Do FSU women have stronger morals?

[Andrew James]

For the record, I would not say I seek a 'very' conservative woman. I used 'conservative vs liberal' (in terms of sexual morality) because these are common labels, though potentially misleading ones as they imply a mindset (e.g. right wing, left wing etc.) which isn't necessarily associated.

(Actually conservative ideology can be very restrictive in terms of woman not being free to express their sexuality. Funnily enough however, what passes for liberal these days is often similar, with women also being bound to certain sexual roles - all be it different ones. Conservatism and promiscuity are also connected (repression can lead to this) which exposes the limitations of such labels.

Perhaps a term like 'earthy spirituality' is closer to what I am probing - a vein I have detected in certain Eurasian cultures, where the body and the mind are not seen as so separate, and where sexuality, nudity etc has not been so fetishized. (I have had some experience of this in Sweden, where my mother's side hails from, on several occasions encountering something that is less apparent in my own culture.)

I am curious to see if there is an an element of this in contemporary Russian culture too, amidst the multitude of other influences.

Mind you, this is starting to look like a whole other thread now (or several, one tackling perceptions, one exploring cultural tendencies, one looking at people's personal experiences...)

[BC]

Andrew,

What age group are you most interested in?

[Andrew James]

Andrew,

What age group are you most interested in?

From the point of view of my own amateur research: 18-30 (given cultural change in Russia and the Ukraine is a pet interest of mine.)

From the point of view of meeting a like minded woman: mid 20s to mid 30s (i.e. ranging from 10 years younger than me to my age.)

[BC]

From the point of view of my own amateur research: 18-30 (given cultural change in Russia and the Ukraine is a pet interest of mine.)

From the point of view of meeting a like minded woman: mid 20s to mid 30s (i.e. ranging from 10 years younger than me to my age.)

In that case I don't think FSU will offer more potential for what you seek than your own city or state.

[ScottinCrimea]

Andrew,

What age group are you most interested in?

Good point, as in addition to the natural changes in moral attitudes that occur with age and experience, I also see a big difference between the various age groups in the FSU as their experiences and exposures to "wordly things" are drastically different.

Andrew, you posted while I was writing this.  18-30 is too broad of a range given the drastic changes there over that time.  Absolutely no comparison between an 18 year old and a 30 year old.  Even the mid 20's have had a much different experience than those in their mid 30's.  I think you need to look at the breakup of the FSU in 1991 as the defining line with those maturing in their morals before then different than those maturing after that point.  So a woman who was 16 years old in 1991 would be much different than a woman who was 5 years old at the time for example.  Of course this doesn't take into account individuals, but a general overview to consider.

[Andrew James]

Worth knowing. Makes sense too, using the breakup of the Soviet Union as a dividing line. Also explodes some of those Cinderella myths.

[elliott]

I on the other hand find this something of a turn off, preferring a 'less is more' approach (i.e. a dress which 'hints' at what lies beneath is so much sexier than a short skirt where nothing much is left to the imagination). Always been curious how many other blokes share this approach. 

+1

[Mishenka]

I don't think its fair to generalize about RW, or any women about age group morality. You can find women from different cities who are younger and more mature than women 10 years older, depending on how they were raised. Each woman has her own background, education and living conditions, with certain family values. In my travels I have found youger women in FSU contries to be more feminine, not as many feminist, but, this may not last long as the world turns, it changes fast.
Mishenka

[Andrew James]

I don't think its fair to generalize about RW, or any women about age group morality. You can find women from different cities who are younger and more mature than women 10 years older, depending on how they were raised. Each woman has her own background, education and living conditions, with certain family values. In my travels I have found youger women in FSU contries to be more feminine, not as many feminist, but, this may not last long as the world turns, it changes fast.
Mishenka

Much of my work as a social psychologist concerns perceptions regarding group behavior and tests exploring the validity of theorized differences between groups. In almost all such studies there tends to be significant variance between individuals within each group. This however, does not invalidate the notion that, when seen in collective terms (as a statistical unit), certain groups really do display distinct patterns of homogeneity and genuine differences when compared to others populations, such that we can make qualified generalizations in light of these findings. (One study I can think of compares sexual attitudes in Muslim, Christian and Jewish men living in Australia, with quite stark patterns emerging.)
 
Granted some (bigoted) people talk about groups in absolute terms, viewing society as a collection of binary opposites (black/white, male/female, etc.). Such people also tend to think that ALL members of a certain group behave in the same way. Still, one can go to the other extreme, seeing human behavior in purely individualistic terms and in doing so 'failing to see the forest for the trees'.

So in sum - whether it is fair or not - certain generalizations are defensible, as long as these remained qualified (i.e. described in terms of trends, patterns etc.).

'Do RW possess a different moral outlook from AW'? To answer such a question one  would need to  state their terms, assemble a randomized sample of women from all ages and regions in both countries, and then see if any significant differences emerged. In lieu of being able to do that, I wanted to get people's feedback on any perceived differences.

 

[BC]

BC:

Just a response to you earlier reply: "Different? yes. Stronger? no".

I am wondering if you might be able to elaborate on some of those differences?

Just an example..

Lets take similar aged women, AW and FSUW, ask them about the morality of posing nude for:

An artists portrait
A pinup calendar
A soft erotic magazine
A hard core video

Provide a scale of 1 (moral) to 10 (immoral)

My gut feeling is that most AW will diligently complete the survey with considerable thought, but many FSU women might well have difficulty because compensation was not listed.

This does NOT necessarily mean the thoughts of the FSU women are wrong or immoral, just that they may accept their beauty in a more honest fashion, maybe along the lines that beauty commands a price.  After all, we buy flowers not to obtain vegetable mass, but for their beauty.

You want a date?.. show up with flowers.
Join me at a cafe? .. pay for our tea.
Want me to cross a muddy street with you? ..carry me across.
Want an evening walk in the park together? ..give me your jacket to keep warm.

You want her beauty? -Show that you're willing to give something up for it.

[BC]

Mind you, this is starting to look like a whole other thread now (or several, one tackling perceptions, one exploring cultural tendencies, one looking at people's personal experiences...)

Nothing wrong with that, but to really, really understand have to break things down to fundamental elements.

Might sound a bit crazy, but at the bottom of the pile (all this RW are best stuff, looking for a feminine woman, yadda yadda), I find one huge cornerstone and that is 'fear'..  A factor I believe is the driving force behind much of this foreign wife stuff.

Among all the chest beating, lies (only one example) the fear of abandonment.  Doesn't picking up a dazzled beautiful RW at the airport, carrying all her worldly possessions in two suitcases and the stub of a one-way ticket pose appealing circumstances?  Maybe even a goal?

[Nat]

I think in the 21 century, when people in all at least somehow civilised countries watch the same movies, the same videoclips and read the same books, it's kind of strange to look for the difference in moral between nations Withing one nation people can have absolutely different morals - starting with "I met him one week ago, had sex with him and now I think I'm falling in love!" and to "no sex before marriage". That's my opinion

Just an example..
Lets take similar aged women, AW and FSUW, ask them about the morality of posing nude for:
An artists portrait
A pinup calendar
A soft erotic magazine
A hard core video
Provide a scale of 1 (moral) to 10 (immoral)
My gut feeling is that most AW will diligently complete the survey with considerable thought, but many FSU women might well have difficulty because compensation was not listed.

I suspect that may be I don't understand the message of your post because of the language gap, but, BC, are you trying to say that a money compensation can make these things more or less moral for a FSU woman? But what does money have to do with moral? A person can agree to an immoral deed (a deed which is immoral in her or his opinion) because of lack of money, but nevertheless she/he will still consider this deed to be immoral, won't she?

[BC]

I suspect that may be I don't understand the message of your post because of the language gap, but, BC, are you trying to say that a money compensation can make these things more or less moral for a FSU woman? But what does money have to do with moral? A person can agree to an immoral deed (a deed which is immoral in her or his opinion) because of lack of money, but nevertheless she/he will still consider this deed to be immoral, won't she?

Nat, I assure you the language gap is minimal.  I do tend to post in somewhat 'veiled' terms, in the hope that it makes folks think a bit harder - as you did here. - compliments.

Note that I do not mention money at all in my post.. just 'compensation'.

Lets say... maybe a more honest approach to 'what's in it for me?'

And btw, I would not consider any of the example survey questions I posted as 'immoral' activities.

[Nat]

Nat, I assure you the language gap is minimal.

Oh, I'm happy to hear that

Note that I do not mention money at all in my post.. just 'compensation'.
Lets say... maybe a more honest approach to 'what's in it for me?'

Compensation - something (such as money) given or received as payment or reparation (Google). Payment - is a key word defining "compensation" here, I think

And btw, I would not consider any of the example survey questions I posted as 'immoral' activities.

Well, it's your moral - it's your right But you've said "Provide a scale of 1 (moral) to 10 (immoral)", so you expect that women will probably consider some of them more or less immoral, right?

[Andrew James]

Nat. As stated in my post to Mishenka, I propose there is considerable academic merit and scientific support for the the idea that groups of individuals can be compared and contrasted  in terms of attitudes and behavior concerning ethics, morality, religious beliefs to name a few. 

Of course such observations are only identifications of how groups behave as when seen as a unit (a collective), not descriptions of how ALL such individuals behave within these groups. Thus one never makes absolute statements when referring to such patterns.

Yes, we might live in an increasingly homogenized world. I certainly agree with you there. Nonetheless, differences do exist between cultures as well, variations that can be identified in objective terms. (I am thankful for this too, being very supporting of multiculturalism.)

If there were not support for this approach there would be no subjects like sociology, cultural studies or social psychology in universities, no studies published in the many journals dedicated to this area of inquiry.

[BC]

Oh, I'm happy to hear that

Compensation - something (such as money) given or received as payment or reparation (Google). Payment - is a key word defining "compensation" here, I think

'Something' is the key word..  could be security, safety, promise of progeny, and many other intangibles.

Well, it's your moral - it's your right But you've said "Provide a scale of 1 (moral) to 10 (immoral)", so you expect that women will probably consider some of them more or less immoral, right?

I stated 'ask them'... not me 

[Nat]

Nat. If you have a look at my reply to Mishenka, you will see that I already discussed the reasons why there is academic merit and scientific support for the the idea that groups of individuals can be compared and contrasted  in terms of attitudes and behavior concerning ethics, morality, religious beliefs to name a few.  

Yep, I read it and I agree with you in some points - of course if to compare western and asian mentality, it'll be a huge number of differences. But speaking of the difference in western and FSU moral... In mentality - may be yes, there are some big differences - tax issues, politics and so on, but in moral? Yes, I can't say that there are none of them at all, but there are so few of them, and all the people are so different, that I don't think it's possible to establish the difference between morals of FSU and other women (btw, who are the others? who are we comparing them with? AW? European women? Which part of Europe? ). Of couse it's IMHO and I don't claim it to be the only right opinion

[Nat]

'Something' is the key word..  could be security, safety, promise of progeny, and many other intangibles.

BC, you've just made such a complicated question out of such an easy one!   I mean your list of actions and their morality. Just looking at this list right here, I'd never connect it to any "compensations". Of course after you said about possible compensations, I begin to think about possible situations, but if you hadn't said that, I wouldn't have thought about them either Am I an AW?  

[Andrew James]

Nat. Statistically speaking one could make comparisons, though I think I understand where you are coming from: you suspect that due to the demographic diversity of the FSUW, any differences would probably not form a strong enough pattern of distinction when measuring against women from the USA (that would be my comparison group, to answer your other question)?

Alternatively, referring back to a previous poster's example, there may be significant differences between say older FSUW and AW but not younger FSUW and AW, such that when we come up with a global figure for FSUW, it could end up being misleading. If that were the case however, you would simply state that in your findings: e.g. "While significant differences between women from the two regions were detected, much of this variance was accounted for by older FSU females, meaning results cannot be generalized across that particular population".

I wouldn't want to hazard my own guess as to what we might find; You and other RWD posters would be more qualified on that front. From what people are saying, however, it seems NO significant differences would emerge, revealing this to be yet another myth which clouds FSU-western relations.

[BC]

Am I an AW?  

Could be a cultural thing....

[ScottinCrimea]

Such studies are great as an academic exercise and to get a paper published, but in reality do they really have any practical application?  Should anyone modify their actions based on the study results?

Perhaps from a political, religious or commercial view where one is trying to appeal to the general thought processes of the largest demographic possible there may be some merit, but on the other hand by making decisions based on some "norm" one may end up alienating a larger group as few individuals actually match the norm.

I'm curious, Andrew.  As a sociologist, what do you see as the practical value of such studies?

[Andrew James]

Such studies are great as an academic exercise and to get a paper published, but in reality do they really have any practical application?  Should anyone modify their actions based on the study results?

Perhaps from a political, religious or commercial view where one is trying to appeal to the general thought processes of the largest demographic possible there may be some merit, but on the other hand by making decisions based on some "norm" one may end up alienating a larger group as few individuals actually match the norm.

I'm curious, Andrew.  As a sociologist, what do you see as the practical value of such studies?

Well, referring specifically to my profession (social psychology), the research ultimately informs the practice, helping to structure the ways we counsel groups, families, and individuals, meaning that such studies have real world utility (as opposed to say political philosophy which - in my experience anyway - too often gets bogged down in abstract, divisive and ultimately unproductive arguments much like you have described; its interesting theory but where is its application in helping to build a better world?)

In contrast, after completing my research exploring trauma and cultural displacement in Australian immigrants for example (which revealed significant differences when comparing the ways Chinese, Somalian and Iranian asylum seekers have assimilated into Australian life),  I was then able to use some of these findings to guide how I counseled such people manage symptoms associated with post-traumatic stress. (Of course my paper was only one piece of a complex jigsaw puzzle - but it helped provide a sense of direction in certain ways.) That to me is far more satisfying work, because it is connecting study to the world at large (unlike a lot of academic work, which seems to be about proving how supposedly smart and superior you are.)

As to the second part of your post: yes, such findings can act to promote prejudice in certain ways, though that is typically the media taking scientific findings out of context and bending results to fit their own agenda. (i.e. they are the one's that ultimately overgeneralize.)

Moreover,  many of these studies actually function to explode myths concerning group behavior, and so can be used to fight prejudice. Which is why I like to pose the question regarding perceptions as well - as per my OP - just to tease out what these perceptions are before putting them to the test (as I would like to someday.)

This might then, help persuade newbies (like me!) from traveling on the wrong path to the FSU, as they might have more confidence in the results from a study, as opposed to someone else's opinion which they can always dismiss as personal bias when they are keen to hold onto a dream.

[SANDRO43]

(as opposed to say political philosophy which IMO too often gets bogged down in abstract, divisive and ultimately unproductive arguments much like you have described; its interesting theory but where is its application in helping to build a better world?)

Perhaps in making people THINK and become AWARE ?

IIRC, any attempt at building a better world started with some "philosopher", political or otherwise, sayìng "Hey, this is all wrong, there must be a better way !", at least from Illuminism onwards.

Are you discounting the importance of abstract thought and priviligeing the approach "If it works, it must be good" ? I think history has proven that the latter is often short-sighted, and requires costly undoing and rectifying subsequently.

Think of Dichloro-Diphenyl-Trichloroethane (better known as DDT) as one out of a million possible examples .

[Andrew James]

Perhaps in making people THINK and become AWARE ?

IIRC, any attempt at building a better world started with some "philosopher", political or otherwise, sayìng "Hey, this is all wrong, there must be a better way !", at least from Illuminism onwards.

Are you discounting the importance of abstract thought and priviligeing the approach "If it works, it must be good" ? I think history has proven that the latter is often short-sighted, and requires costly undoing and rectifying subsequently.

Think of Dichloro-Diphenyl-Trichloroethane (better known as DDT) as one out of a million possible examples .

Agree. I probably should have qualified my last post by stating that, in my own personal experience, I found the political discussions I engaged in lacking direct application. But in truth, it has much value as a background to other things, and in many instances positivist approaches (like mine) aren't so helpful.

[Misha]

statistically speaking

Here is a research report on "Sexual Behavior in the Russian Federation" that was based on research conducted by the Carolina Population Center University of North Carolina based on research conducted from 1992 to 2003: http://www.cpc.unc.edu/projects/rlms/papers/sex_03.pdf.

Some of the key findings:

• The average age at coital debut has declined over the years, with 41-49-year-olds reporting
  first sex at age 19 yr, 31-40-year-olds at 18.8 yr, 21-30-year-olds at 17.4 yr, and 14-20-year-
  olds at 15.9 yr. The reported age at first sex has not changed since our last survey in 2001
• Among married participants, 16.7% reported having sex with a non-marital partner during
  their last sexual event, indicating a considerable amount of extramarital sex. Of those, 83.5% did not use a condom during the sexual event.
• Over one tenth of the participants reported having two or more sexual partners during the
  previous year. Of those, about two thirds did not use a condom the last time they had sex.

Their conclusions:

"A considerable proportion of the adolescent population is sexually active. Our data show that the age of coital debut in Russia has been declining over the past three decades, indicating that adolescents are engaged in sexual activity at a younger age. A significant proportion of the sexually active population does not use condoms. A sizeable proportion of the married participants report extramarital sexual activity combined with not using condom"

You can draw your own conclusions, but this report fits my observations: younger women started having sex a lot earlier, they do not consistently wear condoms, they have had multiple partners, and there is a lot of infidelity both by men and women.