Was the Holodomor Genocide?

[Mir]

Also, in regards to Czarist anti semitism.. if you look at the early stages of the Bolsheviks it appears that the Jews were very much in support of the revolution

Well both Lenin and Trotsky had strong Jewish links. Stalin's victory in the power struggle was in a way the defeat of Jewish Bolsheviks.

[JR]

"Stalin really terrible, but it not bad for Russia because it made Russian people very strong"

My Ex would say things like this also. But she would elaborate. Remember, Stalin is percieved as saving Russia from the Nazis. So although he was a terrible dictator he was also savior. She used to tell me there was a popular joke, "Who killed more Russians? Hitler or Stalin?"

[Ronnie]

Well both Lenin and Trotsky had strong Jewish links. Stalin's victory in the power struggle was in a way the defeat of Jewish Bolsheviks.

Be careful Mir, Weinerin and I have had this little discussion.  She a bright lady but gets more than a little tilted when reminded of the Jewish Bund's role in the early years of Soviet Communism, the Cheka and the Red Terror. 

[Mir]

I actually find it amazing that even after Stalin killed so many of the brightest people of his time that the Soviet Union continued to produce world class science, arts, athletes and so on.
 
Why do you not wonder the same about Germany - which managed in less than 70 years to start three G-d-awful European wars: Franco-Prussian, WW I and WW II? 

I fail to see the logic of second post in relation to the first.

Germany never killed Germans like Stalin did his own people (Russians)

[Shadow]

I fail to see the logic of second post in relation to the first.

Germany never killed Germans like Stalin did his own people (Russians)

[OlgaH]

Germany never killed Germans like Stalin did his own people (Russians)

During Hitlerīs twelve-year reign (1933-1945) the special courts (Sondergerichte) killed 12,000 Germans, the courts-martial killed 25,000 German soldiers, and "regular" justice killed another 40,000 Germans. Tens of thousands other Germans were murdered without judicial process in concentration camps and prisons. About 3 million Germans were held for political reasons in concentration camps or penitentiaries for longer or shorter periods.

http://www.bonhoeffer.com/bak3.htm

"his own people"... There were not any "his own people" for Stalin...

[Sculpto]

If I am not mistaken Trotsky was Jewish.  Again if I am not misunderstanding what I have read there was strong initial jewish support for the revolution because there was a belief that religion would no longer be used a basis for discrimination. 

Obviously that is not how things worked out, but, Stalin was never a Marxist...

[ScottinCrimea]

I fail to see the logic of second post in relation to the first.

Germany never killed Germans like Stalin did his own people (Russians)

Wasn't Stalin Georgian?

[Sculpto]

Wasn't Stalin Georgian?

Yes he was and in fact his "gift" of South Ossetia to Georgia is still being settled..

I think that is in fact a very good example of how the crimes of Stalin have not been sufficiently reconciled even to this day.  How many other South Ossetias are there?  Igushetia comes to mind as does the Crimean Tatar question.. but seriously.. how many other ethnicities have grievances dating back to the Stalin era that remain unresolved? 

[Shadow]

Yes he was and in fact his "gift" of South Ossetia to Georgia is still being settled..

I think that is in fact a very good example of how the crimes of Stalin have not been sufficiently reconciled even to this day.  How many other South Ossetias are there?  Igushetia comes to mind as does the Crimean Tatar question.. but seriously.. how many other ethnicities have grievances dating back to the Stalin era that remain unresolved? 

Russians and probably most of the other 135 ethnicities that were in the USSR.

[Ronnie]

The famines in the newly formed USSR were not naturally caused.  When you rise to power by promising the peasantry that the land currently owned by the rich and the church will be confiscated and given to them, you will of necessity kill or exile those large farmers who own the land.  Without capital to properly plant, cultivate and harvest, low production will result.  Then after you have given the land to the peasants but then decide it actually should belong to the state and seek to "collectize" the farms, killing more famers in the process, you will again create famine.

The lesson here is that statism in any form, whether it's called communism, fascism, socialism or progressivism, doesn't work and only stifles production.  Unless the United States and other countries who think that abandoning free enterprise capitalism and the constitutional rights of the individual, in favor of some tired notion of "social justice," wake up and smell the coffee, these nations are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the Soviet Union.

[ECOCKS]

No, it was selfish, uncaring, arrogant, self-serving, ad nauseum. The genocidal effect was merely an inadvertent consequence.

[Sculpto]

The famines in the newly formed USSR were not naturally caused.  When you rise to power by promising the peasantry that the land currently owned by the rich and the church will be confiscated and given to them, you will of necessity kill or exile those large farmers who own the land.  Without capital to properly plant, cultivate and harvest, low production will result.  Then after you have given the land to the peasants but then decide it actually should belong to the state and seek to "collectize" the farms, killing more famers in the process, you will again create famine.

The lesson here is that statism in any form, whether it's called communism, fascism, socialism or progressivism, doesn't work and only stifles production.  Unless the United States and other countries who think that abandoning free enterprise capitalism and the constitutional rights of the individual, in favor of some tired notion of "social justice," wake up and smell the coffee, these nations are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the Soviet Union.

And I suppose you think the Monsanto plan is somehow better??  How many American Farmers have been put out of business and had their livlihoods destroyed by large scale industrial farming?  What are the consequences of the GM food stocks they are introducing?  What are the consequences of the hormone injected artifically inseminated corn fed force fattened animals we produce in this country?  Even in Russia there is a backlash against the import of US grown Tyson chickens.

Sometimes you show some great wisdom in regards to questions about women, but, I swear your views on society are positively 19th century.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but, you really come off in these comments as more of a propogandist than an informed and independent thinker.

[Mir]

Yes Stalin was Georgian and Hitler was Austrian and Napoleon was Italian>
So what is the point?
Wasn't George W Bush (W of course stands for What a Bloody Disaster) from Texas?

[Ronnie]

And I suppose you think the Monsanto plan is somehow better??  How many American Farmers have been put out of business and had their livlihoods destroyed by large scale industrial farming?  What are the consequences of the GM food stocks they are introducing?  What are the consequences of the hormone injected artifically inseminated corn fed force fattened animals we produce in this country?  Even in Russia there is a backlash against the import of US grown Tyson chickens.

Sometimes you show some great wisdom in regards to questions about women, but, I swear your views on society are positively 19th century.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but, you really come off in these comments as more of a propogandist than an informed and independent thinker.

Sculpto.  This is the problem with arguing with you.  You make no sense.  You are comparing two opposite events as if they are similar.  The Bolsheviks taking over farming with no knowledge on how it is done is comparable to the evolution of highly-efficient agribusiness?  You honestly believe that state bureaucrats know better how to run any enterprise than those who make it their life's work?  You apparently do, and that's where we simply have no common ground.

The consequences by the way, of the application of science to agriculture is efficiency and very high yields so much that we feed ourselves and much of the world at a low cost. 

[Ronnie]

No, it was selfish, uncaring, arrogant, self-serving, ad nauseum. The genocidal effect was merely an inadvertent consequence.

The bolded word is at the core of progressive politics.  We in America are just now beginning to learn what the word really means.

[Sculpto]

The bolded word is at the core of progressive politics.  We in America are just now beginning to learn what the word really means.

Dude look at the results from the last 8 years of conservative politics and then get back to me.

[Ronnie]

Dude look at the results from the last 8 years of conservative politics and then get back to me.

Dude, the last 21 years have been anything but conservative politics.

[ECOCKS]

I don't think they consciously set out to kill the Ukrainian people. My thinking is they simply decided Russians eat first at the table and shipped out the vast majority. The ruse of the famine was merely to make it go down a little smoother when the Ukrainian people were questioning the reasons for the scarcity of food products. So, I think the
"genocide" was an accident. Is there a crime called genoslaughter?

[Ronnie]

I don't think they consciously set out to kill the Ukrainian people. My thinking is they simply decided Russians eat first at the table and shipped out the vast majority. The ruse of the famine was merely to make it go down a little smoother when the Ukrainian people were questioning the reasons for the scarcity of food products. So, I think the
"genocide" was an accident. Is there a crime called genoslaughter?

In the law there is intentional infliction of injury, then there is reckless neglect.  Doesn't much matter which it was.

[ECOCKS]

Hmmmm, so if I take all the food from one house to feed a family down the street (putting aside for a moment that I own both of the homes in question) and the residents die from malnutrition/starvation, then I am guilty of murder?

Russia owned the fields and directed the harvest be sent to a different segment of the population than where the fields were located. Does this constitute deliberate infliction of injury? If they hadn't done this would the other people who received the food have been able to claim genocide against them for NOT shipping them the product?

Under the law, the punishment is quite different for deliberate action versus poor/reckless judgment resulting in  neglect. Hence my semi-question about slaughter versus murder.

[SANDRO43]

Napoleon was Italian

Not quite, having been born in 1769:

Corsica has been occupied continuously since the Mesolithic age. It acquired an indigenous population that was influential in the Mediterranean during its long prehistory. After a brief colonization by the ancient Greeks and an only slightly longer occupation by the Etruscans it was preempted by the Roman Republic and became with Sardinia a province of the Roman Empire. After the fall of the empire it was invaded by a number of short-lived powers before being rescued by the March of Tuscany. As a medieval state speaking a Romance language it became an object of contention between the Republic of Pisa and the Republic of Genoa. The Genoese again took possession of the island in 1347, and governed it until 1729 - interrupted only by a brief intervention of the French in 1553.
 
In 1729 the Corsican Revolution for independence began. After 26 years of struggle the independent Corsican Republic was formed in 1755 under the leadership of Pasquale Paoli and remained sovereign until 1768. The first Corsican Constitution was written in Italian (the language of culture in Corsica until the end of the 19th century) by Paoli. He proclaimed that Italian was the official language of Corsica. The Corsican Republic was unable to eject the Genoese from the major coastal cities. In 1764 Corsica was purchased secretly by France from the Republic of Genoa. After an announcement and brief civil war in 1768-69, Corsica was incorporated into France in 1770, marking the end of Corsican sovereignty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica

[Sculpto]

Hmmmm, so if I take all the food from one house to feed a family down the street (putting aside for a moment that I own both of the homes in question) and the residents die from malnutrition/starvation, then I am guilty of murder?

Russia owned the fields and directed the harvest be sent to a different segment of the population than where the fields were located. Does this constitute deliberate infliction of injury? If they hadn't done this would the other people who received the food have been able to claim genocide against them for NOT shipping them the product?

Under the law, the punishment is quite different for deliberate action versus poor/reckless judgment resulting in  neglect. Hence my semi-question about slaughter versus murder.

Ecocks.. Stalin specifically targeted the Kulaks and others because they were so called class enemies and were difficult to control.  Kulaks in case you didn't know were wealthy peasants who controlled land and had poor peasants working the land in a sort of share cropper arangement which is why they were percieved as class enemies. 

It was both deliberate and negligent.  If a peasant tried to horde some food and was caaght they were shot.  They took the felt shoes off the feet of children.  It was deliberate and systematic murder, one of the basic proofs required in cases of genocide.

[ECOCKS]

Perhaps that is true and one day it may be proven. However, I was asked a question and stated my opinion. If there emerge incontrovertible facts which are substantiated by creditable sources, then my opinion may move one direction or the other. For now, I see it as part of the inefficiency and self-centered decision-making of the communist government. In my estimation, they prioritized their food distribution formula poorly resulting in one portion of their society being favored over another.

No doubting that it was a horrific event for the population resulting in untold millions of deaths, but I stop short of seeing it as a deliberate genocidal act. The jury is still largely out on the subject.

[Sculpto]

The jury is still largely out on the subject.

Did you even read this thread?  There is plenty of proof.. the EU declaring Stalin's actions as crimes against humanity.. my post where Stalin is actually quoted specifically identifying the kulaks for persecution...

what are you basing your opinion on?