Wife split!

[Vaughn]

It's no surprise that when I mentioned to friends and family that I was heading to the FSU
to meet someone, most warned me about being used like a mule.

Also no surprise was my future wife's perception based on "events" that affected her own
friends, coworkers and acquaintences. Visiting AMs came to shatter hearts, rarely to marry.

The two of us had many notions to overcome together. We're not at all ashamed to admit we
observed one another's behavior through the courtship with keen interest. Both being divorced,
neither was anxious to be burned again.

[Mishenka]

Vaughn, you took the words right out of my mouth!

This beauty by my side is a very careful woman. She is loving and precious to me. Still we are both cautious. We see the world changing around us and wonder what is next? Will hardships bring us closer or tear us apart? Time will tell. We stay as positive as possible. Everyday she is an ecouragment to me.


Legal, you have it right,  we are very lucky men! 

[LEGAL]

Vaughn, you took the words right out of my mouth!

This beauty by my side is a very careful woman. She is loving and precious to me. Still we are both cautious. We see the world changing around us and wonder what is next? Will hardships bring us closer or tear us apart? Time will tell. We stay as positive as possible. Everyday she is an ecouragment to me.


Legal, you have it right,  we are very lucky men! 

Excellent Misha & Vaughn  Olga and I feel the same way.

[Admin]

It's simple math. Look at the ratio of women registered on dating sites and with agencies vs. a much smaller number of WM. Ratio of women vs. men on "dating tours" by sleezy operators. Ratio of K1 visas promised vs. K1 visas received. The number of failed K1s when girls return home without marriage - most are because the man refused to marry (culturally, a woman is more inclined to try and go ahead with the wedding even when she has doubts, because it's a social suicide for a woman to be dumped right before the alter).

How many of internet international dating cases end up in marriage? Not very many. How many then end up in divorces? Still fewer. How many of those divorces were because the wife was a GCG and not because of everything else that could have gone wrong - again, still fewer.

Simple math dictates that many more RW are hurt during the international "courtship" process than AM who were unlucky (or more often, blind enough) to marry a GCG.

"Simple math" implies there are values to be used in the mathematical equations.

So let's see if we can deal in some facts.

Here is a table that describes the number of K-1 visas issued to beneficiaries from a variety of countries in FY 2007:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

Country	K-1 Visas Issued in 2007
Belarus	128
Estonia	12
Georgia	9
Kazakhstan	48
Kyrgyzstan	37
Latvia	30
Lithuania	30
Moldova	57
Poland	179
Romania	233
Russia	1272
Slovakia	26
Ukraine	891
Uzbekistan	52

The total number of K-1 visas issued in 2007 for all countries was 32,991.

The total number of non-immigrant admissions to the US in 2007 was more than 37,000,000.

My source is: U.S. DHS, Office of Immigration Statistics

In your message, you make reference to: "The number of failed K1s when girls return home without marriage." Do you have those numbers available for review?

You also make several references to ratios - as follows:

* the ratio of women registered on dating sites and with agencies vs. a much smaller number of WM.
* Ratio of women vs. men on "dating tours" by sleezy operators.
* Ratio of K1 visas promised vs. K1 visas received

Do you have numeric values used to develop those "ratios"?

You wrote: "How many of internet international dating cases end up in marriage? Not very many."

How many is "not very many"?

You wrote: "How many then end up in divorces?"

Now this question we can answer - sort of. From the Survey of Cross-Cultural Marriage and Divorce, we know the divorce rate is a tad less than 41%. It still does not explicitly answer your rhetorical question because we do not have the basis from your initial question to use for the calculation - but still, it is *something*.

Can you point me/us to some of the explicit data you have to support your positions?

Thanks,

- Dan

[Gator]

Simple math dictates that many more RW are hurt during the international "courtship" process than AM who were unlucky (or more often, blind enough) to marry a GCG.

Russiangirl,

Why are RW hurt by AM dregs?  For the same reason that AM are hurt by RW GCGs.  Neither really knew the person they were marrying or hoping to marry?

So why didn't these RW insist on taking the necessary time to know her man before committing to him?

BTW, some of your examples of hurt done to RW are examples of domestic abuse, punishable in America as a crime. 

[Mishenka]

Dating sites? Please Consider the number of FAKE profiles on 50% of the Russian dating sites. The same profiles are taken from other sites owned by the same crooks and put there by the webmaster to make their site look bigger. I would consider one out of ten profiles to be real women who are sincere in their intentions and there to find a husband. The rest are either hired to write emails for the web site or scammers.  I have joined such sites just to see what response I get and found 20 - 30 emails in my inbox within 5 minutes of signing up. It's ridiculous to believe any of these are real women. Rarely will they write a man first. The webmasters are using auto emailer programs dropping emails in every mans inbox to get him to spend money to read and answer letters. On the other end of the email is a hired man or woman writing men back. Such a scam.  Maybe half the sites on the web are genuine. The other half are on black lists. It's a cruel world.  Be wise.

[Russiangirl]

Dan, I'm a banker. I'm trained to extrapolate the trends from a few points of data. In this particular case however, the evidence is so overbearing I'm really surprised you didn't reach the same conclusions.

Only 30K visas issued (lets say "fruits") vs. how many "fruitless seeds", i.e., those searching for love and getting burnt? Increase of heartbreak is exponential if you trace back each successful "internet K1 marriage" to all unfulfilled relationships.

Come on, Dan. AM on this board freely admit that the quality of women they are able to woo in Russia is way above what they could hope for in US - why is that, if not because of overbearing ratio of RW searching for a mate abroad vs. a much smaller pool of WM searching for a RW?

I saw first hand the situation in Russia in the 90s - the lines of hundreds of girls outside a hotel to meet a dozen WM at a "social". The horror row of young 12-13 y.o. prostitutes herded in front of Intourist hotel (on a side note - I'm in favor of cutting off the dicks of those despicable scumbags who prey on children). The agencies promising a 20 y.o. sex toy to a 60 y.o. old fart, and turning away women after 35 as "too old". The friends who got all excited about a special guy who was coming to visit from US or Germany or Sweden, and who ten years later were still hoping to find their one true love, meanwhile their former honeys keep coming to Russia and Ukraine and "sampling" more and more girls.

You want statistics? Why don't you estimate the number of RW searching for love abroad (used to be a country-wide phenomena, maybe lessened in recent years) vs. successful marriages. Think about the balance of power in such relationships. Take into account the type of man typically interested in a relationship with a disenfranchised foreigner and his reasons for doing so. Estimate the projected heartbreak, and weep, LOL.  

[Russiangirl]

Dating sites? Please Consider the number of FAKE profiles on 50% of the Russian dating sites.

I agree. Plenty of mustached "Vanya the Scammer" masquerading as "Natasha", LOL.

And IMO, when you exclude "fake RW" from the equation, and leave just RW searching for love - the number of so called scammers and GCGs falls dramatically.

[ScottinCrimea]

Dan, I'm a banker. I'm trained to extrapolate the trends from a few points of data.

It seems to me that the bankers' claims of expertise at extrapolating trends has taken a pretty big hit lately. 

[Russiangirl]

It seems to me that the bankers' claims of expertise at extrapolating trends has taken a pretty big hit lately. 

Depends on a banker. My results of the last two years are phenomenal, unlike the markets, LOL(but then, I'm a bear rejoicing over unmasking of the housing bubble and bitter end of securitizations and the world awash in liquidity). 

[Mishenka]

Depends on a banker. My results of the last two years are phenomenal, unlike the markets, LOL(but then, I'm a bear rejoicing over unmasking of the housing bubble and bitter end of securitizations and the world awash in liquidity). 

knowing how corrupt banking is in Russia, it must make you sick to find banking in USA is even more corrupt! Then to see the crooks bailed out by tax payers really makes our stomachs turn.

Mishenka

[Russiangirl]

Then to see the crooks bailed out by tax payers really makes our stomachs turn.

It sure does. 

And the worst is, TPTB never learn. They're trying their best to re-ignite the bubble, to stop deflation. I'm very much afraid we'll end up with uncontrollable inflation as a result. Not yet, for now deflation rules... But lets revisit in a year.

[Admin]

Dan, I'm a banker. I'm trained to extrapolate the trends from a few points of data. In this particular case however, the evidence is so overbearing I'm really surprised you didn't reach the same conclusions.

Only 30K visas issued (lets say "fruits") vs. how many "fruitless seeds", i.e., those searching for love and getting burnt? Increase of heartbreak is exponential if you trace back each successful "internet K1 marriage" to all unfulfilled relationships.

Come on, Dan. AM on this board freely admit that the quality of women they are able to woo in Russia is way above what they could hope for in US - why is that, if not because of overbearing ratio of RW searching for a mate abroad vs. a much smaller pool of WM searching for a RW?

I saw first hand the situation in Russia in the 90s - the lines of hundreds of girls outside a hotel to meet a dozen WM at a "social". The horror row of young 12-13 y.o. prostitutes herded in front of Intourist hotel (on a side note - I'm in favor of cutting off the dicks of those despicable scumbags who prey on children). The agencies promising a 20 y.o. sex toy to a 60 y.o. old fart, and turning away women after 35 as "too old". The friends who got all excited about a special guy who was coming to visit from US or Germany or Sweden, and who ten years later were still hoping to find their one true love, meanwhile their former honeys keep coming to Russia and Ukraine and "sampling" more and more girls.

You want statistics? Why don't you estimate the number of RW searching for love abroad (used to be a country-wide phenomena, maybe lessened in recent years) vs. successful marriages. Think about the balance of power in such relationships. Take into account the type of man typically interested in a relationship with a disenfranchised foreigner and his reasons for doing so. Estimate the projected heartbreak, and weep, LOL.  

RG,

You raise numerous points - not all following a common trajectory.

>>the evidence is so overbearing<<

What "evidence", exactly? So far, you have not presented any "evidence" - only your opinions. Not that your opinions are incorrect - but discerning minds would like to have more basis for extrapolating a conclusion.

>>Only 30K visas issued (lets say "fruits") vs. how many "fruitless seeds", i.e., those searching for love and getting burnt? Increase of heartbreak is exponential if you trace back each successful "internet K1 marriage" to all unfulfilled relationships.<<

Your statements are filled with value judgments - and except for your assertion of opinion and appeal to logic, there is no other basis provided. This statement above is a prime example. You assert, logically, that if 30k visas were issued, there is a larger number if we could count the number of relationships that never progressed to a visa. Then, however, there is a break in logic when you introduce the negatives of "getting burnt" and "heartbreak." Relationships founder for all sorts of reasons - some from heartbreak brought on by one or the other partner. Some founder and are mutually amicable - and everything in between and more. Yours is an overtly cynical, and likely imbalanced, position.

>>You want statistics? Why don't you estimate the number of RW searching for love abroad (used to be a country-wide phenomena, maybe lessened in recent years) vs. successful marriages.<<

Yes, I *do* prefer statistics - but only those based on a sound foundation. To your question about "Why don't you estimate...." - well, I question the ability to produce any credible estimate of the sort you suggest. Can you prepare the "estimate" you describe? If so - please proceed, and report back your conclusions and the basis for those conclusions. I assure you it would be met with significant interest here.

>>Think about the balance of power in such relationships.<<

Tell me more. What, exactly, do you see as the constituents in the "balance of power" for both parties?

>>Take into account the type of man typically interested in a relationship with a disenfranchised foreigner and his reasons for doing so. Estimate the projected heartbreak, and weep, LOL.<<

Specifically, what "type of man" do you believe that to be?

- Dan

[LEGAL]

I guess now we are going into stereotyping!

[OlgaH]

Russiangirl,
 BTW, some of your examples of hurt done to RW are examples of domestic abuse, punishable in America as a crime. 

DISABUSING THE DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC
ABUSE: HOW WOMEN BATTER MEN AND THE
ROLE OF THE FEMINIST STATE
LINDA KELLY*
http://www.law.fsu.edu/Journals/lawreview/downloads/304/kelly.pdf


In Defense of Abused Men
Women must speak up in support of men
http://www.sheridanhill.com/batteredmen.html

"I took a lot of scratches and bruises from my wife over the years because she knew I wouldn’t hit her back. But it will affect me for the rest of my life. It demoralizes you. It makes you almost dysfunctional with the opposite sex. People don’t understand; it’s not a matter of being more powerful.”

I watched the Maxx's documentary "Avi's story", it is very sad, and an US. Immigration Attorney, woman, said same thing  - some women know how to use VAWA to get what they want

[Doll]

I wonder why the high priests of anti-GCG cult (Maxx, OlgaH) never seem to mention the regrettable fact - many more RW are hurt in relationships with WM than vise versa. Even the best of WM - the decent, honest, reliable kind - sometimes end up hurting the girls badly, just because the differences are too great and the obstacles to common ground too many...

The balance of power is tilted severely in favor of WM. This also may explain the disproportionate number of excrements of society - from control freaks to sex tourists to child molesters - who pray on foreign women & kids, from Philippines to Russia to Thailand.

If we looked at total numbers of RW who had their hearts broken -

* thousands of women "courted", bedded, then discarded,

* thousands of would-be-fiancees dumped at various stages of the process while the man with a "back up plan" cut a swath through many "prospects",

* many failed K1s who returned home to the ridicule and pity of neighbors, family, friends, and co-workers because their guy decided he didn't want to marry after all, (worse yet for those girls who foolishly severed the ties with their old life only to be kicked out on the street like a no longer wanted pet),

* wives who had to withstand years of mental abuse from their paranoid husband, his friends, and in-laws silently or openly accusing them of being GCGs, (and by the way, the fastest way to kill love is to accuse the one who loves you of being a GCG),

* wives who suffered idiotic husbands who threatened to "ship them back" as if she were a parcel, not a breathing living feeling human being,

* women who were unlucky enough to get involved with drecks of society unable to find a local woman to spit in his direction, or with a control freak whose own insignificance can only be soothed by sadistic emotional (sometimes physical) torture of those weaker,

* women who were really unlucky and got involved with con artists who swindled them of all their money and property (e.g., made wife sell her apartment in Moscow, "invested" and "lost" the money, then divorced her),

* women who are being used by opportunistic bankrupt husbands to help pay alimony to his ex, child support to his kids, and his ever increasing debts,

where do I stop counting?... the numbers of RW who were humiliated, used, lied to, cheated on, and emotionally scarred from their relationships with WM are thousands upon thousands... And when you compare these multitude of vulnerable women with a few rotten apples - "GCGs" - and the few WM who got hurt - it's not even funny.

There's such a huge disbalance here, and yet, we find some posters cultivating the scare of "Oh My God! the Russian GCGs are coming!", so utterly focused on a small sub-set of problematic RW/AM relationships, while completely ignoring the other side of the picture...

You know what, I get Maxx. I understand where he's coming from, even though I do not agree with his crusade.

I firmly believe he's hurting more than he's helping - those few normal decent guys who could have been happy, but won't, because even if they were lucky enough to find a compatible woman and overcome the multitude of language and cultural differences, if they listen to Maxx, they will break her heart and exhaust her patience by their suspicions.

There're enough obstacles on the road to happiness for international marriages - but lets heap on more, by inciting paranoia over GCGs, or by hiding the ugly truth of a mirror ("GCG") being blamed for a man's shortcomings...   

agree 100%

[kievstar]

Doll, I agree RW the victim.  Even in Wayne's case the truth came out.  Usually two sides to every story and since your bringing a woman across the ocean you better know this girl.  If you do not, the man should be at fault.  Men need to date in their league and make sure they have mutual interests and agreements on things.  You date a girl more than 5 years younger than you and it does not work shame on you you better do your homework.  Men need to know when to cut the ties before marriage.  Men should also put their girl in school for English before coming to their country.  If she cannot talk with complex English vocabulary, than you should wait until she does.  If she has a kid, you should live in her country for 6 months.    If she really likes to work, this is going to be a problem and you better tell her working may not happen for years.

I have not yet seen one case where there were not signs - man was just to foolish.  To many men do not visit enough, ask right questions, really know there girl, and really rush to get to the wedding chapel.  Also, you date a girl out of your league she will trade up unless your a good husband. 

Gold diggers are easy to spot.  There in every country. Same as green card girls.  Men please do your homework with your big head.  Otherwise you should pay the 50% penalty and spousal abuse claim.  Hopefully will make you smarter in the future. 

[Doll]

Even in Wayne's case the truth came out.

Which is...?

[Admin]

agree 100%

Doll,

I guess it is not surprising that there are others who agree with russiangirl's assertions. It is natural that people would feel sympathy towards victims who have suffered at the hands of others. And it is easier to relate to those who are like us (same gender - same nationality and/or ethnic background). All this is to be expected.

HOWEVER - that does not make it factual, nor does it make it the basis to be used for RATIONAL decision-making.

Far better, IMO, when people are willing to be open-minded, apply critical thinking skills, and are inclined to intellectual honesty - not merely following the streams of gossip and innuendo.

FWIW

- Dan

[Jet]

Which is...?

I don't know if this is what Kievstar is referring to, but IMO the more Wayne writes, the more obvious it becomes (to me) that there were great big red flags appearing long before she moved into the other bedroom which he either didn't pay attention to, or chose to overlook. Wayne is in a difficult situation right now, but he had the power to stop it long before it got to this point, on any number of occasions.

[Jooky]

Russiangirl,

I strongly agree with you about paranoia. A paranoid and suspicious man marrying a woman he doesn't fully know or trust can cause his worst fears to come true.

But, how can you equate a 'broken heart' when people barely know each other with the misery of a divorce, a cheating spouse, losing half your assets, going to jail on false charges and basically having your life ruined?

* thousands of women "courted", bedded, then discarded,
* thousands of would-be-fiancees dumped at various stages of the process while the man with a "back up plan" cut a swath through many "prospects"

This is called 'dating'. Women also dump men and sort through many prospects, and they should! The goal is to find a life long compatible mate, not to settle with the first person that comes along for fear of 'breaking their heart'.

If a man goes for a 'back up' lady, the 'dumped' lady should be happy! Happy not to have ended up married to man that could so easily love another.

* many failed K1s who returned home to the ridicule and pity ... severed the ties with their old life only to be kicked out on the street like a no longer wanted pet)

Ridicule and pity? Kicked out on the street? I've spent too much time living in Russia to believe that a decent woman would be treated like this by her true friends and family.

* wives who had to withstand years of mental abuse from their paranoid husband, his friends, and in-laws silently or openly accusing them of being GCGs

A sad situation, but there are laws and systems in place to protect such women, and these women are made aware of this when they apply for a K-1, correct?

* wives who suffered idiotic husbands who threatened to "ship them back" as if she were a parcel, not a breathing living feeling human being,

* women who were unlucky enough to get involved with drecks of society unable to find a local woman to spit in his direction, or with a control freak whose own insignificance can only be soothed by sadistic emotional (sometimes physical) torture of those weaker

Don't you question why these women got involved with such 'drecks' in the first place? Luck has nothing to do with it. Women are not blind or stupid and they are not being forced to marry these 'drecks'. They are making a conscious compromise to obtain their goals and that is the crux of the problem.

* women who were really unlucky and got involved with con artists who swindled them
* women who are being used by opportunistic bankrupt husbands to help pay alimony to his ex, child support to his kids, and his ever increasing debts

A true con artist, man or woman, is despicable. I haven't heard of a single case where a wealthy Russian woman was conned by a poor American, though I can believe it's happened. The opposite situation, where a conniving woman uses an American man for a green card happens often.

If Green Card Girls are a 'few rotten apples', the 'con artist husband' is what? A bite of an apple?

Russiangirl, you seem to have a low opinion of many of the men involved in this pursuit. You mentioned a:

disproportionate number of excrements of society

Isn't it better that a Russian woman ends up with a bit of a broken heart from one of these men than end up marrying him?

When I hear stories like this one, I just see another example of why people need to focus on finding and getting to know a truly compatible mate before getting married, not just giving it a go with someone who they might be able to work things out with over time.

[groovlstk]

* women who were unlucky enough to get involved with drecks of society unable to find a local woman to spit in his direction, or with a control freak whose own insignificance can only be soothed by sadistic emotional (sometimes physical) torture of those weaker,

I agree 100% with Jooky's post. Why did these women marry men who were among the "drecks of society?" Couldn't they not see what they were getting, or were they so desperate for a new life that they threw themselves at the feet of the first second or third-rate foreigner who offered them a ticket to the promised land? Surely these poor, innocent women weren't in love with these "drecks of society" when they accepted his marriage proposal, were they?

I spewed a lot of bile at a good guy in this thread trying to make a case that it's a man's responsibility to get to know a woman, and if he does his job then he'll never have to worry about GCGs. This is a two-way street, though. While I feel sorry for any woman who marries a complete loser and languishes in a trailer somewhere, unless he put on an elaborate stage play, falsified his I-134, and lied through his teeth, at the end of the day her situation isn't the result of bad luck - it's ultimately the result of her own bad judgment.

This may sound a bit harsh to those who believe their women should be sweet, innocent little sheep who must not ask any questions and trust in her fiance/boyfriend without reservation. But hey, if you think that way you're probably the kind of control freak Russiangal is referencing in one of her bullet points, anyway. 

[groovlstk]

I don't know if this is what Kievstar is referring to, but IMO the more Wayne writes, the more obvious it becomes (to me) that there were great big red flags appearing long before she moved into the other bedroom which he either didn't pay attention to, or chose to overlook. Wayne is in a difficult situation right now, but he had the power to stop it long before it got to this point, on any number of occasions.

Ditto for me, particularly in reference to the nice but less attractive girl that Wayne referenced in an an earlier post, a girl whom he tossed aside. It may be the gazzilionth case of a man chasing beauty and rejecting someone who may truly care about him, but at the very least it gave Wayne the opportunity to compare the actions and affections of a beautiful woman who was indifferent to him vs. one that may have truly cared about him, all while he was still single.

This in no way justifies his predicament, but it should serve as a warning to you fellows who think you can turn an indifferent woman's heart by treating her well or giving her everything she desires. You can't buy respect and you can't make someone fall in love with you by loving them.

[William3rd]

While I feel sorry for any woman who marries a complete loser and languishes in a trailer somewhere, unless he put on an elaborate stage play (INCLUDING FALSIFYING PICTURES FROM HOME-WHICH EVERY SINGLE GUY SEEMS TO CARRY), falsified his I-134(INCLUDING TAX RETURNS AND EMPLOYMENT LETTERS), and lied through his teeth, at the end of the day her situation isn't the result of bad luck - it's ultimately the result of her own bad judgment.

or the results of her malevolent intentions to "upgrade" at the earliest opportunity after getting the magic ticket to stay here. OR even sooner, if she can put the support group together to file a false DV claim.

And there  you have her- the Green Card Girl!!!!!

[Misha]

The friends who got all excited about a special guy who was coming to visit from US or Germany or Sweden, and who ten years later were still hoping to find their one true love, meanwhile their former honeys keep coming to Russia and Ukraine and "sampling" more and more girls.

Why don't you estimate the number of RW searching for love abroad (used to be a country-wide phenomena, maybe lessened in recent years) vs. successful marriages. Think about the balance of power in such relationships.

True, dating is a messy blood sport. However, let's replace foreigner by local man. There are certainly millions of Russian women who slept with local men and they were convinced that he would marry them, yet he dumped them and continued "sampling" more and more women. Let's add the millions more women (maybe tens of millions of women by now) who married for love and ended up divorced because their husbands beat them or slept around.

Then there are the millions more women who stay in bad marriages in Russia because of the balance of power. Imbalances of power do occur in Russian-Russian marriages in Russia. You have cases, for example, where the apartment in which a couple live is in his parents' name and she would have to return to a distant village if she got divorced because she would have nowhere else to go. Consequently, she stays with him and tolerates him.

Simply put, life is not always fair. There are a number of things that a woman should do, however, to avoid problems. If she does not want to sleep with a man (i.e. she is not attracted to him and does not herself want sex), then she should not sleep with him. For some reason, women complain less about the hot dudes that they managed to seduce who did not marry them   If she has any doubts about a guy, she should also not rush into a relationship or a marriage. She should also be observing him carefully and listening to her "gut" (intuition). Women are also good at ignoring the obvious and deluding themselves. Finally, if she is worried about heartbreak, she should not date.