Humans as a commodity

[Sculpto]

First of all if this is not the right area of the site please move the thread to the appropriate area.

Ok, so I have just seen some information that removed any doubt from my mind that the giant Agency sites are not only a scam but are engaged in the worst form of behavior.

I have suspected for a long time there might be a connection between some agencies and the porn and escort industries.  Any doubts I had have now been removed and I have seen the proof I was looking for.

I am outraged, disgusted, pissed off, enraged, and I am going to become obsessed with not only exposing this fraud but doing as much damage to the pimps who are doing this.

Please don't misunderstand me.  I do not hate the porno industry, or the escort industry for that matter.  But, what I do hate is institionalized lies and violations of human rights.  How convenient it is for agencies who have contact with so many girls to also "nudge" or a lot worse girls into porn or escorting.  There should be no connection between marriage agencies and anything to do with the adult sex industry.  The temptation for unscrupulous operators to take innocent girls and pimp them to porn producers or sex resorts in the Dominican Republic for example is too great. 

It has been said that the only thing Ukraine produces for export is girls.  I have always been offended and disgusted by this comment, but, what I saw today does nothing to diminish the reality, hard and cruel, of that comment.

I would like to see a discussion of what we think can be done about it.  We are not a small number of people here.  We have reach, we have resources.  Is there a will to stop the sexual exploitation that is just below the surface? 

[groovlstk]

First of all if this is not the right area of the site please move the thread to the appropriate area.

Ok, so I have just seen some information that removed any doubt from my mind that the giant Agency sites are not only a scam but are engaged in the worst form of behavior.

I have suspected for a long time there might be a connection between some agencies and the porn and escort industries.  Any doubts I had have now been removed and I have seen the proof I was looking for.

I am outraged, disgusted, pissed off, enraged, and I am going to become obsessed with not only exposing this fraud but doing as much damage to the pimps who are doing this.

Please don't misunderstand me.  I do not hate the porno industry, or the escort industry for that matter.  But, what I do hate is institionalized lies and violations of human rights.  How convenient it is for agencies who have contact with so many girls to also "nudge" or a lot worse girls into porn or escorting.  There should be no connection between marriage agencies and anything to do with the adult sex industry.  The temptation for unscrupulous operators to take innocent girls and pimp them to porn producers or sex resorts in the Dominican Republic for example is too great. 

It has been said that the only thing Ukraine produces for export is girls.  I have always been offended and disgusted by this comment, but, what I saw today does nothing to diminish the reality, hard and cruel, of that comment.

I would like to see a discussion of what we think can be done about it.  We are not a small number of people here.  We have reach, we have resources.  Is there a will to stop the sexual exploitation that is just below the surface? 

IMHO you'd be fighting a battle that can't be won - at best there might be Phyrric victories in which Western men get screwed (think IMBRA) with little or no benefit to the women involved.

I also think you should spend time in the FSU before you decide to crusade against the adult sex industry. I'm sure I'll get flack for this but in my experience attitudes towards porn and prostitution are much different there than in the US. I'm not saying it's embraced but most Russian people I know are not in the least righteous or indignant about young women who choose this path in life, nor do they vilify companies or individuals who are in the business. Basically, the attitude I've seen seems to be "they chose this course in life and it's their business."

[OlgaH]

There should be no connection between marriage agencies and anything to do with the adult sex industry. 

I agree.

Please can you give some links to the websites of marriage agencies that are also engaged  in the adult sex industry.

[Faux Pas]

Sculpto,

What is it exactly in proof or information that you have seen? Not that I don't doubt there is ample proof but I second to what groovistk stated. I also wouldn't doubt both giant and small agencies alike indulge in this practice. Most agencies I have seen are a "for profit" organization. If a woman chooses this particular lifestyle of freewill and mind, what is your dog in that hunt? I can't see these practices changing because of your personal moral compass. The sex industry overall is a meat grinder for most involved. Many of the victims choose it over conditions or a lifestyle they feel was much worse.

If you are hellbent on being crusader look into the slave trade, kidnapped and held hostages for prostitution. There is a very big problem here that affects almost every corner of the world, especially FSU countries. Do some google searches on it, you might be surprised.

[Sculpto]

First of all I want to make it clear that I have no problem with women who CHOOSE to go into porn or prostitution.  Being an artist in San Francisco you would be shocked by how many women I know who support their artistic work by this means.  However, they made the decision on their own and acted in a way they believed was their own best interrest.

However, if there is a connection between the marriage business and porn or prostitution that represents a potentially massive problem in a variety of ways.

First of all.. how would you feel if your hypothetical new wife, after marriage, confessed she worked as a prosititute or a porn actress?  Would you throw her out?  Would you try to understand the circumstances in which she entered into something sordid?  Would you want the future mother of your unborn children to have such a history? 

Second, because of the access to so many young women, many of whom have money problems, doesn't it seem corrupt at the minimum that agencies that are supposed to be helping women and men get married would also be in the business of pimping?  Profit is a whole seperate issue from providing a safe and ethical way for people to meet.  All of us complain about the scams of agencies, pro-daters and so on.  So, it stands to logical reason that the money motive for people dabbling or fully participating in porn and prostitution can destroy the validity of recomendations and services from any particular agency or site.

I will be happy to provide the documentation I have recieved on this topic in private. 

So, Groov and Faux.. as I said in the beginning of the post I am not against women who make their own choices and decide to do sex work.  Who cares.. but, what i am against is agencies that portray themselves as providing contact between western men and wholesome old fashioned family oriented honest ladies from the FSU but are in actuality functioning as pimps and using thier agencies as recruiting grounds.  No human being should be commodified ever in any way.  It is a violation of the most basic human rights and those who pimp and recruit should not be the same people as who are giving us advice on who to get married to.

[groovlstk]

First of all.. how would you feel if your hypothetical new wife, after marriage, confessed she worked as a prosititute or a porn actress?  Would you throw her out?  Would you try to understand the circumstances in which she entered into something sordid?  Would you want the future mother of your unborn children to have such a history? 

Sculpto, quite honestly I'm sure there are more than a few western guys in this situation. A lot more than most here would feel comfortable admitting. I know of at least one personally who was warned that he was marrying a recently retired prostitute and refused to believe it. What better way to escape a sordid life and reputation than in the arms of a gullible westerner? There are good reasons why most Russians think Westerners, especially Americans, are fools.

Second, because of the access to so many young women, many of whom have money problems, doesn't it seem corrupt at the minimum that agencies that are supposed to be helping women and men get married would also be in the business of pimping? 

I've long believed that the majority of agencies are corrupt to the bone, some are nothing more than brothels and the only veneer of respectability is the word "marriage" or "romance" in the agency's name. But you also have to understand that corruption pervades every industry in the FSU to varying degrees. It's part of everyday life. Your girl will tell you more as she reveals the trials and tribulations of her everyday life. When I first started out in all this I used to get angry and righteous about it, but ultimately it's useless and exhausting.

[Sculpto]

Groov..
I understand your reluctance... and I understand very well the nature of corrupt societies.. remember I lived in Mexico for several years under one of the most corrupt systems of the 20th century.

However, given the fact that most of us here are seasoned in the pursuit of happiness with FSUW doesn't it stand to reason that if we have the knowledge about dirty business we should make that knowledge very available and obvious so that people who are just beginning have their risk minimized?

[ScottinCrimea]

Sculpto, I understand your outrage if these agencies are forcing these women into prostitution, but if they are using them as a source to find women and then present them with the opportunity to engage in such action and the women willingly choose to accept the invitation, I don't see a problem with it.  Now if you evidence shows some coercion or forcing them to act against their will, I would be on your side.

As far as whether some WM's fiance or wife used to be a prostitute, whether they meet through an agency or not, it is up to him to do due diligence, just like it should be hers to learn about any shady past he may have before making the decision to marry.

[Sculpto]

Scott,

If you are selling site unseen freshly picked strawberry but deliver spoiled and moldy rotten fruit does the buyer have right to remedy?

If agencies want to engage in the escort business all they have to do is say so.  But they advertise women of traditional values and that is why many men use their services, to try and find a suitable traditional and honest wife.

As far as using coersion or other tactics to get girls to do things they might not otherwise do we really do not have any idea what really goes on behind closed doors at the agencies.  I have one example.

I met a girl in Odessa through HRB who became a real friend, not a love match.  When she finally quit the site and confessed to me that she was being paid to chat and sit on cam she also told me she was so afraid of what could happen to her because she had been threatened to remain silent, not only about the chat/cam scam her agency was doing but the fact that she had been pressured by the manager of her agency and the manager of another agency to go to work ona  web cam site because "she was suited to it and would make  alot more money".  Her fear is so great that she refused to let me use her name in my complaint to HRB and she also has left Odessa for another city where she is not known.

I also know that many girls are so afraid of their agencies they refuse to have off site contact even after IMBRA standards are met and contact info is paid for.  If they are afraid to only have off site contact what else can they be afraid of?  The fact is we have no idea what really goes on behind closed doors at the agencies and each agency and its relationship with each girl are individual cases.

If it walks like a duck....

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott,

If you are selling site unseen freshly picked strawberry but deliver spoiled and moldy rotten fruit does the buyer have right to remedy?

Sculpto, your analogy doesn't fly.  If someone advertises freshly picked strawberries, I go check it out and find moldy rotten fruit, I just won't make the purchase and I won't return to that merchant.  If someone is taking a wife, or anything else for that matter, sight unseen, they deserve to be rewarded for their foolishness.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that you are saying that the agencies are advertising wholesome women and providing prostitutes instead, and if that's the case, of course it's false advertising but any intelligent man will take the time necessary to learn the truth.

I think the other point you are making is that the agencies are luring innocent girls into their marriage agencies with the promise of meeting a foreign husband and then coercing them into prostitution and we haven't seen any evidence that this is occuring.  If it is, give me some specific examples and evidence and I'll join the fight.

[kievstar]

Is there prostitutes in agencies - yes.  Do agencies make girls prostitutes - no.  There are numerous girls who work as hookers and looking for a husband in Kiev.  Not a big deal if they go to a night club and they end up going home with a guy willing to pay $200 plus -  (local or foreign man).  There was a trip report recently with a photo of a girl in Kiev and she is a well known hooker and many of her friends around premiere palace.  They go to the gym there and they know very rich man go there.  That being said two of them tend to be on the front page of elenas most popular girls.  When I lived in Kiev I used to go to gym there and used to laugh on how many workouts they would get.  These girls do want to meet a husband so there serious its just they can make $3,000 plus tax free a week easily on there back. 

If your girl is good in bed or is very bad in bed she probably is well experienced before you.  I mention bad as that is an easy way for a man to never think his girl is well traveled - a nice trick a girl can do.  In college I dated a current famous porn star for 4 years and still stay in touch with her.  She works for Jenna and she loves the business.  She is a good person.  She can make $50,000 working 45 hours a week or over a million selling her body. 

If a girl has two men in a three year period but has sex 500 times or 200 men and sex 1 time each in 3 years.  Who is having more sex?

[IAmZon]

DIDO -

"I also think you should spend time in the FSU before you decide to crusade against the adult sex industry. I'm sure I'll get flack for this but in my experience attitudes towards porn and prostitution are much different there than in the US. I'm not saying it's embraced but most Russian people I know are not in the least righteous or indignant about young women who choose this path in life, nor do they vilify companies or individuals who are in the business. Basically, the attitude I've seen seems to be "they chose this course in life and it's their business."

[Sculpto]

Look you guys are still getting it wrong.. I have no problem with people who choose of their own free will to go into porn or prostitution.

Lots of guys go to Tijuana for example and end up married with the hookers there.  Hookers need love too.

My point is if there is evidence that a site owner is connected to and the owner of porn sites and porn studios and escort sites and services then it represents a conflict of interest in terms of the legitimacy and honesty of the ladies they represent as well as a massive opportunity for abuse.

But if I am the only one who thinks this is a problem, if I am the only one who thinks marrigge agencies are so honest they would never provide porn starlets or escorts to someone who would give them a lot of money for it  .. well then lets just stop this thread.

The evidence does exist and is easily verified and I will share what i have in private with anyone who cares to do due dillegence,

[BC]

The evidence does exist and is easily verified and I will share what i have in private with anyone who cares to do due dillegence,

What's to do?

I remember a while back someone stating that the chances of a women in agencies to meet a WM and marry is well below 1 %..  A greater portion will certainly find other things to do instead of sitting around twiddling thumbs.

[Sculpto]

Well, pretty much all of us who have had some experience at this are fed up with agency stuff.  We are finding new ways to meet ladies and some are having good success in doing so.  However...

If the agencies were actualy doing what they claim, if they actually were honest.. imagine how much easier it would be for everyone.  Imagine that 1% number going up fast. 

Maybe I am too optimist when I am not being paranoid.  LOL.  But, I just feel that there is a chance we can get to more guys sooner and save a lot of guys a lot of heartache and money if we are able to reach them before the agency marketing machines get to them.  If we can stop guys from throwing money in the toilet we can force agencies to be responsible businesses.  Or maybe I am way out of my league in trying to do anything at all.  But, I figure it s worth a shot and honestly getting a little revenge on a parasitical industry feels good. 

[ScottinCrimea]

It's pretty hard to compete with the photos on the agency websites.   
Who would you want to believe?

[Sculpto]

That is a very good point Scott and I was guilty of falling for it also.. but, that is exactly why I am so motivated to try and do something about it.

[groovlstk]

If the agencies were actualy doing what they claim, if they actually were honest.. imagine how much easier it would be for everyone.  Imagine that 1% number going up fast. 

I don't think that low figure is due to the rampant dishonesty on the part of agencies. I believe agency owners who posted here have stated that less than 3% of men who write to women actually visit. And of that 3% how many men actually get engaged? I'd guess somewhere in the single digits. And of the men in that single digit category, how many file K1s and ultimately marry?

The economics of the business would have long ago shaken out dishonest and seedy agencies if the ultimate goal was to bring couples together for marriage. However, it seems to me the only viable business models are letter factories or romance tours. Apartment rentals, interpreter services, airport pickups, etc. are pocket change when only a tiny % of your client base is actually going to visit, so where is the income coming from?

I also don't believe that the % of men who make visits is low because many are spooked by scammers or dishonest agency tactics. I think most guys are not really serious but pleased as punch to have a gorgeous online girlfriend, others have told so many lies that they dare not show up for an actual meeting, and others just don't want the hassle of traveling to a strange and distant land.
 

[ScottinCrimea]

So you are saying that the agencies are really just selling fantasies and there are plenty of men who are happy to pay for it.  You can't sell your product if there isn't a need for it.  I guess the question would be why so many men need this fantasy, many times knowing that it can never translate to reality?

[Sculpto]

I happened to be cruising around on one of the anti scam forums last night and came across a very long thread about our old friends at ualadys who are up to their old tricks again.  Apparently some men are getting spammed very heavily by them so there are a lot of complaints.  So, I did a little research to see what I could find out.

Last month they got over 17,000 unique views.  Think about it.  That is one of the WORST sites in the industry and well documented on just about every anti-scam site on the web.  Their advertising is no where near as pervasive as Anastasiaweb and they still manage 17,000 unique views in one months.. about 23% from the US.  If only 10% are members and each member is spending a mere $100 a month.. its $170,000 in revenue.  Now throw in the also well documented fact that the ownership of said site is also involved with the main strip club in Kharkov and its related escort businesses how much more revenue are they bringing in?

I don't see why there are people doubting the validity of the claim that some agencies are involved in pimping.  When you open your eyes it is in fact all over the place.  Maybe we as men just don't care.. maybe we expect it... maybe some of us even want it..

I just wish they would call things what they really are instead of using deception as a means for profit.

[Sculpto]

I don't think that low figure is due to the rampant dishonesty on the part of agencies. I believe agency owners who posted here have stated that less than 3% of men who write to women actually visit. And of that 3% how many men actually get engaged? I'd guess somewhere in the single digits. And of the men in that single digit category, how many file K1s and ultimately marry?

The economics of the business would have long ago shaken out dishonest and seedy agencies if the ultimate goal was to bring couples together for marriage. However, it seems to me the only viable business models are letter factories or romance tours. Apartment rentals, interpreter services, airport pickups, etc. are pocket change when only a tiny % of your client base is actually going to visit, so where is the income coming from?

I also don't believe that the % of men who make visits is low because many are spooked by scammers or dishonest agency tactics. I think most guys are not really serious but pleased as punch to have a gorgeous online girlfriend, others have told so many lies that they dare not show up for an actual meeting, and others just don't want the hassle of traveling to a strange and distant land.
 

Groov, All are valid observations and you raise a very important question. 

Why do guys write but never go? 

[Sculpto]

So you are saying that the agencies are really just selling fantasies and there are plenty of men who are happy to pay for it.  You can't sell your product if there isn't a need for it.  I guess the question would be why so many men need this fantasy, many times knowing that it can never translate to reality?

I don't know if this story will answer your question but it might give some insight into the mind of the internet dater.

Several years ago I was doing a lot of chatting on a certain huge site that is now greatly depleted.  However at that time it was widely popular and very easy to "hook up" for a savvy chatter.  In the particular room I hung out there was a woman that had elevated to becoming the sort of "matron" of the room.  She was considered mature and trustworthy by almost everyone and no one hated her.  She sent out her photos that had the appearance of an above average latina with a very nice body.  For two years this went on.  Then, people started organzing get togethers and they grew in popularity.  So, instead of sitting in a chat room all weekend people were actually getting together to have parties.  For a while it was alot of fun.  And then, finally, the Latina that went by the name of Melly finally agreed to come to a get together.  A lot of the guys were really psyched about it and there was fierce competition for who would be the one who would "get" her.  Well, imagine our surprise when Melly arrived at the party.  No, Melly was not named Melly, her name was Crystal.. and no Melly was not single but she was married.. and no Melly was not a hot Latina but she was a 350 pound white trash girl that did not live in the rich part of town but actually lived in a trailer in some small town in the central valley.  Melly got herself very drunk and had a nervous breakdown.  We had to call an ambulance and her husband and we never heard from her again.

There are a lot of lonely people out there and the internet gives them the chance to be someone they are not.  And unfortunately there appears to be an entire industry perfectly designed to take advantage of these poor lost souls and make a lot of money while they are at it.

I am going to my studio now.. gonna go watch the Blue Angels and Fat Albert from the roof...

[SANDRO43]

I guess the question would be why so many men need this fantasy, many times knowing that it can never translate to reality?

You should ask people from longer-established industries, such as movie-making, advertising agencies, investment banks, etc.

Selling dreams is a VERY old and profitable occupation .

[Diplomacy]

Sculpto:

Ok, the issue is the only thing we can do in the USA is stop actual trafficking of women, men, or children into slave or sex industry.  In the scenario you speak of, this can only be enforced by a FSU government. 

The real issue is the law enforcement, government, and mafia are all intertwined like the Italian American Mafia was last century for us.  The 3 main differences are that the Clans or Russia mafia is more into white collar crime and also it has it's reach throughout the nation as opposed to industry and city specific influence.  The third is the Italian American protected other Italian American's and only took a small portion of money versus the much larger percentage to almost all profits in FSU.  Hence mob tribute to Italian mobs being "protection money"

In the business scenario you stated you left out the biggest operating expense, it is not advertising but paying a clan to operate or be killed.  This is in every kiosk and business throughout the country. Let me use a little humor, that you will think is out of bad taste.  The reality is this is a common area of humor in their culture, you can tell a lot about a country by humor.

A man finds a magic lamp

Rubs it 3 times

Genie pops out

Genie says you get 3 wishes

First $10,000,000 UAH

Granted

Second

All the Vodka he could ever drink

Granted

Third

A business that the Mafia will not take profits

Genie States

That is impossible, I even have to pay the Mafia!

Fair warning, complaining to local law enforcement about the agency and practices you state.  Is a good way to not be seen again or some accident happening if you do it in person.

I love your heart, just trying to put the disgusting situation in proper light.  They have no value of human life, they have killed in the USA and are best dealt with by our officials and agencies.  If you wish to discuss the matter with one, I will point you in the right direction in PM.  I will tell you, they will say there is nothing they can do here, unless they know a sympathetic enforcement group in that city.  To not be to Debbie Downer, there are in fact several cases now of local enforcement doing the right thing.  Isolated yes, and maybe fear the influence of the men that are making complaints.  I just look at the results and there is a faint glimmer of hope arising over there.

 

[groovlstk]

Given Russia's persecution complex against the West, the authorities would probably react with a vengeance if there was a way they could strike a propaganda blow by blaming the exploitation of these women on Western men.