Wife split!

[Maxx2]

Actually Jet we are in complete agreement in the things you wrote about observing one's perspective spouse around friends and family and in trying circumstances. This way to assess them as good wife material IMO would work a good share of the time... but not always.

I am not trying to suggest divorce (except in Wayne's) is in anyone's future here. I wish everyone in this endeavor success and happiness. You and Lil though being a married couple having a number of other married AM/RW couples friends no doubt have more info that I do on how many of these marriages are fragile or heading for the rocks. I only know the one's that are on the rocks already.

BTW if you are interested in the documentary film I made send me an address. It's getting good reviews.


Maxx
  

[Maxx2]

I suppose it depends on what you "hope" for Maxx. What is it that YOU hope for?

- Dan

An enlightenment for my brothers and sisters here. I do not want them to mislead others or be mislead by a false confidence.


Maxx

[Admin]

An enlightenment for my brothers and sisters here. I do not want them to mislead others or be mislead by a false confidence.


Maxx

And you have lost "hope" that this topic accomplishes that - at least for some??

- Dan

[Maxx2]

Okay, then there are other factors at play. My guess is that she was 20-30 years younger. She made him feel young and he was so enamored that he had such a beautiful woman on his arm...

Her looks I would describe as attractive but certainly not beautiful. He told me the same thing today when I talked with him. He said he wasn't going for the hottest women he could get. She was in her later 30's and had a near grown son. He was in his later 40's.

[Maxx2]

And you have lost "hope" that this topic accomplishes that - at least for some??

- Dan

Yes if they are influenced wrongly by the biased and those who want to appear all wise and knowing.


Maxx

[Admin]

Yes if they are influenced wrongly by the biased and those who want to appear all wise and knowing.


Maxx

Keyword in your hypothesis is *IF*.

I guess we have a different level of faith in the readers/participants of RWD. I believe our readers are sharp enough to read and interpret what is written here, and discern the variety of biases on display. Don't you?

- Dan

[OlgaH]

I believe our readers are sharp enough to read and interpret what is written here, and discern the variety of biases on display. Don't you?

- Dan

Dan I also believe...  but some of the readers are also to quick  to use their imagination and they lose the given facts in the variety of their imaginative biases 

[Admin]

Dan I also believe...  but some of the readers are also to quick  to use their imagination and they lose the given facts in the variety of their imaginative biases 

That is a DIFFERENT issue.

We have transmitters of information (which is what you are referencing) - and we have receivers of information (that is what Maxx and I were referencing - I *think*).

As I understood it, Maxx was expressing a loss of "hope" that readers would miss "enlightenment" for fear of them being "influenced wrongly by the biased..."

I have a different perspective.

I believe everyone here - you (Olga), Maxx, me, Wayne.... everyone, has biases. It would be unnatural, maybe even impossible, for us to have a board absent biases.

I further believe - wholeheartedly - in the RWD Vision, which states (among other things):

RWD practices tolerance of diversity in opinions expressed and experiences shared, and promotes the notion of individual choice wherever and whenever possible.

Our readers and members are easily smart enough to be able to see through most, or all, of the many biases on display. They have the ability, and are encouraged, to draw their own conclusions from amongst the morass of information they find here.

- Dan

[Maxx2]

I believe our readers are sharp enough to read and interpret what is written here
- Dan

Dan, most people cannot read the headlines to determine we are living in economic shaky times and make preparations for such. They anesthetize themselves to the problems of this world with football, sports and RW. And maybe a little Jack Daniels. I like these people even though I get irritated with them at times. A GCG is like cancer. You get to a good doctor as soon as possible and have it cut it without delay or regret. Many of the people here see this as a game and think that their opinions carry the same weight of a honest RW, an immigration attorney and a veteran of a GCG attack. They need to cool it like I do when I post on a thread about happy married life with a RW wife. Ken taught me that lesson 5 years ago. I mean what do I know about that subject?


Maxx

      

[felix8787]

Dan I also believe...  but some of the readers are also to quick  to use their imagination and they lose the given facts in the variety of their imaginative biases 

Jeez, I know I have a pretty vivid imagination  . But concerning Wayne's situation, I thought about alot of the stuff that he posted and have my own thoughts and concerns.
There are questions from my thoughts that I pose to him that I have thought about. Whether he answers them or not to me is not important but rather that he answers these questions to himself.  
Being that I have an adventurous attitude, I don't simply shake aside any valuable information from RWD. As a WINNER (just joking maxx) I have come to learn alot from RWD and from others who I talk to from RWD, you know who you are...THANKS!  

felix8787

[OlgaH]

That is a DIFFERENT issue.

We have transmitters of information (which is what you are referencing) - and we have receivers of information (that is what Maxx and I were referencing - I *think*).

I'm not sure how much it different... how about the receivers receive information and then they transmit the information through their imagination 

[OlgaH]

Jeez, I know I have a pretty vivid imagination  .
felix8787

and you should, you are in army and before making a move you should imagine the variety of "echo" on your move  for the country's safety 

[Admin]

Dan, most people cannot read the headlines to determine we are living in economic shaky times and make preparations for such. They anesthetize themselves to the problems of this world with football, sports and RW. And maybe a little Jack Daniels. I like these people even though I get irritated with them at times. A GCG is like cancer. You get to a good doctor as soon as possible and have it cut it without delay or regret. Many of the people here see this as a game and think that their opinions carry the same weight of a honest RW, an immigration attorney and a veteran of a GCG attack. They need to cool it like I do when I post on a thread about happy married life with a RW wife. Ken taught me that lesson 5 years ago. I mean what do I know about that subject?


Maxx

Maxx,

You and I clearly have differences of opinion. For example, you wrote; "most people cannot read the headlines to determine we are living in economic shaky times and make preparations for such."

I do not agree. I doubt there is more than a small percentage of the US population that is not very-aware of the fact the country is suffering from economic difficulties. There certainly are differing opinions as to the magnitude of the problems and appropriate responses - but there is little doubt in my mind that most every member of RWD has an appreciation for the shaky economy.

I also differ with you on the consequential effects - but that is because I differ with your fundamental premise.

Maxx, you *do* understand that your CHOICE is to place yourself in a situation where you are the recipient of a highly-skewed sample of RW/AM relationships - don't you?

Assuming you acknowledge this - would you also agree that your perspective is influenced by the sampling you are exposed to?

Kind of like the healthcare professionals who work in pediatric oncology. They simply cannot remain in that field for a very long time, lest they lose all rational perspective.

Nobody (I suspect) will argue that there are not heinous behaviors on the part of some RW. At the same time, most rational persons would acknowledge that there are equally heinous behaviors - arguably MORE heinous, in fact - on the part of some WM.

The key is balance. Do you believe your position/bias in this topic is balanced Maxx?

- Dan

[OlgaH]

Nobody (I suspect) will argue that there are not heinous behaviors on the part of some RW. At the same time, most rational persons would acknowledge that there are equally heinous behaviors - arguably MORE heinous, in fact - on the part of some WM.

Dan you gave information "Approximately 40 percent of people taking the survey are divorced from their cross-cultural spouse".

It would be really interesting to know the real causes, but it seems that neither women nor men have a desire to share their sad stories, and by Wayne's example of sharing his problems it is not wonder why they have no desire.

[Admin]

Dan you gave information "Approximately 40 percent of people taking the survey are divorced from their cross-cultural spouse".

It would be really interesting to know the real causes, but it seems that neither women nor men have a desire to share their sad stories, and by Wayne's example of sharing his problems it is not wonder why they have no desire.

No, we do not have all the stories - BUT - we do have the data/information from their responses to the question about the major contributors to their divorces.

Yes, those are merely hard cold numbers - but there is useful insight into the most significant contributors to divorce according to our survey respondents.

FWIW

- Dan

[Gator]

Maxx and William have more experience with GCG women than the rest of us combined.  I agree with them, even though I have no personal experience, that some of these RW could deceive almost anyone here on this board.   

Perhaps we were lucky to have avoided the GCG equivalent of Jeffrey Dahmer.   Yet I also feel, again without personal experience, that most RW with GCG motivations are transparent with time, observation, analysis and introspection.   Unfortunately, many men are in the haze of infatuation.  I have been there, and it takes time for the haze to clear.


Yes, these women are deceiving men, yet are the men not also deceiving themselves?  A man should make four lists to be analytical about his decision making.

1.   Why does he think that he knows this woman?   

2.          What does he adore most about his RW?  If heading his list are her age and beauty, then he is probably deceiving himself.  Her inner beauty should be at the top, and one mandatory item is her being painfully direct and honest (and I found many RW to be this way).

3.   Why is his RW happy with him?  If at the top of his list are “I’m a nice guy,” “I have some money,” and “my American passport,” then he probably will never experience an enduring and fulfilling relationship.

4.          Why does he want to marry a woman from a strange land, work through a time demanding period of adjustment, and suffer the possibility of divorce?

If the three lists are weak, it is time to “dump and run.”   Go find another RW (and there are tens of thousands) or return to AW.  Do not continue to chase her even though you have already spent a lot of time and money.  Use the relationship as a learning experience.

[William3rd]

or the gcg equivalent of Scott Peterson. . . .

and its not just russians, although most of the Russian cases I have seen have been pretty bad.

The first sign of falsehood, whether it is different versions of stories of their lives or different answers to the same question isnt just language differences or cultural differences, its psychological differences.

BTW- I have seen GCG travelling in packs-birds of a feather flocking together, so if you spot one, her close friends and confidants are likely cut from the same cloth. EX- her friends covering up for infidelity, etc.

[GoodOlBoy]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with some of the members on this forum. I know for a fact it is NOT always possible to spot a GCG.

A very good childhood friend of mine in San Diego, CA married a very nice, young, Filipino women. They were inseparable for 3 1/2 years. I saw them every week together. ABSOLUTELY no sign of any troubles. She had family in California. I met her family. They all seemed like very nice people. She got her permanent GC (10 year card), had a BIG celebration and then she was GONE.

The way she told him goodbye was unbelievable.

My buddy was preparing to got to work one morning. He sat down to have breakfast. She brings him breakfast over to the table. Puts it down in front of him. Sits down across the table from him and says: " I AM LEAVING YOU". He told me he was half asleep, so he asked her: "What did you say?". She repeated the same words only this time she added: "I NEVER LOVED YOU".

Obviously he was devastated. He didn't go to work. This is how I found out that something was wrong. I called him at his job all the time. So, I called him at work that same day and one of his coworkers told me he didn't come in.

So, I called him at home to see what was up. I will never forget the way my friend's voice sounded that day. He really was a broken man. I knew something was very wrong. He couldn't tell me the whole thing, so after work I stopped at his house.

My buddy NEVER  saw this coming. Heck, I didn't see it coming either, no way.

[Misha]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with some of the members on this forum. I know for a fact it is NOT always possible to spot a GCG.

Maybe, but they should still put the effort into trying. Looking both ways when I cross the street is not guarantee that I won't be run over by a bus, but it does decrease the odds quite a bit.

As for me, I am glad that I live in Canada. My wife has her permanent residence and she could leave at any time.

[GoodOlBoy]

Misha, Canada maybe on to something. You know if the USA adopted the same idea (immediate residence), maybe we wouldn't have all of these crazy and conniving women filing false DA charges and playing all of the other silly "loophole" games, that can ruin a man's life, so they can stay here and not get deported.

[groovlstk]

People can put up a front for years if need be.

Maxx, I'm sure there are rare examples of people who can assume a false identity and pretend to love someone they loathe for years, all for the love of a green card. Every year there are also a few dogs born with six legs.

I know you prefer to think of GCGs as the devil incarnate, but if you scratch the surface a little you'll see that it's not easy for a woman to pretend to love a man for an extended period of time. Prostitutes do it for a few hours - but only with money up front. For GCGs and girls who simply want a better life and hope to fall in love with their sponsor, it's easy as pie via email. It's more difficult maintaining that facade during the first date, when Romeo makes his first trip. It's even more difficult when spending a week together in Egypt. It's exponentially more difficult when she has to live with him 24/7, away from friends and family. In another post you claimed that GCGs move to another bedroom because they "hate" their victims and love to humiliate them. I'm not buying it. A GCG like Wayne or Gary's wife may have disgust and zero respect for her sponsor, but not hatred. I can understand the inclination to think this way - in the absence of love, at least hatred is a strong emotion, it's much more palatable to a man's self-respect to believe a woman hates hates him rather than feels nothing but cold indifference.

In looking at the train wrecks recounted here and on other boards, how long does it usually take for women to find an excuse to move out of the bedroom? If GCGs were such good actresses, why do so many drop their pretentions so quickly upon arrival? Please don't tell me it's to torture their sponsors - it's because they're exhausted from humiliating themselves by doling out counterfeit smiles, holding hands with men they physically loathe, and counting the hours to when the lights go out at night and they'll have to have to grit their teeth and spread their legs again.

The signs are NOT in bold face. To suggest state that they are is dangerous to men in the process. I am sure Groovistk you will come back at me with fire and insult from your offended pride.

Maxx, I've been posting on this board for years, occasionally I've disagreed with you but I've never insulted you. I respect the work you're doing and if you look back to the beginning of this thread, one of my first posts was to urge Wayne to contact you rather than listen to the dangerous crap other guys were advising him to do. I agree with you for the most part and despite what you might think, I would be happy to see Wayne get an anullment and would chip in to pay for his wife's airfare back to Russia. The problem with trying to recognize the complexity of a situation is that zealots on either side want to tar me with their brush - either I have to scream Wayne's wife is a demon and a whore, or I have to call Wayne a liar. Nothing in between is acceptable.

Just keep the straw man arguments and hyperbole to the minimum OK?

Maxx, your posts in this forum are often limited to a few paragraphs from unverified, anecdotal - what some might call hyperbolic email accounts - that you receive from allegedly innocent guys who wake up one morning to find they're facing domestic violence charges or worse from very bad women. There is never any context, there is never any rebuttal from the accused.

I understand you're not a journalist and you have no obligation to get to the bottom of these issues, your role is to help guys who married GCGs. There is enormous value in telling these stories to new guys lest they think it's OK to marry a pretty stranger and work on the love & relationship part back in the States. But it seems to me that when you post these stories or when other guys like Gary and Wayne send us postcards from their trainwrecks, you get a bee in your bonnet when people point out the obvious mistakes and boldface signs that these men ignored. They weren't struck by lightening, and it's just as important to point out the signs men should look for to avoid GCGs as it is to acknowledge they exist.

[kievstar]

You will know if your being deceived by a Russian woman if you have common sense.  Not everybody has it though.  I also think Chinese are better at not showing emotions generally than Russians.  Chinese / Koreans generally will put up with a bunch of crap for a longtime and than explode one day.  I have friends married to Koreans / Chinese and how they treat their wives is terrible. Not physical abuse but a little mental abuse.   

Very normal in China for a woman to leave her family for 5 plus years to make money than comeback to her original family. 

Russian women I know show a lot of signs and hard for them to not show it over a long period of time.  Just my opinion.   

[groovlstk]

So, how many times people should spend together to know each other better and what they should do to know each other better?

Groovistk's first meeting face to face  with his lady was in May 2006 (about 8 days) and in June(or July) 2006 during his second visit she accepted his proposal (if I'm wrong please correct me and I give my apology in advance for confusion) My story is almost similar to AnastassiaAsh's story - "married a man who I met only once and that was the only AM I met". Wayne knew his wife (or thought that he knew her or at least were trying to know her better) since 2005... I also posted a story of my friend.

Do we have exact formula for the time of spending and acting together and "checking" each other as an indicator of success in knowing each other better and more over knowing the person's real intentions and thoughts?   We try to deduce such formula, or just general thesis (it is not bad, it is very good and can be very useful) but it is just impossible to apply it to every case.

Olga,

My history, for better or worse, is detailed here vividly. Were my wife a GCG, we'd have had sporadic contact in between visits. I made this post a few weeks ago:

I spent a total of four weeks face time with my wife before we were engaged. But during our courtship we spent hours together on the phone and in ICQ each and every day. I'd say approximately 6 hours per day, more on weekends. It was mutual - if I had a lunch meeting and couldn't phone her during our normal time she was really disappointed. Her desire to know me was as great as my desire to know her. I sometimes see guys who are engaged and exchange an email every few days and a phone call now and then with their fiancees, and I can't understand it. These women will be relying on their men for everything when they arrive here, why aren't they more curious in getting to know him? Why are they so indifferent?

[Wayne]

Changes.  In the last 4 years, I noticed some changes in wife.  Before, she was near sighted and wore glasses.  Now, her eyesight is corrected and she does not use glasses nor contacts. 

Her teeth were in very bad condition, gapes, dark color and at least one tooth missing.  Now, her teeth look very much better.  Light color.  Implants.  And I knew she had braces because she asked for money, and it was cheaper to do it in Russia.

I think that she is now about 10 pounds lighter.  Before, she wore conservative clothing.  Now, she likes tight and sexy.

She used to have a very nasty looking scar on her belly.

I have never smoked.  I never dated any girl if I knew she smoked.  Wife did not smoke but she says that about 6 months before coming to USA she started.  So this is a big surprise for me, and I did not like it.  No one smokes in my house, so she went out on the porch.  However, when she got the car, she liked smoking in the car.  I would not ride in the car with her if she was smoking, and told her to stop the car and get out to smoke.  She used some strange, long, skinny cigarettes that were not sold in most stores.  She spent about $15 a day on cigarettes and made special trips to the store to buy them.  Wife stopped smoking for about a week a few monthes ago, but started up again. 

I think wife's attitudes changed.  A few years ago, L was going through a divorce a few months before the 10 year green card.  I think L did the form for removing conditions by herself.  Wife thought it was very strange, at that time, that L wanted to stay in America.  She thought that L should return to Russia.  Now think about it!  L was a nurse in Russia and earned very little.  As an RN here, she could earn about 20 times more and there are many jobs available.  L never drove in Russia.  Now she has a new car!  Her Son is about 18 years old.  If they returned to Russia, he might have to serve in the military.  Remember, I met L and her Son and L's Mother in Russia before they came to US.  Her son would not do well in the military.  L has never gone back to Russia and has lived here for 4 years. 

Wife has several other women friends who came to USA and married.  I do not know much about them, but I know wife talks to them on the phone a lot.  It seems that wife is following the same pattern and being guided by these other women.  I don't think that wife is the same person that she was 4 years ago. 

[Misha]

I know you prefer to think of GCGs as the devil incarnate, but if you scratch the surface a little you'll see that it's not easy for a woman to pretend to love a man for an extended period of time. Prostitutes do it for a few hours - but only with money up front. For GCGs and girls who simply want a better life and hope to fall in love with their sponsor, it's easy as pie via email.

Good points by Groov. There are a number of things that can be done to minimize the risks of marrying a woman who has ulterior motives:

1. Communication, communication, communication. Yes, there are exceptions, but most women (RW and AW and Canadian Women) put a premium on talking. You should be able to talk to your wife and fiancée for hours at a time. God, there are times that I must beg my wife to stop talking because I am nodding off and want to sleep. If you are with a woman who is not enthusiastic about talking to you, that is a bad sign. If we look at Wayne's account, his wife moved gradually into the other room to watch television with her daughter. His wife was simply not interested in talking to Wayne. Also, I note that Wayne did not answer yet how well he knew his wife before she arrived in the United States. How much did they talk while she was in Russia? Did they talk for hours each day as was Groov's case?

2. Shared interests. Did Wayne visit all the art galleries with his wife in Russia? Did he find things that they enjoyed doing together as a couple? Call me a romantic sap if you will, but I believe that it is essential for a couple to have activities (other than sex) that they enjoy doing together. If your wife actually likes spending time with you, it is unlikely she will dump you as soon as she gets her green card.

3. Relations with her friends and family. What kind of relationship do you have with the other people in her life? Does her mother and father like you? Do they respect you? Do they enjoy spending time with you? If everybody knows that you are just the poor "mule" that will be dumped in a few years, they won't usually put much effort into getting to know you.

Now, if you have a relationship with no communication, no shared interests and no shared ties with people outside of your relationship, that is not a good sign.

Other times when you should be extremely cautious: extreme disparities in age and looks. If you have a much younger and a much younger woman immediately falling in love with a much older and much less attractive older man, that should raise a certain degree of caution.

To sum it all up, there is more to it than just acting by clever GCG. If men truly look at their relationship before and after the wedding, they should be able to know if the woman they love is into them. There is nothing mysterious about it, and does not involve trying to turn lead into gold...

Misha