Humans as a commodity

[kievstar]

Sandro, I thought I might.  I  even asked some girls who work for me and they all knew someone who made money on the side and married but their husbands do not know or do not remember.   This is a good topic for the Jerry Springer or Oprah show. I am working in Chicago today maybe will have to stop over to Oprah's apartment to propose the idea.  

[Sculpto]

Kiev.. there are actually forums where marriage with prostitutes is discussed.  The overwhelming opinion is that former prostitutes do not make good wives.  These kinds of women become masters in the art of deception and manipulation.  There are exceptions but so extremely rare they are statistically insignificant.

The question is not about how much sex a girl has, or even who she has it with.  The difference between a civilian and a professional is all about intent.  If someone has sex for love, pleasure, comfort it is entirely different than someone who uses sex to get stuff, money, power.  The emotional consequences of one or the other are also entirely different.  


And holy cow Olga.. how did you find that so fast?  

[OlgaH]

And holy cow Olga.. how did you find that so fast? 

do you remember PIS 

[BillyB]

You wrote: "Although prostitutes will be good in bed or fake it as if they're inexperienced, they will most likely be domestically clumsy when it come to doing such things as cooking." Yes, you did not say that all prostitutes would be bad cooks, but you did say that they would most likely be domestically clumsy. I just find very odd you ability to speak with such certainly on matters.

It's good to know that you realize "most likely' doesn't mean "all" and "clumsy" doesn't mean "bad". If people didn't put words into my mouth, this thread would've been a page shorter.

I can't remember Billy. Have you ever been married to a RW? You wrote your 1,000 letters, but how many RW have you really known, non-prostitutes or otherwise in real life?  

With over 1500 posts you have, you should pay attention to what other people write. Have I ever been married to a RW? How many times have I been to the FSU? How many RW do I know or have experience with? Let's just say the answers are going to disappoint you.


Kievstar, I have no problem with dating an woman who had more sex with her ex husband but the thought of getting involved a woman(prostitute) who exchanges bodily fluids with strangers on a daily or weekly basis is reason to worry about getting involved with her. Keep in mind, I have no experience with prostitutes so it's just a guess prostitutes are more likely to carry diseases compared to a woman who's been in monogamous relationships all her life.

[kievstar]

scultpo, I found all the discussion boards but that is just BS and hear say.  Found a lot of stuff like Olga found too.  

I was joking on the times having sex - i do not know how to use the smiley faces.

Personally, I prefer porn stars why go with the amateurs "hookers" having sex with non pro men and women.  I am concerned about the cooking and cleaning after reading this thread. May have to get a Swedish nanny like the one Tiger Woods married.  

[Misha]

It's good to know that you realize "most likely' doesn't mean "all" and "clumsy" doesn't mean "bad". If people didn't put words into my mouth, this thread would've been a page shorter.

Well, only you Billy put your own words in your own mouth.

With over 1500 posts you have, you should pay attention to what other people write. Have I ever been married to a RW? How many times have I been to the FSU? How many RW do I know or have experience with? Let's just say the answers are going to disappoint you.

You answer a question with more questions.

Keep in mind, I have no experience with prostitutes so it's just a guess prostitutes are more likely to carry diseases compared to a woman who's been in monogamous relationships all her life.

Well, don't forget that most Russian women fall in a continuum between virgin/strictly monogamous and prostitutes. STD's are pretty rampant in Russia. I would be more worried about the woman who went out to a bar and had a one-night stand with a stranger who did not take the necessary precautions to protect herself.

[Sculpto]

Kiev.. trust me you did not find all the discussion boards and what I said about marriage to professional sex workers is accurate.  

Billy, I would be less worried about viral infections than mental disease.  Most STIs can be treated with anti biotics.. but someone who is mentally imbalanced can be very dangerous.  I mentioned a girl I knew here in Sf who we had to do an intervention and who ended up in the county psychiatric hospital.. before she started whoring she was as sweet and innocent as they come.  She got herself into trouble financially and some girl she knew told her to try stripping.. soon it turned into tricking and then into increasing amounts of Meth and other drugs.  By the time we intervened it was already too late.  She had become violent and extremely volatile.  But, the thing was.. and this is what made her so dangerous.. is most people had no idea there was even a problem.  I didn't know until I got a phone call from her Mom asking me to participate in the intervention.  But, afterwards.. oh man.. once the "cat was out of the bag" the girl had gone completely nuts.. in under a year of being a working girl.  She remains to this day, ten years later, under county supervision because of violent tendencies.  Maybe she was nuts before she became a whore.. maybe not.. but whoring certainly did nothing to help.

So, lets bring this back around to how it relates to meeting women from the FSU and especially girls from certain sites where there is well substantiated rumor and proof of "monkey business" going on behind closed doors.

[ScottinCrimea]

I'm not taking sides in this debate, but there are a couple of points that I think are in error.  The first is this by BillyB:

We are usually influence by those around us and prostitutes are usually hanging around men who are below the norm in society, helping many men commit adultery and some knowingly passing around diseases all for money. They are not spending their time talking with other family oriented moms on how best to raise and feed their children or improving their lives through self education on various topics. Most likely they are spending their time with sleazy men, shooting drugs, and talking with other prostitutes on how to catch a man and how much to charge. I'm mainly referring to prostitutes who have a choice in life. I will not judge those will little or no choice starving in 3rd world countries or forced/sold into sex slavery against their will.

If a woman who's 30 years old and doesn't have basic domestic skills and a guy who's 30 years old doesn't know basic maintenance for a car and home and has a difficult time holding a job for whatever reason, don't you wonder where their head was at for all those years growing up? Were they learning something valuable at this time or spending most of their time high on drugs or hanging with wrong crowd? I'd like to feel I've done good in my life growing up and have a lot skills to contribute to a woman and my family and I want a woman who has a lot to contribute towards me and her family. If someone can give me reasons why prostitutes make good family oriented wives and mothers, known for being sincere and honest, and have great domestic skills, please educate me but I doubt I'd change my mind.

I know a lot of career women who have zero domestic skills because they are spending their time with other career minded women or men and certainly don't discuss domestic issues in the workplace or focusing their attention on the best ways to be a good wife and mother. I suppose we could say that they are prostituting themselves to their career rather than to men, but the result as far as domestic skills are the same.

The other point I have an issue with is Sculpto's description of the psychological trauma of the typical (in his experience) prostitute in San Francisco.  As he has never been to the FSU, his assumption that the reasons and results of women engaging in prostitution there versus the US are similar has no foundation.  I have treated many women engaged in this profession in the US and there are a broad range of reasons and results.  I do agree with him that few that go down this road have a positive outcome, though there are exceptions.  On the other hand, there are cultural differences in the FSU that have an impact on the end result and there are also a broad range of results.  I know personally of a single mom in Ukraine who agreed to "entertain" a wealthy man from Turkey for a weekend who saw it as an opportunity to provide some additional income to care for her son.  She is an excellent mother and quite competent domestically but in her mind it was something she could do to give her son a better life.  In all aspects, she would be an excellent wife for someone.

Whether they know it or not, many men have married a woman from the FSU who had at least one "lover" who provided her with financial amenities in exchange for her attention.  This is more commmon there than many here want to believe.  Did they marry a prostitute?  I guess it all depends on how we define the word.

[Diplomacy]

I agree fully that there are women that get involved in the practice of their own accord.  Yes, Moscow has a it's own base of the practice now.  The girls that are taken against their will or told under false pretenses and shipped to another country is what I consider slaves.

The FSU is a staging area for the world.  It is not just FSU women taken from FSU countries.  It is women from around the world brought there and sold to the highest bidder.  They are then shipped to places like Dominican republic, Japan, and Israel.

There is no defense when children are involved.  Which they are also trafficked.  Are they making a cognitive decision to enter into that world? 

http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2007/

As for culture differences.  A few of the women take a chance, a chance at a better life is better than no chance.  It is the reality the percentage is greater of having a worse life that should be a call to arms.

As for discussing the reality of marrying a prostitute, I have no idea what litmus test you could use.  Anyone can pretend to be something they are not, or not something they are.  Ask better questions, and you get better answers.  I understand the premise of cooking and cleaning.  What if they were taught that as a child and young women?  Their mother and grandmother would be there teaching them all that.

Now being capable and doing is two different things.  You would also have to understand the economics better.  In Ukraine a student is paid $120 a month if my information is good.  If they do not work, then ask what they did that day.  See if they went to the cafe, bought clothes, and general spending.  Now find out how much money parents are giving.

You are looking to marry this girl, there is nothing wrong with asking this type of question and done properly should not even raise flags.  It can be done in random conversation.  If you do not care to ask tough questions, then you roll the dice.  This is a high risk endeavor, I would be taking as much risk out as you can.  If you want to talk only about the weather and other fluff, you probably should not be doing this at all. 

You should be honest with yourself, and paint a proper picture of yourself too.  If you bring up some personal flaws, usually the other person will feel comfortable to respond in kind. 

Most people in cities other then Kiev and Odessa, simply can not to afford to eat out all the time.  Better Economy in the other 2 cities. 

As far as human trafficking goes, one person is too many IMO.  This is why such a strong condition of enforcement of the act is being leveraged as entry into EU.

[ScottinCrimea]

The FSU is a staging area for the world.  It is not just FSU women taken from FSU countries.  It is women from around the world brought there and sold to the highest bidder.  They are then shipped to places like Dominican republic, Japan, and Israel.

I would be interested in yoiur references for this information.


[/quote]Now being capable and doing is two different things.  You would also have to understand the economics better.  In Ukraine a student is paid $120 a month if my information is good.  If they do not work, then ask what they did that day.  See if they went to the cafe, bought clothes, and general spending.  Now find out how much money parents are giving.
[/quote]

I'm confused.  What are students paid $120 a month for?  By whom?  In any regard, if you're dating someone young enough to still be a student, you have more to worry about than how they spent their day.

[Jack]

In any regard, if you're dating someone young enough to still be a student, you have more to worry about than how they spent their day.

uhh-ohhhh.  Guess this rules out Alina.   

[Sculpto]

Understanding the dynamics of human traffic is complex.  The who, how, when and where of it is different in almost every situation.  The spectacular abuses that make it onto television I believe are the anomolies.  A much greater amount of this stuff happens without the physical violence, though coersion and other means of persuasion still run rampant.  Nevertheless, a very very large amount of the traffic does go in, out, or both from the FSU simply because the power and reach of the black marketeers has strong roots from a time when the illicit business was a lot more violent.  I believe today the FSU girls that leave the FSU to work in this business for the most part do so willingly and are well paid for it.  The pimps have figured out happy hookers make more money.

There are other places to look for the ring leader.. places with low levels of extradictions, lax tax laws, low amounts of law enforcment or easily corruptable police.  Cypres, various Carib islands, and places of the sort.

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader2006/reader2467.htm
http://www.globalfantasies.com/dominican_escorts.htm

OK here are two of many examples.. Russian girls in Thailand catering to Russian tourists.. and the much bigger $ business of Russian girls in the Carib.. DR is just one destination and the site I posted is only one of a very large number..

These girls are well paid and go there very willingly.  They get to hang out on a tropical beach, eat and drink all they want, party late into the night and have sex with rich foreign men.  What could be bad?  Until the guilt and shame forms later.. or maybe they are somehow guilt and shame free???

BTW.. domestic skills have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with being able to know if your future wife was at some point in the sex business.  You think hookers didn't have Moms?  You think hookers are not Moms?

The stipend for college in Ukraine is between 80-120 dollars per month paid by the government.  I do not know if the same system exists in Russia.  A college girl could also have any number of legit small side businesses to make extra cash and not interfere with studies. 

Do not generalize ANYTHING guys.  Just politely do due diligence.  If you ask a girl how she gets her money and she is evasive or defensive about it that would be a really big red flag.  If a girl has a legit micro business she will be proud to talk about it and may ask advice about how to grow it if she believes you have a good business sense.  Lots of college age people sell herbalife or cell phone cards or work in a public market or a record store or McDonal.... not that much different than college aged people here... but if she is hanging around all the time, going to the disco, spending summers in Yalta.. and has no obvious means of support and refuses to say how she does it.. there are only two main possibilities..

[Sculpto]

Lets not turn this into an age gap discussion. 

[OlgaH]

In Ukraine a student is paid $120 a month if my information is good.

The "stipendium" (Latin) of students of  Ukranian higher educational institutions  is $70 - 92 (depends on a higher educational institution's accreditation level), but for the students of the primary and secondary educational institutions ( usually technical college style of education) the "stipendium" is $35 per month. (according to information: http://glavred.info/archive/2008/08/29/103445-2.html)

[Sculpto]

Olga, do they have the same thing for the students in Russia?

[OlgaH]

Olga, do they have the same thing for the students in Russia?

Yes ,we also have student "stipendium" system in Russia 

[Sculpto]

It is also my understanding that students have the chance to stay in university dormitories for no cost.. is that correct?

[OlgaH]

It is also my understanding that students have the chance to stay in university dormitories for no cost.. is that correct?

If they have special social benefits for example as orphans or children from  large families and so on. 

[BillyB]

I'm not taking sides in this debate, but there are a couple of points that I think are in error.  The first is this by BillyB:


I know a lot of career women who have zero domestic skills because they are spending their time with other career minded women or men and certainly don't discuss domestic issues in the workplace or focusing their attention on the best ways to be a good wife and mother. I suppose we could say that they are prostituting themselves to their career rather than to men, but the result as far as domestic skills are the same.

Scott. Once again I will repeat I did not say a woman with zero domestic skills equals a prostitute. If a woman has zero domestic skills, you have to wonder where her head was all those previous years. If she's been studying and making a 6-7 figure income as a CEO of a company and has zero domestic skills that's understandable and I agree with you but I'm not talking about those ladies who have high level skills in a different line of work here. Personally I prefer a woman that makes that kind of money with zero domestic skills over a a homemaker making $0 with perfect domestic skills any day. I'd be the homemaker instead and sharpening my domestic skills.

If some of you guys can't figure out the difference between a woman who opens her legs for strangers for a living and a woman who has her act together in life whether she focuses on being a good homemaker or focusing on career, then you're in a World of hurt. Do you think there's little mental and behavioral differences between those type of women? It's hard enough in this endeavor to find a sincere woman based on little face to face time but it can be done as long as a guy has a good understanding of the difference between sincere and insincere and know which ladies are keepers and which ones to throw away. Next time you meet a good/sincere woman, tell her you can't tell the difference between her character and behavioral patterns from a prostitute's and see what she does.

Sculpto, I've read that many young FSU women from small towns are lured by men or women to work in another country with promises of a good job. They go to some country and their passport is taken away and they are beaten into submission and must "work" to get their passport back. Lots of info on this subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_slavery

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/sex_slavery_big_business_in_europe.htm

[Ade]

A little anecdote.

Some years ago, 5 or 6 I think, I was chatting on ICQ to a stunning looking young woman in her early 20's. She was a student in a Norwegian University in Bergen and she seemed very bright. She, along with her two equally beautiful student friends shared a house and subsidized their education by charging men to sleep with them. These were not crack whores; these were very attractive, bright women studying high level science, engineering and business subjects - at least one was on their Masters.

I was curious about their motivations and they were quite open with me; they said that they would probably have slept with a number of guys anyway before they found someone they wanted to settle down with so why not charge men for the privilege and finish their education without the huge debts that most people incur here. Admittedly, they were a little more selectable in their clientèle than your average escort and would only sleep with those guys that may normally have stood a chance of bedding them; and they weren't cheap be any stretch of the imagination. They even had a web page, "Bergen's best escorts" or something.

They made me a good offer; 3 of them for a full weekend, and I came this || close to accepting I can tell you. I guess that if it hadn't required a long train trip or flight to get there I would have accepted too.

I'm sure that all three of them now have successful careers and have no or few psychological scars for their adventures (no more anyway than the usual psychological baggage picked up at that age).

My point with this is that not all escorts or ex-escorts can be so easily identified and characterized. Also, I think that the psychological damaged caused by such activities very much depends on the motivations of those involved and of the local cultural stigma (or not) that's associated and foisted on those activities.

In other words Billy, not all escorts are crack whores.

[Diplomacy]

I would be interested in yoiur references for this information.

My reference should be verified with this report.  I am involved along with several other Masons, Politicians, Religious groups, and a web of people doing something about this.  We are also trying to stop aide from getting stolen and replaced with junk.  The aide is then sold at government staged 2nd hand stores or on the black market.  Educate and try to reverse the exponential growth of Aids cases.  Increase agriculture and mining yields.  This all in Ukraine, I know little about the other FSU countries.

I think it is time to introduce one friend who should be made public.  Yes, he is a minister but I have no affiliation to his church.  I admire the work he has done, and they can use all the support they can muster.

http://ukraine.kachelman.com/

You all must understand, this is not blue collar street crime.  It is white collar mafia activity.  They are some of the best and brightest minds in the FSU.  You see what they want you to see.  Why are we getting all these prosecutions, setting up hot lines, educating the general public?  If the women and children are going on their own free will?

Read this people, and help out all you can.  The fact is there is progress being made from the efforts of our government and civilians.  There is in fact cooperation starting, it is just the foundation now.  I do not expect anyone on the boards to risk their lives like many are right now. 

Please, see the other side of the American foreign policy and work of citizens. They care enough and only gain the satisfaction of making a difference.  There is no politcal favor for the common citizen over there making it happen.

People have been killed, and the reality is more will.  They know the risk when they get involved.  Do not dishonor them by arguing the fact does not exist.

I am not trying to beat my chest and say look at me.  Please realize I did not find this board until a couple of weeks before my trip.  You can say I am a WTO, but I was introduced to my Fiance by friends that had my best interest in mind.  It is different then probably anyone else that is on the boards. 

I was working, learning, and advising for the last 3 years.  My original trip was suppose to be starting the adoption process, so at least one boy would be pulled out of the cellar society views him in their.  I am not rich, powerful, or do I ask for political favor.  I  saved for 3 years to have enough money to adopt and care for the boy.

RUSSIA (Tier 2 Watch List)

Russia is a source, transit, and destination country for men, women, and children trafficked for various purposes. Russia is a source country for men and women trafficked to Germany, Turkey, Portugal, the People's Republic of China, Japan, and South Korea for purposes of sexual exploitation and forced labor, including agricultural and maritime work. Russian women continue to be trafficked to Western Europe, the United States, Canada, Vietnam, Thailand, Australia, New Zealand, and the Middle East for sexual exploitation. Moscow and St. Petersburg are destination centers for children trafficked internally within Russia and from Ukraine and Moldova for purposes of sexual exploitation and forced begging. Child sex tourism in Western Russia remains a problem. Moscow continues to be a significant destination for men and women trafficked within Russia and from Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Ukraine, Moldova, and Belarus for purposes of sexual exploitation and forced labor, including work in the construction industry. Moscow is also a transit point for women trafficked from Uzbekistan and Armenia to the United Arab Emirates for purposes of sexual exploitation.

The Government of Russia does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking; however, it is making significant efforts to do so. Russia is placed on Tier 2 Watch List for a fourth consecutive year for its continued failure to show evidence of increasing its overall efforts to combat trafficking, particularly in providing trafficking victims with protection. Specific trafficking victim assistance legislation, pending before the Duma, was neither passed nor enacted in 2006. Russia continued modest progress in its law enforcement efforts, particularly in its trafficking investigation efforts. In early 2007, the Ministry of Interior created the federal-level Counter Human Trafficking Unit to further strengthen anti-trafficking law enforcement coordination. In July 2006, the Duma passed asset forfeiture legislation that permits prosecutors to seek the forfeiture of the assets of convicted persons, including traffickers. In January, the Public Chamber of the national government provided grants to three anti-trafficking NGOs. Two local governments signed agreements with NGOs that establish a mechanism for victim referral. Although these are positive developments, Russia has yet to provide comprehensive human trafficking victim protections, covering the entire process from victim identification through reintegration and support. Overall, victim protection and assistance remains the weakest component of Russia's anti-trafficking efforts.

The national government should do more to develop a comprehensive national strategy that acknowledges the gravity of the problem and should allocate adequate resources to address remaining deficiencies in victim assistance and protection. The national government should establish a national action plan which designates ministerial responsibilities, designate specific funding from the national budget to carry out designated responsibilities, establish an official coordinating body with the authority to implement a national strategy, and evaluate ministerial efforts to combat trafficking. Special emphasis should be placed on improving national efforts to coordinate and enact victim assistance, protection, and rehabilitation. Russia should create a central repository for conviction and sentencing data for trafficking cases.

Prosecution
The Government of Russia demonstrated mixed progress in its law enforcement efforts over the last year. Article 127 of the criminal code prohibits both trafficking for commercial sexual exploitation and forced labor. Other criminal statutes may be used to prosecute and convict traffickers. Article 127 provides punishments of up to five years' imprisonment for trafficking crimes; aggravating circumstances may extend penalties up to 10 years' imprisonment. These penalties are sufficiently stringent and are commensurate with punishments for other grave crimes, such as rape. In 2006, police conducted 125 trafficking investigations; 106 of these investigations were sexual exploitation cases and 19 were forced labor cases. This total is a significant increase from 80 investigations in 2005. It is difficult to ascertain the exact number of prosecutions and convictions in 2006 because the Government of Russia does not collect and maintain such statistics. Authorities conducted at least 26 prosecutions during the reporting period, compared to 53 prosecutions in 2005. At least 13 traffickers were convicted in 2006, compared to nine in 2005. At least 14 traffickers received prison sentences (some traffickers sentenced in 2006 were convicted during the previous reporting period and are reflected in the conviction statistics reported for 2005). Russia participated with other governments in several international investigations, resulting in the prosecution and conviction of traffickers both in Russia and abroad. Trafficking-related corruption remained a problem; however, Russia demonstrated its growing commitment to address this corruption by investigating and prosecuting a number of government officials involved in trafficking.

The unlawful forced labor of young conscripts within Russia's military remained a serious problem; at least 27 military officials, including army generals, were investigated or prosecuted for unlawful labor exploitation of soldiers under their command. One officer was convicted and sentenced to five years in prison for forcing his soldiers to work for a third-party businessman. The Russian military is reported to be investigating claims that male army conscripts were forced into prostitution in St. Petersburg.

Protection
Russia demonstrated limited progress in its efforts to protect and assist victims. The federal government, through the Public Chamber, provided grants to three anti-trafficking NGOs in early 2007, including a grant of approximately $17,000 to one NGO that provides rehabilitation assistance to victims. Russia's Foreign Ministry reported assisting the return to Russia of some victims of trafficking from other countries. Although some local governments provided in-kind and financial support to some anti-trafficking NGOs, it appears the majority of aid to NGOs providing victim assistance was provided by international donors. Russia relies on regional and municipal-run domestic violence and homeless shelters as well as crisis centers and anti-trafficking NGOs to provide trafficking victims with shelter, and legal, medical, and psychological assistance. In the absence of available shelters some trafficking victims did not receive assistance. The comprehensive anti-trafficking legislation, in development since 2003, would strengthen assistance to trafficking victims, better define the rights of trafficking victims, create a centralized authority to coordinate national anti-trafficking efforts, and allocate specified funding for anti-trafficking programs.

Police in various communities have increasingly encouraged victims to participate in trafficking investigations and prosecutions, partially attributed to specialized anti-trafficking training for police and prosecutors. The government permits victims to reside in Russia pending the investigation and prosecution of their trafficker.

Prevention
Russia demonstrated progress in public awareness and prevention efforts during the reporting period. In January 2007, Russia enacted a new migration law that simplified the registration process for migrant workers in Russia and requires workers to register directly with the state; the previous law required employers to confiscate passports and other travel documents in order to register workers with the state, thereby making migrant workers more vulnerable to trafficking. In August, the Primorskiy Kray government sponsored a journalism competition, awarding a cash prize for the best new article on trafficking. Primorskiy Kray authorities also paid for the production of posters warning of the dangers of human trafficking and printed 30,000 pamphlets providing advice and information for Russians choosing to work abroad; these pamphlets were handed out at employment agencies and at ports-of-entry.

KRAINE (Tier 2 Watch List)

Ukraine is a source, transit, and destination country for men, women and children trafficked internationally for the purposes of commercial sexual exploitation and forced labor. Ukrainian women are trafficked to Russia, Poland, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, Lebanon, the Czech Republic, Italy, Portugal, Germany, Austria, Cyprus, Greece, Serbia, Montenegro, Spain, Hungary, and Israel for commercial sexual exploitation. Women from Central Asian countries such as Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan are trafficked through Ukraine to Europe for commercial sexual exploitation. Although reliable data is not available, Ukraine may also be a destination for people from former Soviet republics for forced labor and prostitution. In addition, internal trafficking occurs in Ukraine; men and women are trafficked within the country for the purposes of labor exploitation in the agriculture, service, and forced begging sectors, as well as for commercial sexual exploitation. Ukrainian children are trafficked both internally and transnationally for commercial sexual exploitation, forced begging, and involuntary servitude in the agriculture industry.

The Government of Ukraine does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking; however, it is making significant efforts to do so. Ukraine is placed on Tier 2 Watch List for its failure to provide evidence of increasing efforts to combat trafficking in persons over the last year, particularly in the area of punishing convicted traffickers. As with last year, many of the traffickers convicted in Ukrainian courts received probation. The government should take significant steps, to ensure that convicted traffickers are prosecuted and serve jail sentences.
The Ukrainian government should also improve its anti-trafficking efforts in other areas. Corruption is widespread in Ukraine, and there remain concerns about possible complicity in trafficking by government officials. The government should take steps to proactively investigate the nature and extent of complicity by government officials, and prosecute officials suspected of facilitating trafficking offenses. The March 2007 adoption of the National Anti-Trafficking in Persons program, which includes for the first time dedicated anti-trafficking funding, is a positive step, although higher levels of funding are necessary if the plan is to be effective. In particular, the government should improve its efforts to protect victims of trafficking by increasing funding to NGOs providing victims with comprehensive protection and rehabilitation services. Furthermore, the government should encourage victims' assistance in investigations by providing them with protection, ensuring their rights are protected in court, and providing guidance to courts on procedures for handling trafficking cases.

Prosecution
The Ukrainian government made insufficient progress in prosecuting and punishing trafficking offenses in 2006. The government prohibits all forms of trafficking through its Criminal Code's Article 149, which prescribes penalties that are sufficiently stringent and commensurate with those prescribed for other grave crimes. This year, the law enforcement community completed 101 criminal investigations and arrested 66 people on trafficking charges. In 2006, the government obtained verdicts against 111 traffickers, 86 of whom did not appeal their conviction. Nonetheless, of these 86 cases, 47 traffickers received probation rather than jail sentences. Most of the others received sentences of two to eight years' imprisonment, and the assets of 18 were confiscated. Ukraine's President and Prime Minister have both publicly acknowledged that corruption is a major problem for Ukraine. Possible instances of complicity in trafficking by government officials, such as border guards and officials responsible for licensing employment agencies, may not have been punished. Ukraine should demonstrate efforts to proactively investigate and punish government officials suspected of trafficking complicity.

As part of efforts to implement recent changes to Ukraine's anti-trafficking law, the Supreme Court conducted a series of seminars for judges to educate them about the reformed code, and police and prosecutors also underwent training. In September 2006, the Ministry of Interior established a special unit within its Anti-Trafficking in Persons Department to combat trafficking for labor exploitation and to monitor businesses involved in the employment of Ukrainians abroad; 68 officers stationed throughout the country staff this new unit. The government, however, initiated only four investigations of labor trafficking between September 2006 and January 2007, and few employment agencies believed to be involved in trafficking had their licenses revoked.

Protection
Ukraine did not demonstrate increased efforts to protect victims of trafficking over the reporting period, but continues to cooperate with internationally funded NGOs to provide protection services. The government does not directly finance shelters, medical or psychological care, or repatriations for victims, but provided a few shelters with subsidized facilities and in-kind logistical support. The government did not demonstrate implementation of systematic procedures for the identification of victims and their referral to victim service providers. Ukrainian embassies actively assisted in the return of 272 of their nationals this year and referred them to reintegration centers run by NGOs. Ukraine does not penalize victims for unlawful acts committed as a direct result of being trafficked. Victims' rights, however, are often not respected, as some judges and prosecutors have demonstrated unsympathetic, negative, and sarcastic attitudes toward victims. Ukrainian law does not provide foreign victims with legal alternatives to their removal to countries where they may face hardship or retribution.

Prevention
The government made some progress in preventing trafficking in persons during the reporting period. In 2006, the Border Guards closed nine channels of trafficking, prevented 43 women from being trafficked, and detained 29 traffickers. Border guards are tasked with screening for potential trafficking victims among people who cross the border. However, such screening provided few benefits since border guards had limited time to interview and little training to identify possible victims. Bribery and corruption continued to facilitate illegal migration. High-ranking government officials, including the Ministers of Interior and Family, Youth, and Sports, took part in events to raise awareness of trafficking. The government provided expertise and free advertising on radio and TV stations, and experts from the State Employment Service provided callers to the national anti-trafficking toll-free telephone hotline with information on legal employment overseas.

I would be interested in yoiur references for this information.

[kievstar]

If you want to make a difference go to the Brussels red light district.  Full of young girls from Eastern Europe and politicians from the Euro zone.  I live in area 2-3 weeks a month and walk through red light district to get to work - have to as it is very large and where most people work. 

Many politicians of Euro zone like hookers and if you do not change them you have a long battle.  Do not make this a mafia thing.  Mafia in Ukraine make a lot more money on other things and the girl business is not that profitable. 

[Diplomacy]

No the money is not in working girls.  Enforcement of prostitution and red light districts is not my point.  My point is that children are auctioned and so are woman, then shipped throughout the world.  It is the trafficking I am focused on.

I have no issue with a girl making money doing tricks on her own free will.  If you know of the girls in Brussels being taken against their will, I will notify somebody.  I know nothing about there. 

A child and pretty woman go for around $20,000 USD.  This is where the fast money is, then the buyer is the one that is the pimp or forced labor enforcer.  So if they have 100 people to auction that is $2,000,000.  If that is not real money, I really want to know what they are doing to make more than that.

The governments are corrupt, military is pointing to corruption, and the Mafia is often the puppet master.  It is all of them, without all of them it makes it higher risk and less reward.  Without stronger penalty and enforcement it will continue.  Look at the amount of cases given probation as penalty in Ukraine. 

The topic is humans as a commodity, I was trying to share my knowledge to the members.  I know the mafia has no real interest in tourists.  I also know they have many facets that they make money in.  What else and how much they make I know little about. 

I am sorry if people think I am trying to make it all about the Mafia, they are only part of the problem.

For me, you marry the girl then you marry the country.  You want to know what drives the women to seek WM, the culture and society are surely the driving factors.

What if FSUW had a real chance at making a good living,were treated great by men, the men were more involved with the children, the men helped with chores around the house, the men were not involved with excessive drinking, and men viewed them as equals, the women were not subject to sexual harassment, the women were not often being overlooked for a job that is given to a less qualified man?

You think that the pretty, intelligent, funny, playful, loving FSUW would be willing to take the risk of moving across the world and leave everything she knows?

That is why the OMG are beautiful men in the eyes of FSU women I know and have talked to that married WM. Then I discuss what their marriage was like to FSU husbands, and it is a lot to do with their mothers doing everything for them also.  They can do no wrong, and Mama makes the decisions.  The husbands listen to Mama.  They almost do nothing to help.

Yes, the women complain about it and at some point they become that MIL.  An area to watch with child raising IMO.  My friends are like me, so I guess maybe it is a slanted view.  All I know is they would all marry each other again in a heartbeat.  Yes, they fight like any married couple does.  It is how they handle them together after wood that makes the marriage. 

While in Ukraine,  I met some great husbands and we talked at length about how they did not want their children growing up without real love from their father.  I do not think that they are all bad by any means.       

Is there girls that just want to be rich? Yes

Are there girls playing WM like a fiddle? Yes

Are there women that will use a guy for citizenship? Yes

What I like about this board is there is a genuine interest by many in helping WM find a good wife.  Everyone deserves love and to be loved.  Nobody deserves the life of a slave.

I read and use a lot of information I got from this forum.  This was an area I know about.  Just trying to educate the boards.

[kievstar]

You need to focus on the end customer(s) of human trafficking.  Do you think all the girls in red light district are willing?  That is why their pimps sit right outside some of the  girls windows and some of these girls look miserable.  You need to really understand how this works before your going to fix anything. 

Process map the entire flow.  But as long as customers have demands your not going to stop it.  You need to stop the customers.  I think you have at least two customers you need to focus on - girls who have pimps (pimp is one customer of buying girls) and politicians who buy girls (they make the rules / laws).  When the Georgia crisis was going on the red light district in Brussels was booming - with the financial crisis going on the red light district was booming.  I saw some very miserable girls and happy pimps during this time. 

You really need to process map how this works from end to end process and than value map the key items which will drive the best results.  Starting at the front end is not the best way to look at this.   Your dealing with low level men who are a dime a dozen in finding girls / children.  Do you think the men who run this business are close enough to get caught - its just their low level men who get busted?  Go after the high paying customers. Than get them to talk.

I know you have a good cause but this will go on forever on unless you fix root causes.   


 

[Diplomacy]

I agree completely Kievstar.  The answer is both working from bottom and top.  The worlds oldest profession will always have customers.  No, I do not believe many are willing.  Proving it is another issue.

If we have insufficient laws to break up rings.  Now, you are also looking at low level thugs being passed on to get to higher people and government officials.  The girls in Brussels in this case are just one aspect of this.

The other is that children are victims of sex acts.  This is not some red light district, it is in some hidden location.  The other is slave labor, and they are forced into farms, construction and sweat shops.  You do not catch those people hanging out on the corner.

When you look at the auction, there are many people that are involved with several locations and have different needs they are buying slaves for.  They then watch them and map out the rings from there.

This is futile if there is no enforcement, and then proper help for the victims being returned.