TR to Moscow

[Misha]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2735.msg52689#msg52689
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=4117.msg74973#msg74973

Read your examples. Very nice illustration of the phenomenon. There are many false friends of the linguistic sort in English and French as well. In English we "introduce" two people and if you use "introduire" in French it is incorrect. You "present" in French as opposed to introducing. The verb "introduire" in French taken literally would have some less than honorable overtones as the verb "introduire" would mean inserting someone somewhere

[Sculpto]

Misha.. I understand your point, however, in the case of the Ukrainian girl that was not what happened.  She had very strong opinions.. especially about blacks.. even though she had never met a black person in her life.  Afer I chastized her for her commentary and told her about my friend the Minister she asked a lot of questions and wanted to meet some black people.  Unfortunately, as was typical with this woman, when I introduced her to any of my friends from any background she seemed to just withdraw into herself and get drunk in a corner if it was a party or talk on her cell phone to her Russian friends.  Frankly I found her rather uncultured and crude.  That is why we are no longer friends.

[Ooooops]

I don't think I'm allowed to talk about myself on Sculpto's thread anymore..

I think Sculpto will forgive you if you answer one question    So, how long did you live in US?

[Ooooops]

Normal is one of these words. The meaning is the same, but it is used a bit differently. When asked, for example, "как дела" or how are things in Russia, you can answer "нормально" or "normal." Likewise, you encounter the expression "ненормальные люди" in Russian. The meaning can change on the context, but overall in Russian it is not quite as derogatory as it is comes across in English as "not normal." It can be used to apply to people who are a bit crazy, out of the ordinary, eccentric, etc.... 

Misha, I don't think "normal" is "one of those words"      If you say in Russian "ненормальные люди" - it is pretty much derogatory, no matter which way you turn it... 

[possum]

I think Sculpto will forgive you if you answer one question    So, how long did you live in US?

I've never been TO the US.. But in this day and age you don't have to live in a place to know most of the stuff that's going on there..

[Misha]

Misha, I don't think "normal" is "one of those words"      If you say in Russian "ненормальные люди" - it is pretty much derogatory, no matter which way you turn it... 

Again, depends on the context. Was reading one blog where one woman writes: "What are "ненормальные люди" up to on their birthday? They have interviews and looking for a job." Here it was not derogatory, in the same way that a woman in Canada or the United States would be saying: "I must be crazy looking for a job on my birthday." They are not implying that they should be locked up in an insane asylum, rather they are poking fun at themselves highlighting that their behavior is contrary to the norm. Language is all about context and it is challenging trying to do it in your second language.

[Sculpto]

I've never been TO the US.. But in this day and age you don't have to live in a place to know most of the stuff that's going on there..

HAHAHAHAHA  good one Possum.  And if I said I know "most stuff" going on in Russia because I watch Russia today news every day and read some articles on the internet wouldn't you laugh at me also?

and dude.. don't worry about posting here in this thread.. you are welcome..I don't hate you.. I just disagree with you on the fundamentals of a lot of things.. but you should know I actually do have a few friends who are even further to the right than you..

[possum]

HAHAHAHAHA  good one Possum.  And if I said I know "most stuff" going on in Russia because I watch Russia today news every day and read some articles on the internet wouldn't you laugh at me also?

Not if you were fluent in Russian, I wouldn't.. If you were fluent in Russian and listened to Echo Moskvy as well as Radio Mayak for several hour a day every day, and if you watched a lot of Russian TV in Russian, I would most definitely not laugh at you.. And besides, it's not my style to laugh at people I disagree with politically.. that seems to be a liberal thing..

[Sculpto]

Well.. up until today things had been going very well with my girl.  Before I post about the details I am asking people to please be very careful about how they respond.  I am a bit on edge and I do not want to have any misunderstandings or reactionary postings.

OK, so some things have come up that have origins in different parts of the relationship but are adding up to some doubts.

First of all she is still in Moscow and really struggling to make money.  From what I can tell she is barely keeping it together and the stress is making her question a lot of of things.  She is staying on the couch at her friends place.  She finally started using the money I set aside for her but it is not enough and I think she is having a lot of guilt feelings about using it.  I can hear a despondency in her voice that is new and I am not sure what I can do about it.

That is the smaller issue.

It gets more complicated because she seems to be "see-sawing" about her feelings about the relationship.  Since I left Moscow her feeling has been we are destined by God to be together, then, today, she suddenly doesn't know what she wants.  Overwhelmingly she is has been positive about the relationship but today her fears and/ or doubts really came out.  I did my best to reassure her, but, I can't say that her showing doubt gave me confidence, rather on the contrary. 

I have the strong feeling a lot of this is coming from simple uncertainty about what this future would be like.  No matter how much I have described things she can't really have a picture that is clear.  Plus, and I think this is the biggest factor, after waiting a whole year in the first place I think she may feel that now things are almost like a whirlwind that she can not control.  Both of our mothers are crying in happiness.. and exchanging gifts with each other.. all our friends know and are happy for us.. February visits are being planned and papers are being gathered to get a head start on visas. 

I am also really sure she is not accustomed to someone really genuinely caring for her.  I know this because she said so.. "you vere good.. more than need" and then she said "you vere different than Russian man". 

Anyway.. I am not sure what I am asking for from the group..

[Mishenka]

Eric, life is insane for all of us. Up till now everything between you two was all good. This may just be a short season of confusion. It's this way for all of us now.  All we hear is bad new on the financial crisis, money is scarce all over the globe. She is feeling insecure like the rest of us.  Be happy she is open and honest with you enough to share her heart.  Maybe give her some time and let her have some space to emote. She will be fine. What is meant to be will be.

Mishenka

[ScottinCrimea]

It sounds to me like a perfectly normal stage in a developing relationship.  I would worry more if she never expressed doubts.

[groovlstk]

It sounds to me like a perfectly normal stage in a developing relationship.  I would worry more if she never expressed doubts.

I'd agree w/this (as long as her doubts aren't overwhelming and consuming). My wife needed constant reassurance during our courtship after we became serious and started planning for her to relocate to the US. You have to be solid as Sears during these times, she's looking to you to calm her fears. (Fears which are perfectly natural and justifiable, I might add.) If you show any doubts or indecisiveness you'll make matters worse and she'll lose confidence in you. It's only natural to have your own doubts and insecurities about a long-distance relationship, but for the sake of your relationship you'd better bury them deep and never let her get even a glimpse.

[Sculpto]

Good advice guys.  After I posted yesterday I followed my instincts and did exactly what has been suggested.  I called her again and told her not to worry about stuff that I was with her and that I will worry and take care for her and she doesn't have to worry about me because I am committed and I will not give up.  This seemed to calm her down.  We talked again briefly this morning and I can tell she is still upset and she didn't want to talk a lot, but, we seemed to have gotten past what appeared as a crisis of confidence.  I am going to give her some space over the next few days and I am pretty sure all will be good.

[UTRO]

I guess I am lucky or unusual. Svetlana has never expressed any doubts about our relationship or coming to Canada, ever, and has been as of much support to me as I her. She's been like a Greek Column in her helping me to deal with my Ex. Without having to go through all your postings Eric, how old is your GF?

[Sculpto]

I guess I am lucky or unusual. Svetlana has never expressed any doubts about our relationship or coming to Canada, ever, and has been as of much support to me as I her. She's been like a Greek Column in her helping me to deal with my Ex. Without having to go through all your postings Eric, how old is your GF?

You hit on the basis for the problem Utro.. she is young.. 20's...  there are two complications.. first she was never looking to come to the USA or leave Russia in the first place.. second, she wasn't even looking for a relationship when we found each other.  Her interest in coming here is because of me. 

[UTRO]

You hit on the basis for the problem Utro.. she is young.. 20's...  there are two complications.. first she was never looking to come to the USA or leave Russia in the first place.. second, she wasn't even looking for a relationship when we found each other.  Her interest in coming here is because of me. 

Well Svet was 28 when I met her, I was 44. Yep, these are definitely two things I didn't have to deal with.
Svet had some schooling in the West and was therefore accustomed to life here. She likes what the West has to offer. However, she was completely honest with who she wanted to be with. Up until she met me, no man had met her expectations and criteria of a lifelong partner. She has dated both Russian and Western men, rich and poor, unmarried and divorced, with kids and without...... and many who proposed to her. But, she chose to be with me because of everything I am and not
Don't give up Eric. All of our situations are different and there really is no one answer to dating success and failure. Just avoid the blatant obvious.

Dave.

[Sculpto]

Dave..
I am in no way giving up.  I was just caught a bit off gaurd because everything has been good since I got back.  The only thing that really bugs me is it has been so hard for her to get on the computer and I am sure the lack of chat sommunication is contributing to the problems.  I understand she doesn't have easy access and is working most of the time so it is hard not to cut her some slack, but, it is really difficult for us to communicate with depth on the phone.  Her langauge skills are passable but by no means deep, and I am justa beginner in Russian, plus long distance static on cell phones.. makes it hard.  She was telling me she was cooking soup and I thought I heard her say "I am cooking stupid".  LOL.  I was thinking WTF??  Why am I stupid???  LOL.  Anyway, I am sure we will get through this.  And, I am sure she will be better once she gets out of Moscow and goes back to Tomsk in a couple more weeks and then she has her computer at home and we can chat every day.  In the meantime.. angst...

[GoodOlBoy]

Sculpto, IMHO, your young lady is going to need A LOT of reassurances during this LONG process. Due to her tender age, you will need to be the "Real Man" (Russian women's phrase) in this relationship.

Like other members, my wife was older than your lady, and there were no doubts in her mind as to what she wanted (and what she didn't want) from me. I NEVER had to reassure her during our relationship EXCEPT during her interview in Moscow. She was a little nervous the day before the interview and we spoke several times on the telephone until she was approved for her USA Visa.

Look, I have read a lot of your post's and you seem like a good guy. I believe that everything will be OK for you two.

Just remember one thing, you must have A LOT of PATIENCE and STRENGTH....PERIOD.

[Sculpto]

Sculpto, IMHO, your young lady is going to need A LOT of reassurances during this LONG process. Due to her tender age, you will need to be the "Real Man" (Russian women's phrase) in this relationship.

Like other members, my wife was older than your lady, and there were no doubts in her mind as to what she wanted (and what she didn't want) from me. I NEVER had to reassure her during our relationship EXCEPT during her interview in Moscow. She was a little nervous the day before the interview and we spoke several times on the telephone until she was approved for her USA Visa.

Look, I have read a lot of your post's and you seem like a good guy. I believe that everything will be OK for you two.

Just remember one thing, you must have A LOT of PATIENCE and STRENGTH....PERIOD.

GOB.. I agree with everything you said.  My feeling right now is she is conflicted because she never expected this to happen...

The next part of the psychology is more complicated and I have been thinking about how to describe it since yesterday.. so.. I will take my best shot.

On one hand my girl has a very high self esteem.  She is very proud and for her age exceptionally accomplished professionally.  But, on the other hand she has a lot, maybe even a very large amount, of insecurity in her personal life.  Without getting into private details she has been through a lot and sometimes I feel she envelopes herself in work to avoid dealing with more personal issues.  She has said many times, as I posted about in the past, that her heart and soul are dead.  She restated that yesterday.  She said also, "I feel dead inside, you need woman who is alive".  The problem is I do not see her actions, in general, being the same as her comment.  She is deeply soulful and has a very warm heart, but, she doesn't seem to see it. 

Where I worry about how my actions will be percieved is that I tend to be very nurturing of people.  I am the one others come to with problems.  I am the one who gets things done.  I am the problem solver.  But, my approach is really gentle and I often worry that she will confuse my gentleness with weakness.  When I was there and she asked me about something relative to the topic I wrote on apiece of paper "kindness is not weakness".  I am not sure she understood. 

[Sculpto]

Well.. that didn't last long.  Finally she got on Yahoo and we just had a nice long chat.  She spent the evening cooking borsh and it seems to have fixed her mood.  All is back to normal.. crisis averted.  She goes back to Tomsk in a few days and wouldn't let me pay for her train ticket.

play by play brought to you by the nutty guy in California. 

[GoodOlBoy]

She has said many times, as I posted about in the past, that her heart and soul are dead.  She restated that yesterday.  She said also, "I feel dead inside, you need woman who is alive". 

Sorry Sculpto, I missed this in your previous postings. Man, this sounds kind of sad. I hope she can work through these feelings.

I am the problem solver.  But, my approach is really gentle and I often worry that she will confuse my gentleness with weakness. 

Every relationship is different. My wife wanted a "strong" personality in her husband. I was in the Marine's, many years ago, so I have had a pretty strong personality. The approach you are using would definitely NOT work with my wife. I have friends like you (I think) and Marina sees them as weak. Not true, of course, but that is her opinion.

So if your personality works for your lady, then it's all good !  

[Sculpto]

Sorry Sculpto, I missed this in your previous postings. Man, this sounds kind of sad. I hope she can work through these feelings.

I am sure she will.  But, I have had the sense that as long as she is in Russia she will never deal with it.  I do not believe there is a safe environment there for dealing with personal loss or PSD in any way or form.  I have talked about this extensively with her and I am not sure she understands how different life can be.  I do not quote my Dad very often, but, he said something once that is in some way relative.  My Dad grew up on the streets of NYC.  His family was very poor and they struggled to survive.  At some point after he married my Mom he managed to get a good job in the retail sector and rapidly moved up.  Eventually he was given an opportunity to go to work for a company in Kansas.  The farthest he had ever been out of the Apple was the Catskills.. LOL.  So, we made a family trip to Kansas and the P's decided to give it a go.  So, imagine a NYC Jewish family from the projects in Brooklyn adapting to suburban life in Kansas far from the deli, good chinese food and the hustle and bustle.  Anyway.. my Dad told me a couple years ago that he never realized life could be so sweet until he moved away from New York.  He thought that life was simply a never ending struggle to survive in between disappointments.  Somehow, I get the feeling my girl is in that same mindset.  She works and applies herself but somehow fate always disrupts her plans.. events happen that shake her belief system... I think she is both enamored by my "way of being" but I think she is also afraid to totally embrace it lest it not be true or something beyond control would interfere to destroy it. 

Every relationship is different. My wife wanted a "strong" personality in her husband. I was in the Marine's, many years ago, so I have had a pretty strong personality. The approach you are using would definitely NOT work with my wife. I have friends like you (I think) and Marina sees them as weak. Not true, of course, but that is her opinion.

So if your personality works for your lady, then it's all good !  

I can understand where your wife is coming from.  To be 100% honest at a much earlier stage in my life I was a real hard ass with women.  I was a founding member of the 4F's club.  I was that short chubby guy who somehow always had some new hotty on his arm.  It was all charm and good game on my part.  But, it was also really empty.  After years of living that way one girl finally turned it around on me and the player got played.  At the time it was happening I didn't even realize that I was in love with her or that she was setting me up for a big fall.  But, afterwards when I had time to reflect without the rage I felt in the moment I actually realized it was my own shallow perspective that allowed it to happen and karmic repayment for all the broken hearts I left behind.  I like to believe I have evolved in meaningful ways and that what I give to the world, and especially those who I love, is in some way more compassionate, more cultured, and really from the heart.  It is hard to strike a balance between the instinct to dominate and a more intellectual foundation of fairness and cooperation.  But, as I have claimed and stated in other threads I believe a fundamental change in human behavior is required for us to survive and there is no better place to begin than with "yourself" and those that are close to you. 

I have talked about this also with my girl and I can tell she is both excited and doubtful.  I am pretty sure if I can get her over here and spend some time focused on promoting her soul and heart she will blossom out of her funk.  I am not trying to be the guy on the white horse.. I love her with her broken heart but I can see if she can escape the negativity that seems to permeate a part of the Russian soul she could be a lot happier. 

I would also add as I have said many times that I do come into contact with a lot of Russians through my work.  Last Wednesday I met with a long time client who is from Kiev.  I hadn't seen him and his wife for some time so we had the chance to catch up and I showed them photos of me and my lady.  Very quickly the subject came to life in the FSU compared to life in the USA.  I think everyone can guess what their opinion on the topic was.  I actually spoke to them about the "funk" my girl is fighting and they really encouraged me to get her over here as they believe she also will blossom in ways that can not be predicted.  (Right after they told me to watch out that she is not a GCG)  They, like almost every other Russian or Ukrainian I know, still love Mother Russia in their hearts, but also believe they were able to evolve into better people and have a much better life after they arrived here, even if they struggled a lot in the beginning.

[Misha]

I actually spoke to them about the "funk" my girl is fighting and they really encouraged me to get her over here as they believe she also will blossom in ways that can not be predicted. 

Well, it is also probable that she will not leave her "funk" behind and their "funk" may actually grow exponentially as they deal with culture shock.

[Sculpto]

Well, it is also probable that she will not leave her "funk" behind and their "funk" may actually grow exponentially as they deal with culture shock.

Doesn't that depend in some degree to the level and quality of support they get from their man?

[Misha]

Doesn't that depend in some degree to the level and quality of support they get from their man?

Well, support from the man helps, but we can't exactly bring about miraculous changes in personality and temperament. My reasoning is simple: a woman who is happy and content in Russia, will be happy and content in her new home if she has a decent husband, though she may go through a few rough patches with culture shock. A woman who is morose (a 'funk' as you call it) or is dealing with other issues in Russia, will inevitably be even more more and dealing with even more issues in her new country regardless of how much support she gets from her man.