Trip Report to Kiev

[msmoby_ru]

OK, this is gonna be a shock treatment for the virgin seekers... and I apologize in advance to the ladies who will read this because it is not intended to shine a bad light on anyone.. but it is still a relevant wake up call..

Ukraine and Russia are producing massive numbers of prostitutes and sex workers.  Some of them are trafficed as in the threads dealing with it.. however, large numbers are doing it on their own.

Not quite sure how these things tie together..

1/ Are you SO certain that ( taken as a proportion of the population)  Russian women are so numerous in the "paid for sex industry" abroad?  I've seen the girls in Cyprus and the UK and Ireland and they are more often Moldovian and Ukrainian these days. A VERY high proportion of them are Moldovian

2/ I'm not sure that these girls always go abroad suspecting they will be prostitutes... Many of them came knowing what they might be getting in to, but they want "big" money and often have youung children whom they leave behind with Mama. I'm not condoning the practise, merely hinting at their motivation.


3/ I'm sure that as a country gets "richer" less women fall foul of this industry.. certianly Cyprus saw a BIG fall off of tourism and ladies from Russia - after some documentaries on Ru tv showing how the girls might be treated - and esp. after the death of a girl.

Thaliand, Dominican Republic (there are private sex resorts for men in the DR that specialize in FSU women), United Arab Emirates, Germany, Venezuela, Czheck Republic and lots of other sex tourism destinations all have a regular flow of independent FSU girls who go there specifically to make some "easy" money.  Just sitting on the bench in Donetsk touts came by almost every day advertising to pretty girls to go to Japan to be "hostess".  On one occasion I was sitting with a bunch of highschool aged kids practicing English when a tout came by.  I asked them if they understood what it "really" was.  This group of 16 year olds had absolutely no doubt what it was about.  As I posted in another thread there are well over 100,000 women in the FSU making a living doing porno on live cams. 

No one should think I am making a judgement by reporting this information.  It is simply a fact that we should all be aware of. 

I would also add that asking a woman about her past sexual experience is in really really bad taste.  Such a topic should be left for really stable married couples and only if the lady brings it up.

In the US we like to have a little tease of sex in our media.. but people remain rather prude in general when compared to most Europeans, or Asians, or Latin Americans...

And to bring this post back to the topic.. I think Ambach found himself a great lady and there is an overall very small chance that she would ever read this thread.

Well, I would ask you to look at which nation produces the biggest amount of sex videos, etc...

As for Ambach's M - only he and she can really know this.

[Ade]

FWIW, I don't associate less sexual hang ups with promiscuity; they are not one and the same thing. Some women I know are as self confident and open about their sexuality and bodies as you could imagine but they've had very few sexual partners.

[Jack]

Ohhhh, one sentence took away your meaning?

Ok Kievstar, not that I think it will make any different, let me add the sentence before and after your quote " I see no difference in girls and I have lived more in Europe than USA in past 15 years".

  I think a more accurate thing about sex is Europe shows it more on television on public channels than USA.  I see no difference in girls and I have lived more in Europe than USA in past 15 years.  Regarding Ukraine girls there all different - some wait till marriage, some first night, and some after meeting there parents, etc.   

You see no difference between Ukraine/Russian women and American women?

To which I will again say,  Wow! Un-friggin believable.

Jack, I know your agency owner.  And you need to have this image that Ukraine / Russia girls are the most innocent in the World. 

Kievstar, please do not try to put your words into my mouth.  I will say today, as I said a few years ago, as I said several years ago, probably before your first trip to Ukraine, in my honest opinion I do believe that over 80% of all Ukraine/Russian women are good, sincere women.  As in all societies you are going to have your percentage of bad people. Ukraine, Russia women are no different, however I do feel that the percentage of good, faithful, caring Ukraine/Russian women is much higher than that of American women.

  But seriously all girls in Ukraine are virgins.  Come on. 

Again, please do not try to reflect your moronic remarks as statements I have made. I have never made any such statement.

  Many girls have been around the block and same goes for the rest of Europe and USA.   

It is my opinion Kievstar that the average Ukraine woman of 19 compared the average American woman of 19 will have had far fewer sexual partners. It is my opinion that the average American woman of 22 compared to the average Ukraine woman of 22 will have had far fewer sexual partners. It is my opinion the average American woman of 28, compared to the average Ukraine woman of 28 will have had far fewer sexual partners.

Well,   that is something we can both agree on.

[kievstar]

Jack, I agree with you all girls in Ukraine have little sex.  Since I have a girlfriend in Ukraine I have to agree with you.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Well, this is very interesting and captivating... What's going to happen next in real life?

I don't understand what you guys are fussing about! As I look at it, if a person doesn't have any religious rules, then he or she is free to do it any time at any point of the relationship, in 3 days or 3 months, how does that matter? It is what it is and circumstances are different. It might have been just natural in that situation for Ambach and M. We know when letters are great one can fall in love before actual meeting, and then when it occurs, it is almost not like the first meeting but a very long awaited hundredth! Only two of them can see and know the depth and sincerity of each other. We, outsiders, do not know, so it's hard to say and we can only speculate.

Ambach, I agree about the ex-wife, if she works for you, that will definitely be a problem for M in my opinion.

[ambach123]

Thanks for the comments Anastassia.

You are correct, we had very strong and good feelings about each other even before we met, and we really connected via emails. We still had trepidations about the meeting. When we met, it took us a few hours to warm up to each other, once we were warmed up we felt tremendous mutual physical attraction.

As I have said, physical chemistry is such a thing, that if does not happen at the get go, it probably would never happen. I think it is very difficult to maintain a marriage without mutual physical attraction.

Coming back to our progress, I thought it would be appropriate to tell her that if we were to get married, she would have to sign a " prenuptial agreement ".

" Is that like a marriage contract ?", she asked.

"Yes", I said. " It will never be used, unless we were divorcing , and in case of divorce you would have no claims to the assets I have already accumulated ".

" I know it is terrible to think of divorce at this time, but marriages do break up , and we need to agree to what happens then in that unlikely situation" I continued.

" At least 30 days before any wedding, you will have the complete agreement in Russian and English,  and a Russian speaking lawyer to help you ". I said.

" But I am confident, we will never divorce " She said.

"Yes, but everyone getting married thinks the same way ". I continued. " In all likelihood, if you wanted a divorce, I would help you out, arrange for you to go back if you wanted to".

Of course, I did not tell her about my ex-wife whom I helped her quite a lot, even after the divorce. ( We also had a pre- nuptial agreement). We are still good friends. Actually I am on friendly terms with many women I have known.

She nodded in agreement. Whether she was just nodding or was agreeing to it, I could not tell, I guess the time will tell. But she knew if we were to marry there would be a prenuptial agreement.

[Shadow]

Shadow, please read some of the threads going on here. Specifically about " Lessons Learned" and about the " Cinderella " and many others.

What impression would you get?

The same I had when I was just starting. That there are a lot of guys with more money than common sense.

Last installment of your trip report:
/sarcasm on
His thoughts : Ok, I have told her about the rules so she knows the issue.
Her thoughts: I f**k him for four days and he is talking about marriage. Americans are easy.
/sarcasm off

[viking]

Shadow, spot on. Four days of sex does not form a basis for marriage. Maybe after  2-3 trips.

[diverboy70]

Ambach:

It sound like you maybe have keeper there! BUT hold your horses a bit, I honestly think you brought up the marriage thing too early! You have to let this take itīs time. You seem to be a wealthy man, why the hurry? Go back a couple of times and let the relationship take it's due time!

I mean, really, do you want a girl that is ready to marry after a few dates?! The FSU ladies are not a different speices, would you marry an American woman after 3-5 dates?

Just my thoughts.....

[ambach123]

Hold your horses Diverboy, keep reading.

I allude her of the prenuptial agreement so that she knows it from the get go. She does not like it, she would walk, early on.

The law also requires that to be valid, such information must have been divulged, relatively early in the process.

[diverboy70]

Ok Ambach, I get your point and will not judge 

Just waiting for the next part of your TP. And i take my hat off for you, I was a bit sceptic by your early posts, but you seem to play this dificult "game" quite good

[Chicagoguy]

I am not sure people should wait for too long on getting engaged. If it is true that some of the wait times for a K-1 are 8 months you could use that time for two more trips. Plus you have 90 days after she arrives.

So there is some extra time built into this process. But I am only speaking about people who have made their final choice.

As for me, it is going to be over 1 year between first meeting and her interview. And 8 months after second meeting. We both feel a third meeting is not necessary as we have bonded so well. In Russia now each "date" costs me $3000.

She has agreed to a pre-nup. This isn't for me but so I could leave a little $ for my children.

[ScottinCrimea]

Hold your horses Diverboy, keep reading.

I allude her of the prenuptial agreement so that she knows it from the get go. She does not like it, she would walk, early on.

The law also requires that to be valid, such information must have been divulged, relatively early in the process.

My impression is that you are following the letter of the law by discussing the prenup early on in the process to CYA, but n my mind, the first visit, after only 4 days, is still way too early to even be discussing the details of a marriage.  I know you set up your timetable and checklist well before your visit and this is one more thing to check off, but it still smacks more of a business deal than a marriage based on love.  Good sex does not equal love.

What I think is unfair is the plan to present her with the details of the prenup and access to a lawyer only 30 days before the wedding.  At that point she has left everything she knows to come to the US on a fiance visa, the wedding is already planned and her alternative is to return home in disgrace to start from scratch or to agree to whatever terms you set.  I'm sure that you have the terms of any prenup already set.  Perhaps it would be more fair to provide her with these details before she commits to come to the US, perhaps at the time that you officially propose, giving her a chance to see what she is getting herself into before accepting.  She could have them translated into Russian and consult with an attorney prior to making any life-altering decisions.

If you are afraid that the prenup would scare her off, of course you will hold back until the last possible moment to hit her with it.  Better to have everything out in the open as soon as possible.  Then you will know if she is agreeing to marry you out of love, not duress.

[kievstar]

I have a question for guys doing prenup.  Why marry someone you have doubts about? I am in top 1% of household earnings in USA and would never marry a woman I had to do a prenup with.  I was married for 10 years (37 years old now) and divorce was very easy I just gave her 60%.  When I marry again and it does not work, than you pay 60% plus again.  Seems like marriage is becoming more like a business deal and wonder if that is why more and more marriages fail?

You can always structure accounts for your children so there protected or create a legal structure so your business is not impacted.  

Prenup to me means you think it will fail or your a greedy person.  Not good traits to start any marriage.  Donald Trump does not really have a marriage - he is a sponsor.  

[Shadow]

Kievstar, not all guys have such a lenient disposition about giving away half their assets, and secondly it does depend if you were married 10 years or 3 months.

[diverboy70]

 I am in top 1% of household earnings in USA and would never marry a woman I had to do a prenup with.  I was married for 10 years (37 years old now) and divorce was very easy I just gave her 60%.  When I marry again and it does not work, than you pay 60% plus again.  Seems like marriage is becoming more like a business deal and wonder if that is why more and more marriages fail?

I don't really know the US laws on divorce but in Finland its 50/50 of ALL assets, not specified in a prenup. With those laws I would absolutely get a prenup, not meaning I would not support her in ways after the divorce!

Talking about marrying a girl not needing a prenup is just stupid. You never know what will happen 10 years down your life.

[AnastassiaAsh]

i totally agree about giving her your prenup much earlier, when she is still back home, before she makes a decision to move and marry you.

[ScottinCrimea]

ambach,  I recall you discussing the pre-nup in terms that made it seem more like blackmail to keep her with you than about fairness to both parties.  You can take this equation completely out of the picture by providing the terms of the pre-nup well before she comes to the US.  In the short term it will provide some proof that she is marrying you or staying with you out of something more than financial considerations and it the long term it would save you attorney fees because you can be sure she would fight it based on the situation you placed her in when you presented it on such short notice and with her in the US and dependent on you.

[Gator]

I thought it would be appropriate to tell her that if we were to get married, she would have to sign a " prenuptial agreement ".

" At least 30 days before any wedding, you will have the complete agreement in Russian and English,  and a Russian speaking lawyer to help you ". I said.

Not Good (NG) for many reasons:

-  The agreement is not "complete" until she has added what she wants to have included (your wife is your equal partner, yes). 

-  To be valid there must be no coercion. 

-  She should have the prenup mostly done before she decides to marry, or otherwise there is not much "give and take" to show the judge presiding over your divorce.

-  These agreements are not simple and are not common among RW; she will have many questions and you will need a few months to finalize everything.

"Yes, but everyone getting married thinks the same way ". I continued. " In all likelihood, if you wanted a divorce, I would help you out, arrange for you to go back if you wanted to".

Suggesting that she go back is a Big NG.  She is making a new life in America.  Why should she return to Ukraine just because the two of you got divorced.

Of course, I did not tell her about my ex-wife whom I helped her quite a lot, even after the divorce. ( We also had a pre- nuptial agreement). We are still good friends. Actually I am on friendly terms with many women I have known.

Never mention it.  It will do you only harm.  Repeat, it will do you only harm.  RW jealousy is unlike any jealousy that I have encountered with any other woman.  Besides, if you are such a prince of a man, your actions with her will prove it, not what you say about yourself.

She nodded in agreement. Whether she was just nodding or was agreeing to it, I could not tell, I guess the time will tell. But she knew if we were to marry there would be a prenuptial agreement.

Actually, this is a good point.  And you should leave it at that for now.  Bring up the prenup again after a couple of trips to discover if the two of you are compatible for marriage.

[ambach123]

A word about the prnups; in 27 of the states the prenups are standardized under a "Uniform Code", which these states have adopted. A simplified format is followed, the judge does not have the authority to nullify it unless some fraud can be proven. The law requires notification only 30 days before the wedding; nonethless in these circumstances a notification early on while she is still in her country is appropriate.

In essence the entire agreement can be summed up as" Whatever assets the husband had before the marriage and any income or appreciation on those assets are NOT marital property". Then these assets are specifically listed. And that is precisely what I told her.

Actually it is not very complicated at all.

At this time my impression is that marriage, if it took place, and did not work out, M would want to go back to her country. I did not sense any specific desire on her part to live in USA. She also agreed that in that unlikely situation, she would go back.

Some of the women I have known including my ex wife are integral part of my life. I don't have sex with them and there is no romantic relationship but I was once close to them and I still help them out. Somehow I would have to handle that.

My ex wife once said, " If I am going to marry someone, I would rather marry someone who treats his exes well, rather than someone who does not, because I may be his ex someday ".

[HiTech]

I just finished my prenup in the last month.

"Whatever assets the husband  OR WIFE had before the marriage and any income or appreciation on those assets are NOT marital property".

If you look at Texas law it almost reads like this statement with a few very strange exceptions, one of those exemptions are dividends on previously owned stock, but capital gains would not be considered communal property.

2nd Everyone in the USA who gets married has a prenup. Most people do not know what it said until they get a divorce. The only difference between having a prenup and not, is the 2 people get to decide before time what happens if they get a divorce. With out one, the state decided what the agreement was.

[kievstar]

Diverboy, your not very nice calling me stupid - joking.  I knew what  I posted would get the reactions it did.  But I do not care much about money and very generous with it.  I guess its the 50% Slavic blood from my mothers side in me.   

Regarding prenup is has to be written so it is fair to both parties.  I would advise guys to make sure there is something for there future wife or a good lawyer will prove it is not valid.  Also, you need to video tape it with English and Russian translations.  Do the video tape or she can always say she did not know what she was signing with a good lawyer.  Most good lawyers make there clients do the video tape.  Do not go cheap here.  Spend a couple thousand dollars and do your prenup right. 

Was interesting the divorce attorney I  used (ex wife and I used same attorney) was telling us how a number of men put in there prenups how many times there wife will have sex with them in a week, what type of sex, when she will be cooking dinner, when she will be home, what time to take kids to school, etc. You guys may want to add this to your prenup as well.

I understand guys want to protect there assets.  But is this a way to control there future wife to stay with them as well?  Men do tend to use money to attract women.  This is just another method. 

 



 

 

[Pike]

Ambach writes:  "I noticed someone leaning over me, it was M "  I want to talk  to you some more". I am somewhat startled, she was wearing a bath robe.

I get up.

" Let us go to the bedroom ", M says.

She gets into the bed, it was obvious that she had more on her mind than talking."

- - - - - - - -

Fogged comments:

Tasteless tales of sexual conquest.

- - - - - - - -

Only PW men and men with excessive feminine traits (along with females) can characterize this situation as a 'conquest' by the man.

Granted there is a portion of PW men and men with excessive feminine traits in the general population.

What is interesting is that RWD seems to attract such men in higher proportions than they exist in the general population.

[Pike]

I have a question for guys doing prenup.  Why marry someone you have doubts about?  Prenup to me means you think it will fail or your a greedy person.  Not good traits to start any marriage.

- - - - - -

Good point raised here.  Solution is to not marry anyone when the marriage might end up in divorce.  Just make correct decision, have no doubts, and a favorite expression seen many times here "don't marry until you are sure of the woman."

The divorce rate in USA and many other countries of the world is around 50%.

But the way to beat these odds is to 'be sure of the woman,' 'make the correct decision,' 'don't marry if you have any doubts,' and many other such similar concepts.

You can even carry this procedure over to other aspects of your life.

With investments, some are great and some turn sour.  You can solve this problem by 'being sure, making correct decision and don't invest when you have any doubts.'

Many are killed in auto accidents every day.  But you can avoid by making correct decision about the route to take to avoid the accidents.  And take care to 'be sure' it is the correct route.

So no need to consider pre-nups, if you follow these simple rules.  And  you could get rich and live a long life also.

[msmoby_ru]

Only PW men and men with excessive feminine traits (along with females) can characterize this situation as a 'conquest' by the man.

Granted there is a portion of PW men and men with excessive feminine traits in the general population.

What is interesting is that RWD seems to attract such men in higher proportions than they exist in the general population.

Would I be correct in assuming PW = "Pussy whipped" ( not an expression common used this side of the pond)

If so, it's use, as a means to categorise men who probably feel a lot different about what makes a good relationship, says even more about you, Pike !