Why does she need an escape plan if you're such a nice guy?

[groovlstk]

Guys, it's no secret that it's of paramount importance that you get to know a woman as well as you possibly can prior to proposing. That point is driven home time and again here by the OMBs, yet all our new guys seem to worry about are how to know if they're being scammed or how to know if their girl is sincere. There's an ocean and several landmasses between that part and the asking her to marry you part, yet time and again guys have an excuse as to why it doesn't apply to their situation.

Want to avoid Wayne's debacle? Want to avoid having your fiancee reach out to a green card-savvy RW for an escape plan before she even steps on the airplane to come join you? We often talk a lot about how important it is for guys to know their woman before proposing, but I think it's even more important that you do whatever needs to be done so that your girl knows you as well as humanly possible before you ask for her committment. It seems to me that too often guys are completely oblivious to this in even the most mundane ways. For instance, there's great value in such basic things as a good argument or two during your courtship. If you've never had a growler with your fiancee, how will she know how you will handle yourself when the inevitable argument happens - particularly when it happens when she's thousands of miles from family and friends? Will you deal with conflict by hitting her (a genuinely valid concern given the environment she grew up in)? Will you hide her passport? Will you forbid her from seeing her friends?

Now, you really can't be naive enough to think that your week or two of visits plus the occasional gifts and romantic emails are enough to put these fears to rest. Can you? (In the past I've seen some guys smugly announce that they've never had an argument with their fiancee - well duh, outside of emails and phone calls, you haven't spent more than a week or so with her, not even enough time to get on each other's nerves! You shouldn't be bragging about this, you should be worried about it.)

Your performance under stress, your temperment, and your day-to-day mood are all suspect - hell, everything outside of your happy-go-lucky vacation attitude will be a question mark until you've been living together for some time. She may not discuss this with you, but as her interview date approaches she is thinking about it. A lot.

On top of all this she has a million other fears - language, culture, financial - the list goes on and on. Does she have 100% faith in you to help her overcome these issues? Does she even know you well enough to answer that question?

Is it any wonder then, why newly engaged women turn to their own forums to meet experienced women who will help them should this stranger they agreed to marry or this new life they chose turn out not as advertised? Taking this a little further, is it any surprise that the women who hand out such advice come to see all men who marry with such foolish expectations as jackasses of a feather, and thus are just as happy helping those women who are truly in need as they are helping GCGs?

I'm certainly not justifying this behavior, it's disgusting, but guys in this situation didn't wake up one morning to find themselves cast in the middle of a bad soap opera - there's a pathology here, traceable right back to the relationship's origins. If you want to take shortcuts because (use this space to fill in the excuse that makes you and your fiancee special, at least until her green card arrives) please be aware that there are consequences.

Sorry for the length of this post, I'll get off my soapbox, now.

[Andrew]

Great post groovlstk.
In my opinion, one of the most valuable that could be written.
You hit the nail on the head mentioning arguements and day to day moods and stress of both parties. In my opinion these are some of the more important points that need to be experienced and addressed a good number of times before marriage. If you can't handle it in the "dating" phase, or, have not even experienced it, how can you possibly plan a future together and then not handle it when it happens after marriage?.... and it most certainly will. I have had many arguments/ disagreements with my Viki and I feel that the resolutions of these has only made the relationship stronger and also strengthened our trust in one another, but it also could have gone the other way.
I am sure that a lot of people here will disagree with me and want to rip my post to shreds, but I am happy that I experience, more of a reality (for lack of better words), before getting married and at least we both know more about what we're getting into.

Like I said, this is my opinion and it makes me feel more comfortable in this game of "irrational" doubts

[Misha]

The sad part is that it all boils down to this: people get into trouble because they marry a stranger, and this applies to both men and women. From what I read, the men on average spend a week on vacation and propose at some point after a passionate romp in the sack. They then, maybe, go back for a week or two of euphoria, and then they are shocked to discover that they are not compatible a few months later once the shine wears off. That and they often overlook obvious signs that something is up because they truly want to believe that much younger, much more attractive woman is into them (I have read a number of these in this forum, but I won't name names). Sometimes, I get the impression that many men would spend more time shopping for a new car than they do trying to truly understand if they found the right woman to marry and spend the rest of their lives with.

[Enot]

I don't think people are marrying someone they don't know and they don't intend to marry someone they don't know.  You can spend years getting to know someone and it turns out you don't know them at all.  Or their priorities and goals change.  That's why people divorce after 20-30 years of marriage.

Just because you know someone doesn't gaurentee a successful marriage.  There are many other more important things to consider.

[BC]

Anyone can make a mistake. I'm amazed though at how many make the same mistake twice or even more. Is that the famous 'numbers game'?

[Misha]

There are many other more important things to consider.

Such as? I would compare the marrying someone after a very brisk courtship the Russian roulette approach to matrimony. Sure, you may get luck and when the hammer strikes it may hit empty air, but it sure makes quite the mess when you fall upon the chamber with the bullet in it.

[Faux Pas]

groov

This is an excellent thread and should prompt some to think which I believe to be what you intended. You raise all good points and everyone in the early stages like myself should take heed. They should read them and be honest with themselves. Personally , I can't understand someone waking up and being in a Wayne debacle. But we all know they happen with more and more regularity.

Much or most of what you state in your OT can pertain to almost every single one of us who have decided this path. Thinking and following through with these points can likely save much heartache and frustration in the future. I'm not saying to start an argument for argument's sake but, we need to know what kind of person she is while angry and she needs to know the same about you.

We don't all have the luxury of spending months together for several years before proposing or marriage. For many of us that just isn't an option. This means we must be even more diligent in knowing our partner. Good thread, I am interested in seeing what fruit it bears.

[Chicagoguy]

A pre nuptial agreement could help. And remember, a K-1 visa is for 90 days. You can get married on day 89.

[groovlstk]

I don't think people are marrying someone they don't know and they don't intend to marry someone they don't know.  You can spend years getting to know someone and it turns out you don't know them at all.  Or their priorities and goals change.  That's why people divorce after 20-30 years of marriage.

Just because you know someone doesn't gaurentee a successful marriage.  There are many other more important things to consider.

Enot, I don't think there are any factors that can guarantee a successful marriage, particularly when you are talking about decades.

What I'm trying to point out is that by bypassing the basic rules of courtship guys make it almost necessary for any RW with an ounce of common sense to arrive with an escape plan in her back pocket. And if she can't or doesn't trust her man, how much effort will she put into saving her relationship before pulling her escape plan out?

Thirty years? Hell, I'm talking about getting through the first 3-6 months.

[Misha]

Here is an example. On another forum, there was one fellow promoting his how-to-book on how to successfully marry and stay married to a RW. One of the topics: where will she sleep when she arrives. The suggestion was that the man should be ready to provide her a separate bed as she may prefer this option. I found it a bid sad that A) some men needed such a how-to-guide and B) their fiancées were such strangers that they did not even know where she would want to sleep on her arrival to her new country.

[Enot]

There are many other more important things to consider.

Such as? I would compare the marrying someone after a very brisk courtship the Russian roulette approach to matrimony. Sure, you may get luck and when the hammer strikes it may hit empty air, but it sure makes quite the mess when you fall upon the chamber with the bullet in it.

If you don't know then you are headed for train wreck.  How about, "Do you love and respect each other"?  Don't you think that is more important?

[Enot]

Enot, I don't think there are any factors that can guarantee a successful marriage, particularly when you are talking about decades.

What I'm trying to point out is that by bypassing the basic rules of courtship guys make it almost necessary for any RW with an ounce of common sense to arrive with an escape plan in her back pocket. And if she can't or doesn't trust her man, how much effort will she put into saving her relationship before pulling her escape plan out?

Thirty years? Hell, I'm talking about getting through the first 3-6 months.

I agree with what you say but it is rather obvious.  I mean you don't hear people say, "I'm going to marry her because I don't know her."

[groovlstk]

We don't all have the luxury of spending months together for several years before proposing or marriage. For many of us that just isn't an option. This means we must be even more diligent in knowing our partner. Good thread, I am interested in seeing what fruit it bears.

FP, I understand completely, and I also think a good argument can be made that if you don't have the luxury of living with your GF for an extended period, there are other ways of getting to know her and, just as importantly, giving her the opportunity to know you.

I spent a total of four weeks face time with my wife before we were engaged. But during our courtship we spent hours together on the phone and in ICQ each and every day. I'd say approximately 6 hours per day, more on weekends. It was mutual - if I had a lunch meeting and couldn't phone her during our normal time she was really disappointed. Her desire to know me was as great as my desire to know her. I sometimes see guys who are engaged and exchange an email every few days and a phone call now and then with their fiancees, and I can't understand it. These women will be relying on their men for everything when they arrive here, why aren't they more curious in getting to know him? Why are they so indifferent?

[docetae]

About escape plan, we discussed it together, what we will do if life together does not work... We have signed prenup to protect our assets, talked about what will be the best plan for her apartment in Kiev, etc. We love romantic time but we know what is life and because we have both children, we can not afford to just jump out the plane without parachute.

[dispozo]

Good post Groovistk.....

We had our first real argument on my first visit. We both learned something about each other that night. The next day we were both still a little cold. I would say I was more cold. But in the end we talked about it out and worked it out.

What we learned...

We both got see our mood before,during and after. How we handle ourselves before,during and after. How something so little could escalate into something more.

I told her we will have arguments it is normal. As long as we listen and talk with each other about it we will be fine. We have had little disagreements now and then. But no real arguments, but when it does happen again. We are ready for it, I think.

[Gator]

Groovlstk,

I like your thread.  Having an "escape plan" means she already has one foot out the door before arriving.  It is far more important to find someone committed to working with you in good faith to make the relationship work.

I agree that an argument provides a good preview of compatibility, especially how the conflict is resolved.  You have a winner if both of you seek a win-win solution as opposed to:  manifesting "taker-giver" polarity or one of you withdrawing.  

While an argument is a good indicator, I find  problem  solving (wherein an argument may not occur) is even better.   It indicates how well the two of you work together - building a life together requires such all the time.

Some comments made by others:

Just because you know someone doesn't gaurentee a successful marriage.

An important aspect of getting to know someone is that you just may discover that the two of you are not compatible, thus avoiding a mess.

How about, "Do you love and respect each other"?  Don't you think that is more important?

Yes, two very important qualities, yet how enduring are they if they have never been tested?  Life is filled with many obstacles.  It is best to have a partner beside you who you know is committed to building a life together.

I would compare the marrying someone after a very brisk courtship the Russian roulette approach to matrimony.

I think there is some element of Russian roulette with all AM-RW marriages.  The key is to reduce the number of bullets in the chamber.  A short romance adds a bullet as do a large age disparity, lack of fluency in a common language, values and goals not aligned, etc.

Indeed there is much more to this than good sex, her laughing at your silly jokes, and  managing to get through a restaurant menu.

[SANDRO43]

I think there is some element of Russian roulette with all AM-RW marriages.  The key is to reduce the number of bullets in the chamber.  A short romance adds a bullet as do a large age disparity, lack of fluency in a common language, values and goals not aligned, etc.

I like you simile Phil, very descriptive. Your own ?

[Misha]

There are many other more important things to consider. How about, "Do you love and respect each other"?  Don't you think that is more important?

Well, the danger is the following: do you love a real person or do you love a fantasy projected onto a stranger? Also, how do you know if you respect each other without time to measure that respect?

[Gator]

I like you simile Phil, very descriptive. Your own ?

My chamber is loaded with more than one bullet. 

[Jumper]

Groov -

good post.

i do think it's as important to be the right person , as to find the right person.

and you touched on the often overlooked fact that the RW needs to be able to KNOW you are the right person (for her)
 and be committed to  you..

the weight of relocation (permanent if things go right) and a whole new life without her current family and friends
makes her correct evaluation of you , in a relatively short time frame ,
likely more critical than yours of her.(which is always the one concentrated on here)

The RW need time for thier due diligence also eh? lol


I did try to do my part to be sure my wife knew me, and my life,
 good bad and ugly ,,before asking for her commitment.
and was understanding that despite our relationship, she wouldn't be doing cartwheels at the thought of relocating around the world, and would have some real ,and very natural, concerns.
 
 Ultimately though, two people make the decision.
its equally in the RWs hands to say yeah or nay,, if she hasn't had the time to truly determine things fully?

[UTRO]

The sad part is that it all boils down to this: people get into trouble because they marry a stranger, and this applies to both men and women. From what I read, the men on average spend a week on vacation and propose at some point after a passionate romp in the sack. They then, maybe, go back for a week or two of euphoria, and then they are shocked to discover that they are not compatible a few months later once the shine wears off. That and they often overlook obvious signs that something is up because they truly want to believe that much younger, much more attractive woman is into them (I have read a number of these in this forum, but I won't name names). Sometimes, I get the impression that many men would spend more time shopping for a new car than they do trying to truly understand if they found the right woman to marry and spend the rest of their lives with.

You know Mish, I can't but agree with you more. I'm sure that somewhere in the back of all Member's brains we've questioned our sanity for meeting a woman in this manner and maintaining a relationship. Svet and I have written, text, emailed and phoned one another for over a year now. We have visited one another 5 times within the last year for a total of around 50 days.... With every visit we learn something new about each other and ourselves. With every visit we have at least one argument and disagreement, okay maybe a dozen Each visit reaffirms our love for one another..... In a WM-RW relationship a decision naturally has to be made sooner rather than later regarding marriage. Why? A. No woman 7700km away is going to waste years out of her life on nothing more than fleeting promises of a future from a man they seldom see. Even if she does love that man. Women want to see action, not words. B. These long distance relationships aren't cheap! After visa's, flights, trains, taxis, hotels, gifts, flowers, phone calls, groceries, restaurants, etc... the cost can be very prohibitive!! C. I love her and I want her here now!!!
So, is the love true and the relationship strong and meaningful enough to step into marriage? If it is, do it. Last month Svet and I became Engaged. As you know from living in Canada Mish, the length of time between proposal-marriage-to having your bride arrive in Canada, can take a year or more(!) That's if you follow the proper steps, eh I don't expect to see Svet with me until the winter of 2010, the earliest! So with that, we'll have visited each other a few more times and have known each other for over 2 years.
All this being said..... does Society view what each man on this site, is here for, as being normal? Probably not. Would I consider marrying a Canadian woman who I've only met 5 times and lives 5000km away? Probably not! The difference is we all (should) know the risks and considerations involved in this venture. We should know and accept that when we find the right woman, the time between meeting-proposal-marriage is going to be a lot quicker than 'conventional' relationships.
On that note, my Ex became engaged with a local guy after only knowing him for two months!! What's with people!?! lol!!

[Caddydaddy]

thanks Groov for the good post, very important question for sure!

I am in a very early stage and will see ?my? first RWs in a bit more than a week in person. To avoid that an escape plan of any Lady is needed at all, I guess I will do like that:

gas tank fueled up, oil changed, tune up done, fluids checked, trim and chrome shining, 47 year old V8 purring like a kitten, like that I will arrive in Siberia.

- when I am there and meet them women, I put gear into Neutral and let the engine idle.
- if I can observe a certain click or can notice any signs of affection, I will put gear into Drive and gently tap the accelerator.
- if there is no chemistry at all, I put gear into Reverse, hit the accelerator and let the wheels spin.

What I don't understand is all that Hottie and Stunner, GoldenToilets and Thick Wallet stuff, maybe some WM and also some RW have completely wrong expectations and this leads to fatal actions. If a long term partnership will work out are other criteria decisive. As for my part, I am looking for my soulmate and true love, no less! And if it will work out, no escape plans needed.

Regards,
CaddyDaddy

[BC]

A pre nuptial agreement could help. And remember, a K-1 visa is for 90 days. You can get married on day 89.

I cringe when I hear such.. wrong tools for getting square pegs into round holes.

[Shadow]

Women will arrive in a new country full of insecurities no matter what. They know the horror stories, no matter if we have informed them or not. Then it depends on the guy what is the effect and how she will want to adapt to the new environment.

As for escape plan, a pre-nup sounds like a nescape plan for the guy, not for the woman.
While being in the situation that we did not need a formal marriage to live together, I provided Mrs Shadow with an escape plan. First of all she had arranged at her job that if she would come back quick, they would take her back. A luxury that is seldom, and that not many RW have probably. The next thing is that I provided her with a return ticket that could be changed at any time. If there would have been a situation where she really wanted, she could have gone to the airport and taken the first flight home without having to ask anything from me. And of course I ensured her that I will provide for her as being my responsibility, even if things go wrong.

No matter how long you have spent time together in the FSU, no matter how much time you invested in communication, the moment you are living together is when the real test starts. It can go right and it can go wrong, and nobody wants to make the wrong choice.
In the end it is a matter of mixing your intuition, feelings, mind and common sense.

You need just one bullet in the chamber to get killed, you can survive with just one chamber free of bullets. If you are afraid of getting killed, do not play the game at all, because in most cases you take the gun without knowing the odds.

[Misha]

We should know and accept that when we find the right woman, the time between meeting-proposal-marriage is going to be a lot quicker than 'conventional' relationships.

There is quick, and then there is meeting for a few days and starting to fill out the K1 paperwork before the week is over quick In many ways I am quite happy that it is difficult for a Canadian to successfully sponsor a spouse and her gain permanent residency.

If at least the men and women were more critical in the process. How many posts have I read here where the men shrugged off behavior and comments from their fiancées that should have sent them running  to the hills? How many women have unrealistic expectations that their fiancé clearly won't be able to satisfy, yet they push ahead? How many men are blinded by the idea that all Russian women are "traditional" and couldn't possibly be out for their own best interests? How many men clearly lose it because they have the attention of a much younger and very attractive woman, perhaps for the first time in their lives?

It is not only the speed at which they decide things, but all these other actions that exacerbate the problems for both men and women. I like Gator's metaphor. How many men in such forums (and those many others who don't even bother reading forums) not only play Russian roulette, but also insist on putting more bullets in the gun?