Was the Holodomor Genocide?

[Mir]

So, you are sort of trying to say we should only assign blame when the actual government is still standing on the same,

Perhaps but agreeably it is not always easy.
Yet to me Mongols and Chinese are quite distinct people like Chines and Japanese. Now Japan did occupy a lot of China at one time but China can't apologize for what Japanese did to say Filipino women.
Yes many years after Genghis there were Mongol emperors ruling from their capitol in China but then there were Mongol rulers in Kiev as well.
Perhaps one of the ways to assign blame would be to give it to any nation/people who claim to be the inheritor of a perpetrator. As in the case of The Khan the Mongolians do claim to be inheritors of his legacy, take pride in his achievements and consider him a national hero and a central figure for legitimizing the existence of Mongolia, while the Chinese consider him just another invader.

[SANDRO43]

And Sandro.. a question for you.. what is Italy's modern relationship with Ethiopia?

Lukewarm, I'd say - we sympathised with Eritrea's struggle to regain independence. In 2008 we finally returned the Axum obelisk - as promised in 1947 - which Mussolini had brought over to Rome in 1937 after the conquest of  Ethiopia.

[Faux Pas]

Hmmm, okay you prefer we assign the apology to Mongolia?

As in the current events, go for the deepest pockets, but if you prefer Mongolia fine. I think he was ruling a lot of territory and China fits better. Besides, Mongolia will be broke if they have to take the blame.

So, you are sort of trying to say we should only assign blame when the actual government is still standing on the same, exact ground? Even if the leaders/politicians who determined the policies and actions are long dead? If they can be dead and we can make the heirs apologize, why can't we just assign blame to those successor governments as well?

Interesting too that we just sort of keep skipping over England, France and Spain continually. Hey what about those Dutch who moved in and squatted on Manhattan?

As for Sioux versus Navajo, what's your beef? They're both easily identifiable since their tribal governments are still active and locatable. That should give you an indication of how the Indians themselves really view the remorseless turn of the historical wheel.

Germany and France's actions in the Congo should be looked at closely too shouldn't they?

I think the UN needs to look deeply into this and setup a Commission to explore these horrible events, apportion blame and then collect the apology and blame from the culprits who benefited or their children or their children's children or their children's children's chil...

Pirates? Starvation? Warlords? Pandemic diseases? Economic crisis? Put those things on the back burner, we have a cause worth rallying to now!

Oh yeah, the Constitution? Check subsequent amendments and governmental acts which substantively addressed the issues those injustices created for those citizens affected. What should we do about those countries who were flagging those ships and bringing the slaves? Also, no one wants to consider those other black tribes which were selling to the slavers. Still going for the obvious target though aren't you?

Looking down I see that Sculpto says Commonwealth is/was the payback system to redress past wrongs. Odd I thought it was how Britain sought to sustain their economic and political positions by establishing a different relationship with some of their colonies when it became clear the colonies wanted independence and Britain couldn't afford to keep them. Egypt, Burma, Somalia, and several others didn't participate while Ireland didn't seem to care for it much either and how EXACTLY did that help any American Indians or blacks sold to American plantation owners by European slavers? The French Congo didn't seem real happy when they rebelled and the Algerians were a bit awkward in their disengagement as well. The Dutch Commonwealth was sort of nipped in the bud by the Japanese at the beginning of WW2 so we aren't too sure how that would have played out I guess.

This isn't even remotely an exhaustive list of colonial powers and their subjugated colonies which pushed out indigenous peoples to make way for exploitation by home country companies and entrepreneurs. However, if the majority of the world feels we need to spin time researching these atrocities, assigning blame and apportioning damages, then lets cut the pie a little slimmer on global warming, human rights commissions, the IMF, WHO and so on while we form an international organization to get to the bottom of this outrage!

NO NO NO dammit! It is imperative to the PC apologist that THEY pick and chose what is due an apology. How dare you have the unmitigated gall to assume every atrocity is due formal apologies and reparations. The whole world must stop and take notice for only their recommendations. Of course according to Sculpt it is every atrocity that was perpetuated by White American/European Males. I assume they'll get around to your miniscule atrocities of the Egyptians and Mongols later in the century. 

[Ronnie]

 I assume they'll get around to your miniscule atrocities of the Egyptians and Mongols later in the century. 

My guess is that will happen right about the time they start referring to BO as "that cowboy in the White House who shot those poor Somali boys who were just trying to feed their families."

Nice shooting by the way..congrats to the Navy!

[OlgaH]

Newest history of Russia 45-2006, by A.V. Filippov.

Blues Fairy, I'm sorry I have missed your post. I downloaded the methodological guide for teachers by A.V. Filippov and of course I looked for information about the history book for schools and I'm in shock    I need to ask my son what history books they use in college.  

[OlgaH]

I just looked through the order by the Ministry of Education of RF the History books by A.V. Filippov and Co are not in the list of school textbooks that are accredited and recommended to use. 

http://www.fsu-expert.ru/node/1444

[Shadow]

Translation:
Of course a special drama and tension in the Soviet period was caused by the peculiar personality of Stalin.  However, the impact of his psychological character on the political and economic development was rather secondary compared to the role of objective circumstances.  The accelerated modernization of the country required a corresponding system of power and the formation of a ruling apparatus able to implement this course.  These reasons largely explain the nature of Stalin's overturn, which became in its scale "a revolution from above". 
Newest history of Russia 45-2006, by A.V. Filippov.

His passages on the latest politics are even more brilliant.

I do not think that the average student will read this as : Stalin was a madman, but in these times it helped.
If they do use this in schools, I hope the teachers will give the correct perspective.

[OlgaH]

I just looked through the order by the Ministry of Education of RF the History books by A.V. Filippov and Co are not in the list of school textbooks that are accredited and recommended to use. 

http://www.fsu-expert.ru/node/1444

I have found the book by A.V. Filippov "History of Russia" (just basic level) at the end of the order as "allowed". It means that schools teachers are allowed to make their choice.

I do not think that the average student will read this as : Stalin was a madman, but in these times it helped.
If they do use this in schools, I hope the teachers will give the correct perspective.

Some teachers will give the correct perspective . There is a big scandal about the book by A.V. Filippov. Many teachers are against that book. Honestly, I hope the book will never will be in the list of recommended.

[Shadow]

A new twist in the story.

Ukraine’s new take on Holodomor: Moscow’s not to blame

15 June, 2009, 17:50

The head of Ukraine’s security service has said that Holodomor, the mass famine of the early 1930s, was done by Ukrainian authorities of the time and has nothing to do with today’s Russia.
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Valentin Nalivaichenko was replying to a question on whether the investigation of the events may lead to a lawsuit against Russia, which is the legal successor of the Soviet Union and can be held accountable. For example Latvia is seeking compensation from Moscow for “years of occupation” by the Soviet Union and spent several years calculating the sum of the alleged damage.

“The crime was committed in Ukraine’s territory. Its organizers and perpetrators will be determined by the investigation. Declassified documents make it clear that they were Ukrainian officials, members of the Ukrainian communist party and the repressive institutions existing in Ukraine at the time. We will investigate these crimes ourselves and submit the case to Ukraine’s court,” Nalivaichenko said, as cited by the Interfax news agency.

He added: “As for a third party – be it Russia or any other nation – there are no claims on our side.”

The history of Holodomor is one of the most painful issues in relations between Kiev and Moscow. Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko and his supporters insist that the famine was a deliberate genocide of Ukrainian nationals masterminded by Joseph Stalin. The commemoration of the events is an important part of Ukrainian political and social life today.

Russia argues that the famine was caused by a combination of bad management, unfavourable weather and disastrous collectivization policies, which lead to the tragic events and cost numerous lives of many ethnic groups over several territories and not just Ukraine alone.

The dispute has resulted in several scandals over the last several years, ranging from photos of America during the Great Depression republished as those of Ukraine during the Holodomor to when President Yushchenko was sharply rebuffed by Israeli officials after comparing Holodomor to the Holocaust by Nazi Germany.

Note: I heard the story on the Russian First channel news, its not just this (tabloid) site reporting.

[JR]

Interesting. What no one can say but everyone would like to know is "What would have happened if the Ukrainian Communist Party had told Stalin "No."

My personal guess is that Russian armor would rolled into town and forced everyone into submission.

[Boethius]

The conclusion is nothing scholars of the Holodomor have not stated for decades.  The "Russians are responsible" argument was a bit of a canard, and never had any traction among serious scholars.  It was played by Yushchenko, primarily, for political purposes.

Stalin viewed collectivization as vital.  He believed Ukrainian nationalism (encouraged under NEP and the corresponding policy of "Ukrainization") would be broken if the peasantry were broken.  By the time of collectivization, Ukraine's intelligentsia had been wiped out.

The CPSU demanded collectivation be enforced.  Not all members of the Ukrainian Communist Party were ethnic Ukrainians.  Kaganovich and Molotov were the enforcers of collectivization in Ukraine, and strongarmed the Ukrainian Communist Party at its 3rd Congress in 1932.

Those who enforced collectivization were predominantly ethnic Ukrainian communists who supported the party.

[brad5959]

Wasn't Stalin Georgian?

Stalin was from Georgia, and he was originally a bank robber before he became a politician.  and yes, I do believe that Holodomor was genocide.

[brad5959]

2012 is fiction said:
a couple of you are not going to like the following comment, but, from what i am reading it is more than appropriate.

Your criticism of so called PC ideas is in fact a very clear and robust indication of your priveldge in this world as a white American/European male.  You demonstrate your arrogance and disregard for human rights and the right of self determination with your statements.  It is in fact the exact words you use that antagonize the people who have been the victims of colonialism, genocide and other forms of discrimination and repression.  Your words are the words of the oppresor.  You can not consider yourself to be enlightened, on the contrary you are a continuation of the crimes you mock.

I know you will not agree and will probably take offense, so be it.  But, it is exactly because of the kind of langauge that you are using that there exists demands for reperations.  You are deniers of history and are in complete denial of the benefit that you recieved as a result of past criminal acts.  Nothing I say, or anyone else says, is going to change your mind or views until you decide to go see for yourself.  

and I say:
to the victors go the spoils!!!!!!!!!

[Boethius]

Stalin was from Georgia, and he was originally a bank robber before he became a politician.  and yes, I do believe that Holodomor was genocide.

No, he was in the Bolshevik Party at the time he robbed the bank.  By the broadest definition, he was a politician at that time.  However, I would call him a ruthless, cold blooded killer rather than a true politician.

[brad5959]

No, he was in the Bolshevik Party at the time he robbed the bank.  By the broadest definition, he was a politician at that time.  However, I would call him a ruthless, cold blooded killer rather than a true politician.

well said.  I often wonder, if Hitler had actually won the war, would FEWER russians have died in the years after the war??  Hitler most likely would have finally been asassinated, and there were many German officers who wanted to integrate with the Ukrainians and Russians in a peaceful manner. 

[Shadow]

well said.  I often wonder, if Hitler had actually won the war, would FEWER russians have died in the years after the war??  Hitler most likely would have finally been asassinated, and there were many German officers who wanted to integrate with the Ukrainians and Russians in a peaceful manner. 

I sincerely doubt that. Also please check up on your history, the Holodomor was BEFORE the events of WW2. Without these actions, Russia would have been stronger and resisted the German invasion more efficient.

[tim 360]

well said.  I often wonder, if Hitler had actually won the war, would FEWER russians have died in the years after the war??  Hitler most likely would have finally been asassinated, and there were many German officers who wanted to integrate with the Ukrainians and Russians in a peaceful manner. 

But Holodomor was in 1933?  And to postulate whether Hitler and his SS would have been more gentle on the Russian people than Stalin (if Hitler won) really is a moot point and pointless to conjecture about--like if Hitler won the Russian Front the Allies would have had a more difficult time.  And Hitler considered Ukrainians and Russians to be sub-human and ripe for extermination.

[Boethius]

But a lot of Soviets died after WWII as well.  The Bolsheviks were still fighting anti Soviet forces in Western Ukraine in the 1950's.

brad, as tim noted, the Nazis viewed the Slavs as Untermensch, an inferior race, just slightly above the Jews.  They were to be used as slave labour and worked to death.  Ukraine was to be repopulated with Germans.  Over 3 million Ukrainians were deported as slave labourers to Germany in 1941-1942 (over 4.1 million Soviets).  There, they wore badges identifying themselves as OST.  Most died in Germany, either from working conditions, or in Allied bombing raids.  Those that survived either returned, or escaped to the West by claiming they were Poles.  Millions of Soviets also died in the concentration camps.  The human guinea pigs used to "test" the gas at the concentration camps were Red Army soldiers.

I know a lot of Ukrainians who were slave labourers.  They say there was no difference living under either communism or fascism.

[Gtex]

Brad,

Be very careful not to discuss these issues until your understanding is much more complete.   As it is, most Eastern Europeans think the depth of their knowledge of history to be much greater than most Americans (not an unfounded assumption).  You show some knowledge and familiarity and that is good.

Still, do not push it, you will quickly be over your head and losing respect.  Plus, this whole issue is clouded by POV (point of view).  We have our version of WWII history, The Russians have their version of "The Great Patriotic War" and various Ukrainians will have other opinions. 

Understand this, in Nuremberg one allied representative said, "Yes, we (the allies) won the war, but Ukraine paid the bill."  It would take you a long time of study to understand the truth of that.

As to Hitler, Valkyrie and the other plots of assassination where the result of the change of fortunes in war.  True, there had been earlier attempts, but his successes stymied their development.  Had he won, he would probably been in power till natural causes intervened.  The Junker class may not of approved of some of his tactics (concentration and extermination camps), but co-operation with the slavs was only tactical, not strategic and never very popular. 

In total, Stalin is believed to be responsible for the death of many more Russians than Hitler... MANY!

[Daveman]

Okay, while perusing various sites reading up on the Holodomor sites I've come across various translations of the word

1) murder by hunger
2) death by famine
3) murder by starvation

these three, while similar do have semantic differences.

so, those of you you speak Russian fluently, what is actually the best translation?  and would this word apply to a group of people who died because of a natural famine?  Would it also apply to ONE person who starved to death?

[Boethius]

It's a Ukrainian, not a Russian word.  "голод" (pronounced, roughly "holod" by Ukrainian purists, don't get me started on "h" and "g" in Ukrainian) means hunger.  "мор" means pestilence or plague, but "мор" likely comes from the verb "морити", which means to kill/exterminate.  I think it is comes from from "морити голодом", which translates to "to kill by means of starvation".

[SANDRO43]

I think it is comes from from "морити голодом", which translates to "to kill by means of starvation".

Or starving to death, for short .

[brad5959]

But a lot of Soviets died after WWII as well.  The Bolsheviks were still fighting anti Soviet forces in Western Ukraine in the 1950's.

brad, as tim noted, the Nazis viewed the Slavs as Untermensch, an inferior race, just slightly above the Jews.  They were to be used as slave labour and worked to death.  Ukraine was to be repopulated with Germans.  Over 3 million Ukrainians were deported as slave labourers to Germany in 1941-1942 (over 4.1 million Soviets).  There, they wore badges identifying themselves as OST.  Most died in Germany, either from working conditions, or in Allied bombing raids.  Those that survived either returned, or escaped to the West by claiming they were Poles.  Millions of Soviets also died in the concentration camps.  The human guinea pigs used to "test" the gas at the concentration camps were Red Army soldiers.

I know a lot of Ukrainians who were slave labourers.  They say there was no difference living under either communism or fascism.

read "The Service" the memoirs of General Reinhard Gehlen, in particular chapter 3.  most of the Generals involved in the eastern campaign did not agree with Hitlers abhorant ideaology of referring to Slavs as untermensch.  on the contrary.

[Boethius]

And yet, over 4.1 million "Untermenschen" were taken by the Nazis as slave labourers to Germany, and those generals did nothing to stop it.  

[brad5959]

no doubt that Ukraine and her people have suffered greatly, more than any other nation in the FSU before, during and after WWII.