Do FSU women have stronger morals?

[Andrew James]

OK. Not your stock standard 'Starting Out' question, but something that interests me, and perhaps others? (OlgaH?) as well.

After doing a bit of reading on the topic of FSU women (not only posts here, but a number of novels and films as well) one theme that continues to crop up and grab my attention is the supposed moral superiority of Russian women compared to their allegedly more promiscuous western sisters (that is when Russian women are not being marketed as sexually aggressive supermodels, something I have passed off as a function of agency marketing).

Which makes me wonder: is this a myth perpetuated in fiction and cultural stereotypes of FSUW or might there be some substance to the idea (HOWEVER MUCH OF A GENERALIZATION THIS MIGHT BE - because you can always find loads of exceptions that nevertheless do not invalidate the rule) that FSU women have retained something more of that old fashioned feminine mystique and ladylike deportment - not to mention a more romantic, more spiritual approach to sex - in comparison to their American counterparts (who increasingly seem to view "Sex and the City" - i.e. one one-night-stand after the next  - as their cause celebre, much to the chagrin of more romantically minded guys like myself.)

[docetae]

short answer: Myth. 

[BC]

Different yes, stronger no.

[kievstar]

Andrew, I do not know a lot of AW who are much different than UW.  But I live in midwest area of the USA which is considered to have higher morals than the east or west part of the USA (could be myth). So to answer your question I think your a little off on AW having one night stand after another. 

[Argonaut]

I agree with the last two posters. Russian women dont seem morally stronger. If they were they wouldn't have to promote their sexually to find a better life.

[Andrew James]

Andrew, I do not know a lot of AW who are much different than UW.  But I live in midwest area of the USA which is considered to have higher morals than the east or west part of the USA (could be myth). So to answer your question I think your a little off on AW having one night stand after another. 

Not suggesting all - or indeed most  - AW (and I should have said 'western women' because that is actually what I meant) are like this, just that there seems, over the last few decades, to have been a cultural sea-change towards this (a global pattern which obscures regional variations.)

In my profession, for example, I counsel a number of female clients and in the last little while I have seen a paradigm shift; where once there was more of a dichotomy present in male-female roles (think of old sayings like "men use love to get sex, women use sex to get love"), over the last ten or so years there has been a definite convergence between men and women. Younger girls (18-25) in particular now feel the need to behave like men (not that I go for that either), is this fairly exhibitionist and instrumental manner, sexually speaking.

Many are more sexual promiscuous (50% have had three or more sexual partners in the past year according to a recent study published in the Journal of Social Psychology); certainly more so than when Kinsey recorded sexual behaviors in men and women in the 70s - and yet there seems to be some kind of dissonance associated with this; these young women feel pressured to behave in this way, rather than being comfortable with it.

I guess what I find appealing in representations of other cultures, be this real or illusory, is a stronger connection to traditional family values, which tends to encompass traditional sexual mores. After-all, what is it that many of us seek in these countries? (Excluding those men that are simply using their financial situation as leverage to land a woman they may be unable to find in their own country). Is it not  a different ethos from what we encounter in our own social milieu, a more traditional kind of femininity, something that has definitely been diminished in the recent wave of 'raunch culture', something that may have survived in greater concentrations in less overtly western cultures (think also Asian cultures.) Otherwise, for me anyway, what is the point pursuing all of this?

[Misha]

After doing a bit of reading on the topic of FSU women (not only posts here, but a number of novels and films as well) one theme that continues to crop up and grab my attention is the supposed moral superiority of Russian women compared to their allegedly more promiscuous western sisters

Just curious, what exactly were these novels and films? Are we talking the 19th century classics of Russian literature or the Soviet  period? I can't really speak of AW, but IMHO it would be incorrect to say that RW are somehow less promiscuous.

FSU women have retained something more of that old fashioned feminine mystique and ladylike deportment - not to mention a more romantic, more spiritual approach to sex

What exactly would be a more spiritual approach to sex?

American counterparts (who increasingly seem to view "Sex and the City" - i.e. one one-night-stand after the next  - as their cause celebre, much to the chagrin of more romantically minded guys like myself.)

Seems to me that North American women want romance as much as their FSU counterparts: that is the reason why chick flicks and romance novels are still selling

[Andrew James]

Just curious, what exactly were these novels and films? Are we talking the 19th century classics of Russian literature or the Soviet  period?

I am not just talking about say Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina", but more contemporary renderings of post-soviet culture such as:

"Metro Stop Dostoevski" by Ingris Bengis, profiling an American woman's journey into the crumbling Soviet Union and her doomed friendship with a Russian female friend. Paints a very strong portrait of two cultures and women at odds, ethically, morally and ideologically - and yet there is strong connection between them, as though they are ying and yang.

"Leaving Katya", by Paul Greenberg.
The most insightful novel I have read profiling the vicissitudes of WM-RW marriages. Here a naive American protagonist brings out a Russian bride, without any recognition or respect for her own ways; She is a passionate idealist, he's a rich-slacker. When he refuses her a child, she leaves disillusioned, remarking on the moral vacuousness of the world she once regarded as her promised land.

"The Red Passport" & "The Wild East"
Short stories profiling former soviet people's love-hate relationship with American culture through the 90s; on the one hand these women yearn for the glamorous lives they see in magazines, yet at the same time they express contempt for the trashy lifestyles and morals of these 'desperate housewives'.

"Matrioshki (TV)", "Lilya-4-Ever", "Import/Export", "Trade" (Films)"
Sex trafficking in the FSU. Marginally related to the issue of FSU morality, though the female characters present a certain strength, fortitude and  - paradoxically - a real dignity and integrity, despite being forced into prostitution.

I can't really speak of AW, but IMHO it would be incorrect to say that RW are somehow less promiscuous.

Different cultures produce different modes of behavior. Otherwise we would be forced to declare that 'everyone is the same' which would pretty much do away with sociology as a science and all forms of cultural diversity. I mean is it wrong to say Russians/Asians are more family oriented? That is a socio-cultural difference, speaking very generally. If we can agree to that, perhaps we could extend that notion to their relationships with men on sexual level as well - more intimate, more committed, more lasting?

What exactly would be a more spiritual approach to sex?

Incorporating one's emotions, imagination, dreams, and sensory experience in an intimate meeting of two people's hearts and minds, not just their bodies. Contrast this with you zipless-f*ck, no strings attached, no emotions involves-sex for fun approach.

Seems to me that North American women want romance as much as their FSU counterparts: that is the reason why chick flicks and romance novels are still selling

Maybe? (Note I am asking questions not making conclusions).

That said your chick flicks example doesn't strike me as conclusive evidence of this. Indeed films from this genre can be surprisingly manipulative and superficial, not really connected to romance and spirituality in a deeper sense.

I mean take "Sex and the City" as a prime example: it possesses definite pretensions to rom-com yet this all takes place within the larger context of conspicuous consumption and ego driven materialism. In this way romance has been commodified so that people are seeking lust/infatuation, and the thrill of seduction which masquerades as love.

[Gator]

Do FSU women have stronger values?

It varies. 

I met a fairly large number of RW.  It surprised me that almost all seemed to have a solid character given the historic corruption and deceit in many elements of Russian society.

The happily married men attest to the fact that one can find RW with solid family values. 

OTOH, the many men who encountered Green Card Girls and scammers proves that one can find a maneating shark camouflaged as a pretty, feminine girl.

One word of advice.  RW tend to be reserved IMO.  Thus, their true character is not readily apparent.  Given the noise of language and cultural differences as well as age disparity, a man needs to spend a lot of time with a RW to determine if her values are aligned with his.

[groovlstk]

After doing a bit of reading on the topic of FSU women (not only posts here, but a number of novels and films as well) one theme that continues to crop up and grab my attention is the supposed moral superiority of Russian women compared to their allegedly more promiscuous western sisters (that is when Russian women are not being marketed as sexually aggressive supermodels, something I have passed off as a function of agency marketing).

My experience when I was dating was directly opposite. If anything, I'd say Western women are prudish wallflowers in comparison. If anyone tells you otherwise, please peel back the layers to see if there is an agenda: Agencies will blow this smoke up your butt, and some men in this pursuit will tell you the same because they desperately wish to believe it themselves - some stones are better left unturned. By the same token, my experience is mine alone, so take is as you will.

Just have a look around at many recent threads wherein men gleefully discuss the rampant corruption in Russia and Ukraine, failed social and educational systems, epidemic alcoholism, untreated mental illnesses, superstitions, etc. The same guys who gleefully report this stuff have managed to convince themselves that their girlfriends managed to waltz through the previous decades without getting any cow manure on their pristine white gowns. In fact, some go so far as to believe such conditions have made their gfs even more pure. 

Go there, meet people, experience things for yourself.

[Misha]

I am not just talking about your Pushkin's and your Tolstoy's (Anna Karenina in particular), but very contemporary renderings of post soviet culture.

The texts that you cite are fictional (or not-so-fictional) accounts of expatriates and their experience and love affairs in Russia. They seem like interesting reads, but I would take them with a grain of salt. These are still likely to be the romanticized views of foreigners recounting their personal experience in Russia.

Matrioshki: TV series focusing on the sex trafficking industry in the FSU. Female characters in this 10 parter give an insight into the strength and fortitude and soulfulness of  Russian women; paradoxically, they are trafficked into prostitution, they retained a certain integrity in spite of this.

Well, perhaps that was the entire point of the producers. They wanted to tell a story of fortitude and soulfulness.

Incorporating one's emotions, one's imagination, one's dreams, one's sensual connection to the person they are with, in the moment.

A less spiritual approach? Well, that is your old zipless-f*ck, no strings attached, no emotions involves, with personal gratification the ultimate aim, emotions and physicality kept separate.

And, I presume that the Russian women looking for "sponsors" are doing it for spiritual reasons?

Chick flicks can be surprisingly manipulative and superficial, not really connected to romance and spirituality in a deeper sense. I mean take "Sex and the City" as a prime example: it possesses definite pretensions to rom-com yet this all takes place within a social environment of conspicuous consumption and me-generation materialism. In this way romance has been appropriated and commodified in a very cynical way.

And how is this different from popular Russian television drama?

[Misha]

If anything, I'd say Western women are prudish wallflowers in comparison.

I won't go into detail, but my experience confirms this as well.

[Jack]

...."Do FSU women have stronger morals?".....


Well Andrew, you know what will happen when one tries to say something about applying to all men, or all women, or all bears? 

But if were talking "in general", and since you are getting many opinions, my opinion is, Yes, FSU women do have stronger morals than American women.

I cannot say Russian women have more morals that Aussie women Andrew, I can only say that of the two nationalities of women I know the best, American women and Russian women, it's not even close. The average Russian woman has more and better morals than the average American woman.

[Andrew James]

Hi Jack, and thanks for your thoughts.

Generalizations are indeed a blunt tool, which is perhaps why I should have used the term 'trends' instead (i.e. when someone says 'Russian Women', 'American Women', this implies all or nothing judgements, which of course I want to avoid, because in truth people and cultures vary wildly).

Misha, Groovlstk, and Kievstar:

Interesting and valuable insights. Even if I didn't want my dreams of finding women more like me quashed, I am determined not to go into this carrying around false hope either. (Who here used that poem about the 'road of truth being overgrown with blades of grass that are actually small knives!? Whoever it was its a cracker of an analogy!)

And perhaps the truth lies in what you said Gator:

'SOME Russians are like this, where others are the complete opposite', which makes sense when you think of it. Just a case of how many that SOME constitutes because if Russians are all too like women I meet here, then why not just stay home instead?

Still, I do intend to travel there in Feb, come hell or high weather, or an Australian dollar that may well be less that 40c in the Greenback; I am booked in now so bring on the

PS Funny how often the Club Bat is used on this forum!!!

[vwrw]

I agree with the last two posters. Russian women dont seem morally stronger. If they were they wouldn't have to promote their sexually to find a better life.

Two days ago, while giving a lecture on professional ethic, my professor of accounting requested  class  (approximately 20 people of different age and from different backgrounds) to answer the following question….”Would you flirt with your boss just to get a bigger salary increase?”

Only one person in the class said “No” , others said “Yes”or “neutral”, “it depends on…..”

It seems that American students (at least in my class) also find it acceptable  to promote their sexually to find a better life, doesn’t it?

[Misha]

I will paraphrase another post that I read a long time ago: I did not marry a Russian woman, rather a woman who was Russian. The important thing is to know what you are looking for and to find a woman who fits those standards. I don't agree with Jack, but I do not want to debate that point at this time. What I want to highlight is that you are not seeking to marry all Russian women, just one. You want to make sure that one woman you marry is compatible with your values, and not worry about all the others in general.  

[elliott]

If anything, I'd say Western women are prudish wallflowers in comparison.

From the single experience I have emailing a girl from Belarus, RW possess plenty of prudence.

For instance, I wasn't convinced that she could read English well enough to understand my letters, so I asked for her phone number.  She declined to give it to me.  She said she wanted to be certain that my intentions were serious before giving me her number.  Wow.  I didn't see that one coming.

I'd say that's conservative and prudent.  Score one point for RW.   

[groovlstk]

This is why, when I read posts suggesting family values playing a greater part in Russian life, it instills a sense of hope that perhaps there is a place where guys like me are a little more suited.

You might want to break this off into two separate threads. In my experience, there's no doubt that Russian and Ukrainians, in general, have much closer families than Westerners. But what does that have to do with morality? The close family thing is something that's bandied about as positive, and I suppose for us it is. But I believe things evolved this way out of necessity. If someone loses their job in Russia and falls on hard times, their family and friends are the ones they count on, not the state. If a woman is beaten by her husband, she'll turn to her family for help, not the the militsya. 

Western women (and men) have more options in this regard, they don't have to rely on their families. It's certainly arguable that this has many positive aspects although I'd say it has also cause us all to become more selfish and too willing to outsource our responsibilities.

[Shadow]

From the single experience I have emailing a girl from Belarus, RW possess plenty of prudence.

For instance, I wasn't convinced that she could read English well enough to understand my letters, so I asked for her phone number.  She declined to give it to me.  She said she wanted to be certain that my intentions were serious before giving me her number.  Wow.  I didn't see that one coming.

I'd say that's conservative and prudent.  Score one point for RW.   

Actually score minus one. Most RW would not have a problem giving out their phone number if they are serious about the guy they are writing to.

[Andrew James]

You might want to break this off into two separate threads. In my experience, there's no doubt that Russian and Ukrainians, in general, have much closer families than Westerners. But what does that have to do with morality?

Well, I was referring to 'sexual' morality in particular, which perhaps should be rephrased as 'traditional sexual morals' to remove any value laden terms like 'stronger'. (Maybe that is what you mean, BC when you said 'different' but not 'stronger' because on the later score (moral fortitude) I think all human groups are pretty much equal there.

In terms of traditional sexual morality I tend to connect family values with this; with fidelity, monogamy, loyalty - those kinds of values - comes as a kind of cultural package. Call it a pre-feminist, patriachal, a 1950s conservative ethos - whatever - but I would have though there was certain consistency there.

And in this day and age when metrosexuals and sensitive new age guys are out of favor, and where the wheel is definitely swinging back to more conservative tropes of male social behavior - i.e. the gentleman is very much the thing nowadays - it would be nice to think that women who desire that can also reciprocate (i.e. by being a ladies).

Yet what I see is a lot of men feeling constricted in their roles, yet finding many women more free in theirs (even if they are burdened with a double load in the process), creating a double standard that causes a lot of frustration and resentment amongst blokes, myself included. (I am a trained in this business and yet still get irked by it all.)

vwrw: I think Argo was probably agreeing with you in a round about fashion, suggesting AW and RW are really not so different.

Misha: I like the idea of finding a woman in Russia as opposed to a Russian woman; it is a more personal, less objectifying way of looking at a relationship. That said, isn't the idea of traveling to another culture somehow bound up in the idea of seeking something your comfort zone, even if such factors only play a minor role in the end. I mean 'meeting a woman who just happens to be Russian' sounds to me like it could simply be a strategy for increasing potential candidates, kind of setting aside those archetypal qualities that inspires us, elements that can indeed enrich our love for a person as long as we don't let this obscure the person behind our romanticized envisionings.

Or maybe I am missing the jist of our post; maybe you are suggesting that if I look at overall patterns too much, I might miss the trees for the forest so to speak? Still, if there are more people that seem to fit your mould in a certain area, it seems good sense to head that way. (It is why I got out of the media and moved to psychology because I simply wasn't connecting with my kind of people in my former career.)

[Jack]

  I don't agree with Jack, but I do not want to debate that point at this time.   

Misha, I see nothing to debate or agree with. I simply expressed my opinion.  You certainly don't have to agree with my opinion but I see nothing to debate. I have spent a number of years with American women and Russian women and to me, in my opinion, which is not debatable, it's not even close. Russian women, on average, have far more morals and values than the average American woman.

[Misha]

Russian women, on average, have far more morals and values than the average American woman.

I can't speak of American women (never lived there, never dated an American woman), but I would say that Canadian women are as moral as Russian women, and I would even say a bit more so simply because they have not had to deal with the type of society that most Russian women deal with on a daily basis.

[Misha]

I mean 'meeting a woman who just happens to be Russian' sounds to me like it could simply be a strategy for increasing potential candidates, kind of setting aside those archetypal qualities that inspires us, elements that can indeed enrich our love for a person as long as we don't let this obscure the person behind our romanticized envisionings.

Well, from what I have read in these forums, you have many naive men blinded by "archetypal qualities" that they project onto Russian women. Because, they believe that ALL Russian women are traditional or whatever you wish, they believe that the women that they are dating MUST fit the stereotype. When I say that I married a woman who happened to be Russian, it is that I married her for her qualities, and her strengths, and her weaknesses that I took the time to discover, and not because of some mythical RW ideal. A lot of men could certainly have benefited from such a tact, and I will cite the thread discussing Wayne's situation as a case-in-point.

[Misha]

In my experience, there's no doubt that Russian and Ukrainians, in general, have much closer families than Westerners. But what does that have to do with morality? The close family thing is something that's bandied about as positive, and I suppose for us it is. But I believe things evolved this way out of necessity.

And, I would specify that even if they are close, if they are forced to share a common apartment, they don't necessarily like each other. My wife's sister did her best to drive my wife out of her mother's apartment. When my SIL divorced, she moved back to her mother's apartment with her child. This meant you had MIL, SIL, Wife, Niece sharing a two bedroom apartment. This led to vicious fights as my SIL wanted to drive away my wife to claim the apartment. My wife is still bitter to this day, and is one of the reasons that she did not have many problems leaving her family behind in Russia.

Here is another case. One of my wife's friend in StP was married and sharing an apartment with her husband and her brother. Her husband and brother were business associates. The husband started beating my wife's friend and according to my wife's friend, she was driven out by her husband while her brother did nothing. In this case, her brother's business interests were more important to him than his sister. Traditional family values eh  

[GoodOlBoy]

Hi, just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I lived in Siberia several years ago for a couple of month's. I met several women and my wife. I can tell you one thing that kind of shocked me. A lot of women, atleast in that area of Russia, party/sleep/holiday with their bosses/supervisors. I was absolutely shocked at the "matter of fact" attitude concerning this topic. My wife told me one time a phrase used concerning this behavior, but I can't remember the phrase now. But it had to do with "survival skills". I am not sure you can equate American or Western morals to Russian morals. The living situations are COMPLETELY different (ie: economic's, less men, little or no opportunities for advancement...etc.).