Was the Holodomor Genocide?

[ECOCKS]

The facts and variable opinions of the multitude of people who are considering all the different facets of this situation.

There are two sides of this discussion.  A great number of scholars, citizens, governments, lawyers, etc. don't see it as genocide. Rather, they see it as a consequence of the efforts of a poorly organized, inherently ineffective government/economic system attempting to transition their agricultural and industrial infrastructure. You should read up and accept that while you have your opinion, there are, in fact, at least two distinct viewpoints concerning the situation.

[Sculpto]

, there are, in fact, at least two distinct viewpoints concerning the situation.

yeah, one is a revisionist opinion based on a propogandistic desire to assert Russian power and the other is based on facts. 

So, do you deny the holocaust also?  I mean seriously.. the Jews needed the holocaust to get Israel started so maybe it is just a myth, right?

[ECOCKS]

Sigh....

What a waste of time.

[Shadow]

Sculpto answer these:
- Was the killing of Armenians by Turkey genocide ?
- Was the killing of the Inca by the Spanish genocide ?
- Was the killing of the Native Americans by the immigrants genocide ?
- Are the crimes against the Palestinians by Israel genocide ?
- Was the US war against the Phillipines genocide ?
- Is the treatment of the Kurdic people genocide ?

[Mir]

Not quite, having been born in 1769:

That was exactly my point.
Napoleon was born about the time when his place of birth was in the process of becoming a part of France. He did not even speak French till 16. Yet we recognize him as a French general and emperor.
Stalin was born in 1878 when Georgia had been part of Russian empire for 77 years.
So Stalin was a lot more Russian then Napoleon was French IMHO

[Mir]

During Hitler´s twelve-year reign (1933-1945) the special courts (Sondergerichte) killed 12,000 Germans, the courts-martial killed 25,000 German soldiers, and "regular" justice killed another 40,000 Germans. Tens of thousands other Germans were murdered without judicial process in concentration camps and prisons. About 3 million Germans were held for political reasons in concentration camps or penitentiaries for longer or shorter periods

Yes I never said that the Nazi's did not kill any German, question is how many when c/w Stalin.
So lets examine this, from the above it comes to about 100,000.

The number of people killed by Stalin is thought to be at least 3,000,000 and as many as 60,000,000. So lets decide on a rather conservative 20,000,000.
20,000,000 vs 100,000? A no-brainer I think:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

[Shadow]

Compare it to the total population of the country to have a better comparison.
Nobody, even the people in Russia who do not fully condemn him, says Stalin was an angel or denies him killing a large number of people for questionable reasons.
The question of this topic is, did Stalin target Ukrainians as a specific group of people he wanted to kill, or were they just part of his policy that killed millions in other republics as well ?

[Mir]

Compare it whatever method you like, there is no comparasion.

The question of this topic is, did Stalin target Ukrainians as a specific group of people he wanted to kill, or were they just part of his policy that killed millions in other republics as well ?

It was not specific to Ukraine, that is a well known fact.
Why should it be?

[Shadow]

Compare it whatever method you like, there is no comparasion.


It was not specific to Ukraine, that is a well known fact.
Why should it be?

Because it is Ukraine who is playing the 'genocide' card.....

[Wienerin]

Compare it to the total population of the country to have a better comparison.
Nobody, even the people in Russia who do not fully condemn him, says Stalin was an angel or denies him killing a large number of people for questionable reasons.
The question of this topic is, did Stalin target Ukrainians as a specific group of people he wanted to kill, or were they just part of his policy that killed millions in other republics as well ?

I do not know of any Stalin's "policy" of killing millions in any republic - show me if you can please. He was an unprejudiced cannibal. Equal opportunity mass murderer. And yes, there was a definite plan for these specific agricultural people in this specific area - they just mostly happened to be Ukrainians.

Again, there was a targeted  area in Ukraine. The people - wheat farmers, - were robbed under guns of all their grain, including seed grain. Those who tried to resist or even argue were shot on the spot. Then these same areas were sealed tight - those who attempted to leave were shot. Those who satyed were condemned to slow death by starvation and fr4om typhus and other diseases that always arrive on the heels of famine. Foreign correspondents weren't let into the area, no communication with outside world was allowed, foreign aid was rejected - what aid, when everything is in order?

Does it fall under a strict definition of genocide? I don't know - grain farmers are not a people, aren't a race... That it was a deliberate cold-blooded murder - I have no doubt. A 5 year old idiot could figure this out - no food, not allowed to go seek food elsewhere = death.

[Shadow]

Wienerin, people may discuss it is was genocide or not, but they do not discuss the atrocities happening.
Apart from that, trying to make modern day Russia responsible for the actions of a dictator of the USSR over 70 years ago is nothing more than a political trick.

[Wienerin]

Wienerin, people may discuss it is was genocide or not, but they do not discuss the atrocities happening.
Apart from that, trying to make modern day Russia responsible for the actions of a dictator of the USSR over 70 years ago is nothing more than a political trick.

Can you give me one example of Russia - whether Soviet or modern-day Russia - ever apologizing for what was done in her name? Othe countries did - USA apologized for Japanese internment, and for the A-bombs too, Poles apologized for murder of the Jews by Polish hands, Vatican apologized for centuries of persecution of Jews and for the role it played in Holocaust, Germany (after 50 years of beinmg saints in Eastern part and Nazi murderers in Western one) and Austria - continue apologizing and paying reparations, and not only to Jews or Gypsies/Roma...

Russia never did. As to its being another country now - 18 years ago, not 70 - come on! This dog won't run... You cannot be a heir to the USSR on the one hand, and reject out of hand (or more - try to whitewash what was done by the state and its agents, and even dear comrade Stalin on a good day) everything unsavory... then again talk about unity, brotherhood and how Russia, Belarus, Ukraine are in fact one country and should again become thus... including republics of Caucusus et al.

I'm not talking about any reparations, but just a normal human apology...

[Shadow]

Can you give me one example of Russia - whether Soviet or modern-day Russia - ever apologizing for what was done in her name? Othe countries did - USA apologized for Japanese internment, and for the A-bombs too, Poles apologized for murder of the Jews by Polish hands, Vatican apologized for centuries of persecution of Jews and for the role it played in Holocaust, Germany (after 50 years of beinmg saints in Eastern part and Nazi murderers in Western one) and Austria - continue apologizing and paying reparations, and not only to Jews or Gypsies/Roma...

Russia never did. As to its being another country now - 18 years ago, not 70 - come on! This dog won't run... You cannot be a heir to the USSR on the one hand, and reject out of hand (or more - try to whitewash what was done by the state and its agents, and even dear comrade Stalin on a good day) everything unsavory... then again talk about unity, brotherhood and how Russia, Belarus, Ukraine are in fact one country and should again become thus... including republics of Caucusus et al.

I'm not talking about any reparations, but just a normal human apology...

Apology for what ? That the head of a former state whose actions were condemned already after his demise by that same state killed its own citizens ? I guess we should ask Spain for an apology for their occupation of the Netherlands and killing people during our war for freedom. I guess we should ask France for an apology of their occupation of our country during Napoleon. That will help us.

[Wienerin]

Apology for what ? That the head of a former state whose actions were condemned already after his demise by that same state killed its own citizens ? I guess we should ask Spain for an apology for their occupation of the Netherlands and killing people during our war for freedom. I guess we should ask France for an apology of their occupation of our country during Napoleon. That will help us.

First of all, if you do not know for what, the rest is simply in vain. The sad side to this is that Russian as a whole also do not see any reason to apologize for anything with the even more sad results - either they do not know or do not want to know bad pahes in Russia's history. Look at the ugly anti-Ukrainian campaign in the media and on the internet... maybe you'll understand why the apology is needed.

Second - Stalin, as awful as he were, wasn't alone in perpetration this and other atrocities. And you magnify out of all alignment with facts the condemnation after the XX Party Congress. First, the published version of Khrushchev's speech to the Congress was very mild as compared to the "letter" which was sent to Party committees all over the country for closed reading - no discussion - only before the Party members.

Second, there was nothing about Golodomor, deportation of whole nations, state policy of antisemitism, etc. Only about his so-called Personality Cult and purges within the party - which was enough, BTW to put the whole country in shock and to make a rift between us and China, Yugoslavia and Albania.

Shortly after the coup which ousted Nikita Sergeevich the rehabilitation started. And came to its peak, I suppose, only a year ago - when by a national poll Stalin was named the most prominent historical figure in Russia.

There were other nice deeds by Soviet and present-day Russia after Stalin's demise - the latest being the shenanigans in Ossetia and Abkhazia. heartily approved by the majority in Russia (in total denial that Georgia was provoked time and again over the last years)

Not only no apology for anything - steadfast approvement of anything or denial that something happened the way it happened. Even here you see some examples of the point of view that Golodomor either didn't happen, or it was nothing special, or the Ukraine was ungrateful for everything good done to her, etc., etc....

You do not want to see this - it's you business, but do not say please, there's nothing to apologize for, this is not true.

PS Reagan apologized to the Japanese - both domestic and in the HOme Islands. He certainly didn't have to - he wasn't Roosevelt or Truman, was he? The Pope wasn't persecuting Jews for 1500 years, was he? We are all apologetic to the Native Americans and African Americans - while not only we were not there at the beginning of their troubles, even the US wasn't there...

And you at least acknowledge that "Stalin" did something bad in the Ukraine in 32-33. Russia as whole doesn't go even this far. Total denial. As of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afganistan, Chechnya, etc., etc. 

[Shadow]

First of all, if you do not know for what, the rest is simply in vain. The sad side to this is that Russian as a whole also do not see any reason to apologize for anything with the even more sad results - either they do not know or do not want to know bad pahes in Russia's history. Look at the ugly anti-Ukrainian campaign in the media and on the internet... maybe you'll understand why the apology is needed.

Ukraine does not need an anti-campaign. Check up on their politics and it says enough.

Second - Stalin, as awful as he were, wasn't alone in perpetration this and other atrocities. And you magnify out of all alignment with facts the condemnation after the XX Party Congress. First, the published version of Khrushchev's speech to the Congress was very mild as compared to the "letter" which was sent to Party committees all over the country for closed reading - no discussion - only before the Party members.

Second, there was nothing about Golodomor, deportation of whole nations, state policy of antisemitism, etc. Only about his so-called Personality Cult and purges within the party - which was enough, BTW to put the whole country in shock and to make a rift between us and China, Yugoslavia and Albania.

Probably you missed that there were trials held for those who were involved.

Shortly after the coup which ousted Nikita Sergeevich the rehabilitation started. And came to its peak, I suppose, only a year ago - when by a national poll Stalin was named the most prominent historical figure in Russia.

Incorrect. Alexander Nevsky was chosen not Stalin. And do not forget the current fashion of 'changing' poll outcomes by internet sites who want to be 'funny'.

There were other nice deeds by Soviet and present-day Russia after Stalin's demise - the latest being the shenanigans in Ossetia and Abkhazia. heartily approved by the majority in Russia (in total denial that Georgia was provoked time and again over the last years)

And of course forgetting how these regions came to be with Georgia....by decision of your beloved Stalin.

Not only no apology for anything - steadfast approvement of anything or denial that something happened the way it happened. Even here you see some examples of the point of view that Golodomor either didn't happen, or it was nothing special, or the Ukraine was ungrateful for everything good done to her, etc., etc....

You do not want to see this - it's you business, but do not say please, there's nothing to apologize for, this is not true.

PS Reagan apologized to the Japanese - both domestic and in the HOme Islands. He certainly didn't have to - he wasn't Roosevelt or Truman, was he? The Pope wasn't persecuting Jews for 1500 years, was he? We are all apologetic to the Native Americans and African Americans - while not only we were not there at the beginning of their troubles, even the US wasn't there...

And you at least acknowledge that "Stalin" did something bad in the Ukraine in 32-33. Russia as whole doesn't go even this far. Total denial. As of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afganistan, Chechnya, etc., etc. 

The USA has not apologized to their Native people until 2008, 20 years after the apology to Japan and after a long lobby from the inside.
You should try to convince Russians of their need to apologize for the 'internal affair' of the USSR, then perhaps in about 100 years it might happen...
And I have not met any denial regarding the facts which happened in history. Mostly people have been educated about what happened, and the views of both the West and the Russians. It is up to them which view to follow.

[Blues Fairy]

And I have not met any denial regarding the facts which happened in history. Mostly people have been educated about what happened, and the views of both the West and the Russians. It is up to them which view to follow.

Actually in the past few years school history textbooks were rewritten to whitewash Stalin's era and his person in line with Putin's ideology of "strengthening the power vertical" etc.  Present-day school kids who have not lived through the era of collapse of USSR and demotion of communist ideology have no immunity against this new (or not so new) brainwashing and will grow up believing Stalin was a great man.   

[Shadow]

Actually in the past few years school history textbooks were rewritten to whitewash Stalin's era and his person in line with Putin's ideology of "strengthening the power vertical" etc.  Present-day school kids who have not lived through the era of collapse of USSR and demotion of communist ideology have no immunity against this new (or not so new) brainwashing and will grow up believing Stalin was a great man.   

I would like to see the old and new school books to see this confirmed.

[Ronnie]

Children are certainly the easiest to brainwash.  Education is being used as a political tool not only in Russia today but right here in the United States.
Last night, we went to dinner with friends in San Diego's Gaslamp District.  While strolling afterward, a I encountered unrepentant domestic terrorist Bill Ayers looking just as he did in the famous  photo of him proudly standing on the American flag.  I wondered what convention would be in town, especially over the Easter weekend when people usually want to be with families and attend church.  I then noticed a multitude of older people, women with black or gray hair and no makeup. Older men with permed hair and crazed looks on their faces. 

Clearly, I thought, these must all belong to an organization of leftists with no regard for American family traditions.  But who exactly were they?  Upon arriving home, I fired up the internet and checked the San Diego Convention Center's schedule and voila!  The American Educational Research Association (http://aera.net) in town with 16,000 indoctrination operatives, to discuss how to best brainwash our children with their anti-capitalist values.

[Blues Fairy]

I would like to see the old and new school books to see this confirmed.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2163481.ece

Download textbooks here: http://www.alleng.ru/edu/hist4.htm

[Ronnie]

Pavel Danilin, who wrote the chapter on Sovereign Democracy, told The Times that it explained the “core transformation” of Russia under Mr Putin. “We understand that the only guarantee for our democracy is our sovereignty, our strong state, our strong army, our strong economy and our strong nation,” he said. “It is not an ideology. It is just common sense. And my intention was to explain that common sense to teachers.” Mr Danilin, 30, is a projects manager at the Effective Policy Foundation, a think-tank with close links to the Kremlin. He was more blunt about his intentions on his web blog in response to criticism from teachers that much of the book was simply Kremlin propaganda. “You will teach children in line with the books you are given and in the way Russia needs,” he wrote, adding that schools had to “clear the filth and if it doesn’t work, then clear it by force”.

And so it is with "Professor" Ayers; Red Star tatooed on his arm, self-avowed communist, hell-bent on changing the form of government that made America great. 

[Shadow]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2163481.ece

Download textbooks here: http://www.alleng.ru/edu/hist4.htm

Have you read the textbooks itself ? From the quote in the comments it seems that the article does not cover the contents of the textbook.

[Blues Fairy]

Have you read the textbooks itself ? From the quote in the comments it seems that the article does not cover the contents of the textbook.

You said you wanted to read them; I provided the links for your pleasure. 
What exactly is your question to me? I have read enough of them to form an opinion. 

[Shadow]

You said you wanted to read them; I provided the links for your pleasure. 
What exactly is your question to me? I have read enough of them to form an opinion. 

My question was that if you read the comments

The tranlation of the paragraph devoted to Stalin from the new textbook (it was quoted in "The commersant"):
"The person of Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin is one of the most controversial in the politics and the history of our country. It's hard to find any other figure in the history of Russia which brought about such controversial opinions during his rule as well as after his death. For ones he is the hero and the organizer of the victory in WWII, for others - the personification of the evil"
Im my opinion the quoted text is rather balanced and the authors try to avoid the extreme views giving readers the possibility to make their own opinion. Anyway it hardly deserves such extremely dark description which was given in "The Times". This article created an impression that it is "Times" which practices brainwashing and mind-manipulation rather than Russian textbooks-writers.

it seems the article is biased. There for I would like your opinion on the passages in the text book, see if the comment was apologetic.

[Ronnie]

Shadow, it seems you are bucking for a job in the Kremlin.  Is that your goal?  You may be very good at repeating , Da, Da, Da.  But what will happen to you should you dare to ask, Pochemu? and Vladimir Vladimirovich hears you?

[Blues Fairy]

My question was that if you read the comments it seems the article is biased. There for I would like your opinion on the passages in the text book, see if the comment was apologetic.

This particular passage is far from giving an adequate estimate of Stalin's impact on Russia.  One may as well say; the figure of Fidel Castro is one of the most controversial in the history of Latin America; for some he is fearless revolutionary and visionary leader, whereas for others an oppressive tyrant and destroyer of people's freedom. 
Go figure. 

Actually this is not new; Russian historiographer Karamzin was writing his History of Russian State from the point of view of the monarchy.  Lots of "controversial figures" there too.