How NOT to start out... An AFA tour to Odessa on UK TV last night

[msmoby_ru]

Last night I recorded a prog on C4 in the UK. It is about a single British journo who is looking at how folk met their partners.

This  was a group of US citizens on a AFA ( A Foreign Affair ) tour to Odessa

I tried to write notes as I watched it.. these are some of her ( and my ) observations...


Whooops.. it's part one and it's focusing on a group of US guys on a tour to Odessa with AFA ( A Foreign Affair ) - You didn't know who featured before the programme started.

Dawn Porter ( journalist / presenter is NOT impressed and who could blame her? 


Wow.. now she's at a school where the women are shown how to "pleasure" the WM and Dawn says " WOW, I bet these women are good in bed - if they are prepared to do the things they are "trained" in !! ))

Back with the boys, now.. discussing the presents they've bought and if they hope to get a woman in their bedroom -" if she was interested, in that would turn me off on the first meeting", he says...

Dawn seems to be focusing on a businessman who has been divorced three times, and two truck drivers...  as well as Kevin..

Keven. a 43 yr old who cares for his Mum, and is a bit heavy on the Cologne, has brought photos of his life, back home, including the "ex" :-o - he has also believed that spraying "Axe" .. ( Lynx" to us in the UK) will make him "irresistible"   )))

He is an "expert" and knows all about the erogenous zones....he knows the neck is the key, apparently Dawn wants to escape from his room - QUICKLY..

Part 3 - the evening of a social

Elena of AFA ( she met her Hubby via the internet and has been married 10 years and he is involved in the biz,  explains they are careful to screen "bad boys" out.   She also asks Dawn to stop concentrating on Kevin - the "slimiest" client and how he made the company look ( BAD) .. she has told us the clients are mainly Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, etc.

Mark ( the biz man - divorced three times ) has been convicted for assault - as has to be disclosed .. and Dawn confronts him about this.  She wonders if he is "safe" but can't decide.

The Odessa women wonder why the US guys don't look for US women - "US women want it all and give nothing " is the response..

Dawn decides the women are more interested in the food and drink - than the men, at the social.

Frank - the policeman from California - is disappointed as none of the girls he pre-wrote to ( who promised they would come) have turned up !

Kevin tells the girls is is 39 ( he is 43 ) and even Dawn is embarrassed  

Dawn, is taken with an overweight truck driver , Jean, and sets him up with a lady. They are still chatting - in spite of a rule - that they are supposed to "mix"..at the end of the evening.

Marc, the "biz" has hit on Irina - 26 - an interior designer. Irena tells Dawn that she doesn't physically find him attractive, but he seems a "good man".

Whoops .. Irina is now chatting up Frank the policeman, while Dawn talks to Marc.

Marc spots them flirting and hits on Dawn !! 

Can you keep up with this ?!

Marc tells Dawn he is "pleased" Frank and Irina are getting on well and decides not to take her to dinner - like she would be interested.

Jean the truck driver and his lady go to Dinner


Marc HAS taken Irina to dinner and quizzes her re Frank - why are you interested in him - tells her bad things about policemen - she "thanks" him for the "advice" 

Now Marc is emotional and crying, holding her hand - Dawn is furious - "he is not remotely genuine" - she seems to like Irina ...

End of part 3

The Morning after - the man are off to another city, today ( they don't say where)

Dawn talks to Irina - she tells her straight - she doesn't like the way Marc treated her.

Kevin thinks the women came for the food and drink "its all abouts numbers - got to keep trying " - he is the slimiest of the slimy...and laughs like a cross betwen a Hyena and a young girl.

Dawn mets "Russell" an Antipodean who has worked for several companies specializing in arranging romance tours - "one or two of them not honest"...Tells Dawn that many women are paid to meet the men. To lead them on to spend money..

Jean, the truck driver and his lady seem to be confounding Dawn - "unlikey couple" - but seemed to be gelling - holding hands as they walk along the beach.

The END.. but this is an update..

Frank - the Policeman handing out jelly-babies,  lucked out on the trip and has apparently found "the one" on-line


Marc "the biz" didn't do the "biz" with Irene who is STILL single and attending functions

..and Jean, never met Oxana again ( they seemed to be hitting it off on the beach)  met another lady in the next city he met, and gelled with HER, and has met ANOTHER lady on-line, who will visit him in the US...

Kevin - Mr heavy on Axe and Cologne - well his numbers didn't come up ...and his phone number rang unobtainable.

In short - not a good advert for agencies running such tours IMHO

Caveats- this was for tv so I guess they picked on the most "interesting characters"

            - this was  BRITISH journo, but the film crew were US based

[William3rd]

Elena would be Elena Redburn. She was the office manager of the St. Petersburg office when they worked together. I guess you could sorta say they met via internet. Did they talka bout the pornaograghy links to AFA at all?

[msmoby_ru]

Elena would be Elena Redburn. She was the office manager of the St. Petersburg office when they worked together. I guess you could sorta say they met via internet. Did they talka bout the pornaograghy links to AFA at all?

No, but I'd LOVE to know who the Antipodian character "Russell" was, too

[Ade]

I've seen similar docs on Norwegian TV except they tend to focus on Filipino dating - the guys are almost always very weird.

But, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are a disproportionate number of weirdos who are attracted to the FSU dating propaganda - beautiful, desperate young babes willing to do anything with anyone no matter how fat and ugly for a better life. It's not generally true I know, but there are many out there that think this, and the fat and/or ugly and/or weird dudes have more reasons to want to believe it.

Oh yeah, and no offence intended to those fat and/or ugly and/or weird dudes reading this.

 

[Admin]

Here is a link to the program - for those interested -- http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/D/dawn-porter/mail-order-bride.html

- Dan

[Frogman]

A bit new to this RW thing, will post introduction soon, but who thought Irina (the fairly glamourous one 'Biz' & 'Police' guy were interested in) came across as a bit of a pro-dater?

Seems the more agancies stand to make the more dishonest they become. I would'nt bother with these tours as the likeyhood that there are pro's, escorts, pro-dater's, scammer's and other time wasters appears quite high. How would you know until too late? Seems a waste of time & money. Might as well just go there for a holiday, perhaps find a more relaxed venue to pick up girls, the AFA one last night looked a little cold & unappealing, a bit like a trade exhibition.

However, thought Dawn Porter was rather two-faced and shallow, as foxy as she was. O.K some of the guy's were a bit wierd, maybe partly to being on camera, but she had a tendancy to be overly nice towards them only to really slag them off every time their back was turned. Does she really need to over-hype this much for TV to launch her career? guess so and I suppose for entertainment value it was somewhat amusing.

Still, Dawn I feel came across as typical of the problem with western women these days and the reason men look to the FSU. Walk into any UK or US nightclub (or perhaps anywhere in the west) and chances are you will find many women like Dawn who are in love with themselves, think their 'it' and will be two-faced and superficial. Reasons? Materialism, greater ratio of men to women, upbringing? Just my thoughts, would be interested to see what others on here made of it?

[Vinnvinny]

As someone who was part of that tour here’s my 2 pence (or cents) worth:

The Good:
Despite Dawn stating on several occasions that the guys paid $5,000 each, the actual amount was around $4,200. This included 2 further socials (Nikolaev & Kherson) which wasn’t made clear in the film. A few non Americans like me paid $900 less due to us making our own travel arrangements.

Although I have travelled extensively in the past this was my first trip to Ukraine (and FSU) and on balance it was worth it as it provided a good induction to the dating scene there. If you have your head screwed on then it’s fairly easy to pick up what’s happening although sadly I got the impression that the majority of the other participants needed some screwdrivers in the neck department .. more of that later. 

The Bad:
I signed up for this tour on the 4th March 2008 with the tour taking place between the 14th and 25th May. I was advised about the presence of the TV crew on the 24th April 2008 2 weeks after I had paid the full amount. As it would be shown in my home Country then I declared that I definitely did not want to be filmed. I was tempted to cancel and ask for my money back but was comforted by the quote from Ron Redfern at AFA who wrote “Please be assured that this should not interfere with your tour in any manner … “ How wrong I was!

My gripe here is that I am sure that the presence of a film crew must have been planned many months in advance. My view was that it was deceitful of AFA not to advise prospective clients of the filming, particularly British clients as the Crew was from British TV. We should have had an ‘opt in’ or ‘opt out’ option with those opting out being able to receive a full refund or book an alternative tour.

There were 40 men on that trip, way too many IMHO of which around 15 of us refused to take part in any filming etc. What in effect happened was that guys regularly had to be split in two and by default those of us not wishing to be filmed were left to our own devices whilst the main group and TV crew proceeded with a different agenda. Some of the claims made by Dawn such as “none of the guys met anyone ‘worthwhile’ at the Odessa social” etc etc were pure BS. How would she know as nearly 40% of the guys opted out and never had anything to do with her or the programme? In my example I must have spoken to her twice in the 4 days she was there. For all she knew I could have met someone at the social and ….. whatever. She never asked and I never told.

The Ugly:
SeriouslyJaded has called it about right when he refers to ‘weirdo’s’. IMHO the majority of men on that tour were just that. It struck me that as they were probably also considered weirdo’s by ladies back home, then it would be highly likely that Ukrainian ladies would think likewise. If that party of men were typical of the guys that go to the FSU then you can hardly blame the ladies for not appearing too serious about finding a WM at these events. In my experience MANY of the ladies WERE looking for a good husband but looked on these socials as merely a night out with their friends and, as evidenced by a few of the leading characters in the film, who can blame them?

After the Nikolaev social I bailed out along with a few other guys on the basis of ‘trial by association’ and we went our own way. Don’t get me wrong, not all the guys were losers … just 90% were. 

[Faux Pas]

Here is a link to the program - for those interested -- http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/D/dawn-porter/mail-order-bride.html

- Dan

I couldn't find anywhere to see it. Is watching it possible from the US?

[msmoby_ru]

I couldn't find anywhere to see it. Is watching it possible from the US?

It's a UK prog, with UK TV rights - the website for C4 will allow folk in the UK to download it, but you'd need a UK IP address. The file can't be sent on as it's encoded (DRM - digital rights management)

May be someone will have managed to record it and encode it and put it somewhere on the Net...

Either that or hire a UK VPN ( virtual private network)  from me for a month

[Sculpto]

I would really like to know more about how they pitch these tours to the so called "wierdos".

BTW.. I do not think it is fair to judge anyone who makes the effort.  Even if someone is different than you, or has highly misogynist tendencies, or can't attract a woman in their own realm, what gives ANYONE the right to pass judgement on such people?  What is this, third grade?  "Oh he is a weirdo so he doesn't deserve to find a woman"  Come on people..

But, I can see the sales people at AFA when they do an open house just droolling over the so called weirdos knowing they can prey on their desperation or perversion or unrealized fantasies.

[Jack]

Did they talka bout the pornaograghy links to AFA at all? 

I have several of these links.  This has always bothered me about AFA.

I think I would not be allowed to post such links here but if anyone wants to PM or e-mail me I can send to you.

[Sculpto]

Are you saying there are links FROM porno sites to AFA?

[msmoby_ru]

I would really like to know more about how they pitch these tours to the so called "wierdos".

Check out their website ! .. and their links to youtube, etc . A guy, new to this scene, would be impressed by the chance to met some of the ladies from the site - but as Frank- the policeman found out - the ladies on the site often don't show

BTW.. I do not think it is fair to judge anyone who makes the effort. 

May be so, but did you SEE the show - or read the report of someone who WAS !?

Even if someone is different than you, or has highly misogynist tendencies, or can't attract a woman in their own realm, what gives ANYONE the right to pass judgement on such people?  What is this, third grade?  "Oh he is a weirdo so he doesn't deserve to find a woman"  Come on people..

REALLY, unless you saw the programme - I don't think you are in a position to debate ! Some of those guys were SCARY... I'd be seriously worried for the ladies..

But, I can see the sales people at AFA when they do an open house just droolling over the so called weirdos knowing they can prey on their desperation or perversion or unrealized fantasies.

Now I know you didn't see the programme - the AFA reps were clearly regretting inviting a TV crew and were asking the crew not to concentrate on certain members of the trip !

*I* stand by my opinion - if you had daughters you would NOT want them to meet some of those guys..  They were WEIRD...

[Misha]

For those of you who know how to download bittorrents, it is available on http://thepiratebay.org/. Just do a search in the video section for "mail order bride" and it will be one of the first files in the list.

[msmoby_ru]

As someone who was part of that tour here’s my 2 pence (or cents) worth:

Hi Vinny, thanks for putting your side of things..

Can I ask how you think going on this trip taught you anything positive about the dating scene in Ukraine or even Russia -as AFA go there, too.

I ask, because all the FSU women *I* met wouldn't be seen DEAD in such a place as an AFA social evening.  Now you might say that doesn't make them representitive, ( and you might be right !) but judging by the reaction of FSU ladies living in the UK who saw this TV prog...

[Jack]

Sculpto check your PM.

[Ade]

I would really like to know more about how they pitch these tours to the so called "wierdos".

BTW.. I do not think it is fair to judge anyone who makes the effort.  Even if someone is different than you, or has highly misogynist tendencies, or can't attract a woman in their own realm, what gives ANYONE the right to pass judgement on such people?  What is this, third grade?  "Oh he is a weirdo so he doesn't deserve to find a woman"  Come on people..

But, I can see the sales people at AFA when they do an open house just droolling over the so called weirdos knowing they can prey on their desperation or perversion or unrealized fantasies.

Yes, I'd generally agree with you that everyone is entitled to find a partner but let's call a kettle black when that's what it is; a lot of these guys are searching in the FSU and the Philippines because they know they stand very little chance of finding what they are looking for at home, that is, very beautiful and usually very young (relative to themselves) women. They've been led to believe that women in the FSU are "easy", and maybe there are still areas in the FSU where this is the case; desperate women looking for a way out.

I've heard stories in Norway of guys "importing" wives from impoverished situations, taking their passports from them and treating them as sex slaves and cleaners. Some of these women come from such awful backgrounds that even though they have the possibility to leave these guys they have little in the way of an alternative except to go back. Some leave when they get their citizenship; I heard of some guys that expect this and they just import another when their current slave ups and leaves. It's pretty disgusting.

Of course, there are the innocent weirdos too, those that are socially inept and maybe a little strange looking that have problems getting dates in their own country. Usually, there are good reasons for that and those reasons will be equally as valid in the FSU; if that guy finds someone who is willing to marry him then I'd say there are bloody good odds that she has ulterior motives which have little to do with happy families. And of course there will be exceptions, but not many I think.

And FWIW, it's not about judging it's about calling it as it is and I'm damn sure that Vinny there (thanks for your comments dude) had very good reasons to drop the rest of those "socials".

BTW, I don't think "weirdo" has the same negative connotations to me as it does to you; think of it as a general term I use for misfits and those that aren't considered "normal" in the mainstream sense. I'd even guess that both you and I would fit that term quite nicely.

[kievstar]

One thing that should be mentioned tours and agency visits attract many strange men who want to date women out of there league. There is a reason there are women who get labeled unfairly as professional daters.  They just have not seen what they want.  What I have seen from foreign men in Kiev I do not blame them. 

One example.  I went to agency in Kharkov in early September where I met my current girlfriend.  Anyways, while in the agency there was a very old guy who kept saying how does this work what do I do with the agency girl.    What do I talk about with this girl?  This guy was waiting for his date to show up.  He was old as dirt.  She did show up and had a look of terror on his face.  For him to waste her time coming to the agency I would take him on a shopping trip too.  I have spent about 5 days in past 3 years using agencies.  I have met a couple of normal guys but majority should not be dating at all.  I have spent over a year in Kiev and you can count on one hand the number of guys men on this board would let there daughters date. 

Finding a girlfriend or wife (depending on what you want) is very easy in Ukraine.  There is no competition from good men.  Very easy process.

[William3rd]

Are you saying there are links FROM porno sites to AFA?

No- I am saying that their wholly owned subsidiary K4I (Kiss 4 Impact) with "studios" in St petersburg Russia and Costa Rica have been in the film business for years.

Bruno mapped the whole thing about 2 years ago and we copied all the links. They even used the same 800 # for a while.

[William3rd]

I have several of these links.  This has always bothered me about AFA.

I think I would not be allowed to post such links here but if anyone wants to PM or e-mail me I can send to you.

Please do. I have someone who is highly interested in their links.

They also run tours to the Philippines. Read the applicable Philippine law concerning their activities. . . . not that these guys have ever let a little thing like that stop them from operating.

[Faux Pas]

It's a UK prog, with UK TV rights - the website for C4 will allow folk in the UK to download it, but you'd need a UK IP address. The file can't be sent on as it's encoded (DRM - digital rights management)

May be someone will have managed to record it and encode it and put it somewhere on the Net...

Either that or hire a UK VPN ( virtual private network)  from me for a month

So in layman's terms, your telling me I have to pay you or somebody to see this film?

[Sculpto]

Jaded,

I understand the examples you have given.  I have often told the story about the guy I met in the Kiev airport at the end of my first trip.  He was very drunk and bragging about the great agency he found in some small town in western Ukraine and how he would bring a very young and innocent girl over for a 90 day free pass and if she didn't like his sex, cooking and cleaning to his satisfaction he would just send her back.  It turned out he was a politician from northern Wisconsin who was busted later the same year for drunk driving and some ethical violations.

However, is it fair to blame the man?  The agency sites prey on such men.  The "loser" is bread and butter for the agency.  The man who has no chance to find a good woman at home, who is fed up with the behavior of American women, the divorced guy who thinks a foreign girl will be different... these are exactly the guys that the agencies design their marketing to attract.  When agencies advertise that the girls in a certain country or another don't care about the age or appearance of the man and are submissive, sexual and pliable wives.. well.. what do you expect?  "Losers" are going to flock to such hopes regardless of reality.

So, I still maintain it is wrong to pass judgement on such men.  Give them credit for at least making an effort instead of sitting at home watching porn and paying for hookers.  They are, no matter how misguided, trying to improve their lives, and people who have a better clue would be generous to try and help such men instead of cutting them down. Consider that many of them may have had to deal with insult and degredation all their lives for being "different" or a "loser" or "ugly" which might be why their self esteem is low in the first place.

[Sculpto]

William,

I have been trying to make the connection between marriage agencies and the sex industry for a while.  The information Jack sent to me confirms what i was looking for.  Now the fun begins.  My first stop will be the district attorney of my fair city who happens to be very interested in the topic of trafficing. 

I know many of the affiliate agencies of AFA in Ukraine are also with HRB/RLM and AnastasiaWeb and many other sites.  This is the part where it is going to get really fun. 

What I have just seen is not only shocking but also disgusting. 

[Ade]

Jaded,

I understand the examples you have given.  I have often told the story about the guy I met in the Kiev airport at the end of my first trip.  He was very drunk and bragging about the great agency he found in some small town in western Ukraine and how he would bring a very young and innocent girl over for a 90 day free pass and if she didn't like his sex, cooking and cleaning to his satisfaction he would just send her back.  It turned out he was a politician from northern Wisconsin who was busted later the same year for drunk driving and some ethical violations.

However, is it fair to blame the man?  The agency sites prey on such men.  The "loser" is bread and butter for the agency.  The man who has no chance to find a good woman at home, who is fed up with the behavior of American women, the divorced guy who thinks a foreign girl will be different... these are exactly the guys that the agencies design their marketing to attract.  When agencies advertise that the girls in a certain country or another don't care about the age or appearance of the man and are submissive, sexual and pliable wives.. well.. what do you expect?  "Losers" are going to flock to such hopes regardless of reality.

So, I still maintain it is wrong to pass judgement on such men.  Give them credit for at least making an effort instead of sitting at home watching porn and paying for hookers.  They are, no matter how misguided, trying to improve their lives, and people who have a better clue would be generous to try and help such men instead of cutting them down. Consider that many of them may have had to deal with insult and degredation all their lives for being "different" or a "loser" or "ugly" which might be why their self esteem is low in the first place.

I must admit to thinking you have a bizarre take on this, assuming I understand your position correctly.

My position is that everyone is ultimately responsible for the choices they make; yes, I can sympathise with some people and their luck for being born looking like the back end of a bus or whatever but that does not in any way excuse abusive behaviour towards others.

Yes, these agencies prey on those types of men and in the women brought in to satisfy them too and that is distasteful, but that does not excuse those guys bad choices.

And yes, I also feel some sympathy to the ugly/fat/weird but harmless "losers" that attract the young gorgeous green card girls and gold diggers but again, they are ultimately responsible for the choices they make.

[Bruce]

I can not believe there are still guys going on AFA socials with all the news over the past few years