Need advice on winning my girl back.

[Diplomacy]

Good God!  Someone take your passport and keep you from hurting yourself.  

groovlstk, I am merely looking at things from a different angle, that's all! 
Phew, you are joking

Never,ever, repeat this again
As for the whole falling in love thing well it's VERY simple for me to define love. 1) To become intimate with someone and 2) to say you love them!  If both parties are involved with these 2 points then YES, I would say that that indeed is falling in love on at least some level especially since point 1 happens over a period of more than 3 occasions     

No worry, we have not been able to do anything right.  I do not see that changing
Regarding Rat's overall situation, it just seems these days that a man can't do right for doing right!!  I mean if he knows what he wants and he does everything in his power to achieve it then he is accused of being desperate which in turn is weak.  I am sorry, but based on the account I have read, Rat hasn't done too much wrong.  Let me put this way: You're a romantic at heart and you're traditional minded and wish to meet the woman of your dreams.  But... you just never seem to meet her in your everyday life for one reason or another  

Out of your league criteria?
Then 1 day out of the blue, you come across this type of woman and she matches you're criteria.




  How amazing is this!  But shock horror, you only have a few days left before you MUST return to your native country.  I think a true man who knew what he wanted would attempt to seize that opportunity and from the story I have read, Rat did just that!  I can't be 100% certain, but I assume Rat explained that he had to go back to USA from the first meeting? (Can you confirm this Rat).  Now, with that in mind they meet a 2nd time (on Rat's last day) and Rat presumably says something along the lines of "I really enjoy your company and I would like to spend more time with you and get to know you better". 

Free vacation, or another boring week in the flat?
Now at anytime the lady could of said "you know what, you are a really nice guy, BUT it is not fair on you to spend your money on me since I am not interested in foreign man / having long distance relationship etc etc.   HOWEVER..... she accepted to spend 2 days in Kiev so this implies that there was some interest on some level at least.  OK, OK.... maybe the lady spent time as a friend.  I guess that is always a possibility.... BUT.... WAIT..... I assume that after the 2 day trip in Kiev that Rat explains how he has never met anyone like her before and can't believe how well things are going and would like to spend more time in getting to know her.  To which she then accepts a 6 day trip to St Petersburg   (or was it 4 days??).  Anyway the point is that the lady should NOT in my humble opinion accept the 2 day invitation to Kiev and CERTAINLY NOT the 4-6 day trip to St Petersburg unless she is SERIOUS about getting to know Rat better  OK.. OK.. so maybe she just decided during the St. Petersburg Trip that Rat was not the man for her?  I don't know, maybe... but still it seems to me that the lady once again escapes as the completely innocent victim while Rat is oestrosised for being a man and attempting everything humanly possible in what little time he had left of his trip.  The whole romantic notion which was prevalent from the moment he met the lady has suddenly been turned into acts of "insincerity" or attempts to "buy her".  OK, well if this is so then 1) Why did the lady say yes to spending 2 days in Kiev and then 2) yes to spending 4-6 days in St Petersburg? I'm sorry, but I think the lady must at least be culpable for 50% of the blame.  After all, there are 2 people in this case.  I just think the lady could of said NO at least a few times long before it got as far as it did!  Am I also right in understanding that this lady sends an e-mail to Rat of her own volition several weeks later which implies at least SOME interest.  My hunch is that the lady has given up all too easily, but if she was perhaps brave enough to follow the same instincts she initially followed (by going on the 2 trips with Rat) then just maybe she would get a positive end result.  Have I got this completely wrong, I wonder? Of course there is always the chance that the lady had a Ukraine boyfriend all along and decided to have some fun in which case she is still MUCH more wrong than Rat is!!  If I am wrong or I am missing something here then please tell me.  As for being eaten alive by FSU women, well the only thing I would say there is at least
I am pretty sure you can do that in England if you pay there too
I am getting close enough in order to be eaten alive, rather than back in my  native country where I don't even get that far   What's that saying: the critics may watch the performer while the performer will actually be tasting the dust on the floor.  Something like that anyway

I am sure they did to get your cash.  Immature and you are getting nothing.  Just save the cash and rent to own
P.S. there's a few women in the FSU who can eat me anyday 

[dazzler]

OK Diplomacy the ladies are ALWAYS right and it's ALWAYS the man's fault!  Of course... silly me   I mean how mean is it for a man to even attempt to be romantic and as for men who seeks any woman who is attractive let alone even attempts to chat to her and try to woo her with a few inexpensive gifts well.... these guys make me sick!!  Yes, I know Rat probably spent too much too soon, but I already acknowledged this before!  Plus he was only trying everything that he could within the constraints of the time he had.  Who says anything about spending lots of money on women??  I never did this before ever!!  Only small inexpensive gifts at first   Of course it costs money to visit the ladies country, but that's par for the course.  Back to this attractive/league table thing.  You know I once read a quote in a book which simply stated "Don't apologize for who you are attracted to".  As for bloody leagues: well that is a massive issue!  If for example, we use the analogy of a football team playing in any given league in any given country, Team A can be over achieving and be near the top of the Premiership while Team B can be underachievng and even be relegated so I don't see what you're arguement is re: leagues!!!  Also, how do you know what type of ladies me and Rat are attracted to?  I guarantee we are not as shallow as you seem to think.  The most attractive ladies in the world can fall from grace just as the least attractive men can prosper in time.  I use the word attractive to encompass MORE than just physical appearance.  Lets be honest 'league tables' in the dating world are far more unpredictable than anyone can explain or imagine.  For example I use to know girls from my school days 20 or so years ago who at the time I would of said were WAY out my league!  However, recently I saw a couple of them on separate occasions and for the 1st time they spoke to me with great interest and it was clear that both of them were interested in me.  However, the truth is I was not interested in dating them.  I am such a bad man for not going out with them and using them!!!  I also had the exact same experience with an ex girlfriend from 10 years ago who cheated on me back then (with numerous partners) but NOW wants to go out with me again.  I'm just not interested in her anymore.  I am using these examples to illustrate how false league tables are, for remember.... League Tables change all the time!

[Jooky]

First of all, in your example you mention three 18-27 year olds - all of whom, by virtue of their age, are considered extremely marriageable by all men, foreign and domestic.

Strange comment. If all 18-27 year old girls were so 'marriageable' there'd be no young ladies on bridal sites at all.

I can assure you that there are plenty of 18-27 year old girls in Russia that get no attention from marriage minded men. There are many factors to consider: looks, personality, children, previous marriages and so on. There are also plenty of young, pretty and nice women who don't get the right attention from the kind of man they are looking for. Local guys aren't knocking at their doors to marry them. That's why we go to Russia, right? 

I agree about walks in the forest though. A nice walk in the park or a forest beats trying to win a girl with a handful of roses any day.

[Lily]

Strange comment. If all 18-27 year old girls were so 'marriageable' there'd be no young ladies on bridal sites at all.
 

This is exactly one of the reasons why they actually are on the bridal sites. If you intend to go on a market, wouldn't you pick up the market where you have the most chances? Those young girls either know, or at least suspect that they may have good chances. That's why they try to market themselves at their prime.

[Vaughn]

Jooky, It's just my opinion that the majority of young'uns on bridal/dating sites are not so much
marriage minded as adventure seeking. The dating scene in Russia is a healthy and vibrant one.

.... does that mean that for the guys who target the 20-28 year old young lady, our only chance is to actually live permanently in her respective country?  In other words we would have no chance of the relationship ever developing past casual relationship status if we are apart for a few months at a time.  Your advise would be most welcome

NO chance? Hardly. I DO think that in many respects, finding and "landing" a quality woman aged 18-27 in the
FSU is a more formidable challenge, than say, ladies over 30. She's younger and in great demand - and believe
me, the demand is there as I said earlier. You're going to have to reckon with the likelihood that your search
will involve extreme patience and discernment. There are thousands of pretty faces - but which of them at
her tender age has the maturity, character - and desire - to commit to one man for keeps? We cannot expect
our own actions that scream "Love Me, WANT Me" to sway them - they see this display quite often as,
as I mentioned, many men practice co-dependency in their quest for romance. A good number of them will
never grow out of their habit - which they swear has GOT to work one day - and it rarely does.

In your heart of hearts you might be dying for her affection - don't allow her to see through that. Be casual,
relaxed, show her who you are "at ease"....that's who she wants to assess, not the guy who can spend the
most cash in a micro-week. Timing is also very relevant - and something over which you and I have NO
control - and so be it. Many of these younger ladies just aren't ready to settle down - I offer my 20 year old
stepdaughter as living proof of that claim. Guys that call her and date her, and eventually realize that love's
not developing (at least not hers) - they wonder what's wrong, how could they have played their cards
differently, what would have impressed her more? The answer is simple. She's not ready. One day a lucky
fellow will win her heart - and I will swear now that he will also have had the sheer luck of good timing.

Try substituting picnics to replace discos. Not perpetually of course, gals love to dance. But you might
just learn more about a lady by roasting shashlik together than you ever could on a dancefloor - and the
side benefit is this: you won't have a hundred other guys vying for her attention. OK, the picnic was a bust,
time to move on. Or the picnic went very well, let's do something the day after tomorrow. You HAVE to get
past the feeling that you've got to be with them constantly to win them. You'll never be sure of their
genuine interest in you if she cannot deal with the test of time apart. If she fails that, then you probably
just saved yourself a ton of future heartache. Unless you opt to hang onto false hope like Rattle.

If a strategy fails repeatedly, it's time to rethink our ways. I call it "rotating the tires"....you
probably should spend your next visit dating many. There's nothing wrong with that at all, and it
might dispel the feeling that each and every encounter is a do-or-die situation.

Vaughn

Attached are Fatima and our Lenara, both 20ish, both dating, and both very happy being single...

 

[Misha]

OK Vaugh point taken and point understood, but with this in mind does that mean that for the guys who target the 20-28 year old young lady, our only chance is to actually live permanently in her respective country?  In other words we would have no chance of the relationship ever developing past casual relationship status if we are apart for a few months at a time.  Your advise would be most welcome

Walks in the forest is a good idea YES!

One thing to keep in mind: there is a huge difference in mentality and maturity between a 20 year old woman and a 28 year old woman IMHO. 

Is it possible to find a woman in that age range and not spend extravagantly? Yes. My wife was 26 when I met her and she is everything I could have wanted in a wife. Our dating was quite simple: walks, talking, more talking, tea....

However, I had the advantage of being in Russia for work a few months and I knew Russian. Did not have to rely on agencies, simply dating sites and meeting women through friends and the usual means.

[I/O]

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Rattlehead: Read your opening post, didn't read the reasoning and counter reasoning which will no doubt have come since. Advice? Stay away from Eastern women if you want a quiet ride through. Forgive yourself for getting so emotionally involved so early. Archive her memory (It was short anyway). Toss your line back in the water, there is plenty more fish ready to bite.

The fat lady has sung, the curtain is down, the opera is finished, the only thing left is some fading music in your ears. Best to move on.

I/O

[Diplomacy]

I think if you take a long hard look at the comment you made about the girls back home not letting you close enough to use you.  Right there, that is the issue.  I am not trying to cut you down at the knees.

I am trying to get you to rethink the whole strategy.  It is not working, and it will be very rare IMO to work with most women.  They want a strong man that makes them feel secure.  You are not displaying that IMO.

You are screaming I need attention.  Not many women would go for that, you would need to step it down to women that just want attention.  That are not getting much or any attention and are starved for it.

I know what you are trying to say and I wish it did work.  Read what Vaughn says it is where I believe you need to be to.  It is not playing, you need to adapt. 

I think you really would be served well doing things like what Vaughn said.  Does that type of day not appeal to you?  What does then? 

You are cannon fodder at this point, we are trying to help you.

[dazzler]

Vaughn I have to say your advice makes a lot of sense!  There's not a lot I can disagree with.  Fantastic site this

Going back to the ever changing status of league tables I wonder whether this could finally be Liverpool's year after 18 long years (despite todays 0-0 frustrating draw with Fulham)?  Come on the Mighty Reds

[dazzler]

That's a nice photo of Fatima and Lenara.  Yes, they are both extremely attractive young ladies.  They are only 20 years old and there is no need for them to rush into a serious relationship just yet.  My younger sister decided she was ready to settle down when she was about 23/24 and the man who happened to enter her life came at just the right time.  Had he met my sister a year or so earlier I don't think it would of worked so I think your comments re: timing are very relevant!

[yozhig]

Ratt,
I would advice forget about that, and try to find a girl that will love you in any country.

[Nati]

Rattlehead, I would advise do not give up.
She wrote email to you, it seems to me she interesting to continue relationship to you. I can't advice if plan with roses is good - it depend how romantic she is. I would advice send email to her say how you feel about her. Say that you will be in Ukraine in January and ask to see her to give you second chance.
Good luck.

[kievstar]

He has not been active since November 20th.  So any further advise would most likely be to late for him. 

[aerotranslate]

This is just my humble opinion, but anyways you’ve asked for it..
I believe you should NOT make your letter less romantic or change it in any ways. If you wrote it spontaneously, expressing all your feelings for her, just give it to her as it is. Be yourself, otherwise she’ll just not recognize you next time when you ARE yourself.
I don’t know her, but I believe that sincerity and real emotions work, at least they do work personally for me. I’m a Russian girl and I’ve been in a relationship with an American guy for more than a year now. But it wasn’t like at all. At the very beginning I didn’t want to see or talk to him either. It wasn’t because he said or did something wrong. It was just some circumstances – he was too old for me and I had a bf. But his openness made me open myself to him. What always amazed me about him was that he never tried to hide his feelings or tried to play cool as most guys usually do. That made me change my mind finally.
You probably hurt her a lot by saying she used you for a couple of gifts and a free trip – Russian and Ukrainian girls are too proud to forgive that. But it’s a GREAT sign that she wrote to you! And it’s even good that she was mad at you for saying that. They say anything is better than indifference. So she may be mad, but it’s much better than indifferent. And since she has already written to you, you just have to act now! Otherwise she’ll think you’ve lost your interest.
I believe you have to be persistent. East European girls like when men act like men, when they act according to the principle: I came, I saw, I conquered. I see in your writing that you’ve already decided that you won’t give up on her. That’s quite encouraging.
And that idea about her going to a salon and receiving your flowers is very beautiful! The only problem I see about it is that she might not believe the people from the salon when they call her. Well, I wouldn’t believe I won some kind of free services that way– I’d rather think they are trying to trick me for money.
You know maybe you could do it some other way. Your friend could call her and tell her he dialed a random number just to have a date with some girl. Then he could make an appointment with her in some café, but when she comes, there will be just your flowers, a romantic dinner for her and your letter which will start with: “Sorry I can’t share it with you, but I hope I will very soon…” and everything else you have to tell her… 

[William3rd]

Been gone a month now. . . . .  letting all of these posters hear their HEADs RATTLE. . . .
HEADS RATTLE/ ???? RATTLE HEAD.

Hmmmm

[viking]

Bill. Dont bother. I know the guy. Gets something in his head and thats it.

[Vaughn]

[SilverBUllet]

Rattlehead, You are burning daylight time. Right now you need to be on a flight back to Kyiv. This is a matter you can only solve in person. Don't pay too close attention to or try to analyze words in her messages, English is just not her native language. Good luck, what's more important than to be in Kyiv right now? She was perhaps disappointed that you didn't make any promises while together. Ukrainian women like to see action and committments. SB

P.S. My Miss is in Kyiv too.

[Simoni]

Rattlehead has likely not read the last few pages since he has not logged in more than six weeks.

So my advice will not be to him, but to newbies reading this.

1)  Beware of infatuation.  It is silly, and it makes you weak.  Women are not interested in weak men.

2)  Date the girl in her hometown before you take her on a "romantic" vacation.   And until that happens, don't misinterpret dating and exclusive relationships.

3)  Date girls who speak fair to good English.  Otherwise, you are ripe for misunderstandings.

4)  Listen to the advice given here when there appears to be a majority consensus.   Don't be like Rattlehead and argue with experience.

This is just another example of a lovesick guy.  Newbies--beware!  It can happen easily when you meet a pretty face, sexy clothes, and a sexy accent to boot!   Keep yourself in control and move more slowly.   Otherwise, you may be our next RattleHead.

[ECOCKS]

Good advice Simoni.

[SilverBUllet]

Simoni, A lot of good advice. Thanks!!!  Still, the majority of the ladies don't speak English but they should not be ruled out for that reason alone. The majority of the non-english speakers need to get a chance too and they can always start learning English if they get the fianical support to be able to take classes. Most can not afford that on their own or have not the time. The ladies who already speak English might often be the ones who have been more fortunate and or have parents who have been able to pay for them learning English. The most important in my opinion in relationships is to listen to your heart, that is international language. Also to be strong and take action when warranted when you meet the right person. Then one can always learn both English and Russian later on and take it from there. SB

[Misha]

The most important in my opinion in relationships is to listen to your heart, that is international language.

I am sorry, this may sound good on a St. Valentine's Day card, but does not work well in real life. The fact is that a relationship requires a lot of conversation, lots of talking, and even more dialogue when you hit a bumpy stretch. Try doing that using the international language of the "heart." It won't take you very far.

Also to be strong and take action when warranted when you meet the right person. Then one can always learn both English and Russian later on and take it from there. SB

It depends what you mean by taking action. If you mean getting married to someone with whom you cannot even have a conversation, that would be a potentially disastrous move. Yes some marriages have succeeded with the woman not knowing English (there are always exceptions), but it is not something I would recommend.

[GoodOlBoy]

2)  Date the girl in her hometown before you take her on a "romantic" vacation.   And until that happens, don't misinterpret dating and exclusive relationships.

Sorry, but I COMPLETELY disagree with this one.

Sometimes it is not about what YOU want. The woman should have SOME say in the terms of dating.

Maybe she doesn't want everybody at her work and in her hometown to know she is looking for a "foreign man". There is a stigma attached to this you know?

If the RW wants, it is better to meet in a neutral setting (example: Moscow, STP....etc.) to check out compatability with each other BEFORE you "invade" her hometown (unless she invites you).  


GOB

[Simoni]

2)  Date the girl in her hometown before you take her on a "romantic" vacation.   And until that happens, don't misinterpret dating and exclusive relationships.

Sorry, but I COMPLETELY disagree with this one.

Sometimes it is not about what YOU want. The woman should have SOME say in the terms of dating.

Maybe she doesn't want everybody at her work and in her hometown to know she is looking for a "foreign man". There is a stigma attached to this you know?

If the RW wants, it is better to meet in a neutral setting (example: Moscow, STP....etc.) before you "invade" her hometown (unless she invites you).  

GOB

That is REALLY bad advice to give newbies, GOB.  If a girl is not wanting her family and friends to know you exist and meet you, that is a BIG red flag.   Don't waste time with that kind of girl.

Do NOT take a girl you have not met on a romantic getaway, or even to a neutral spot like Kiev or St. Petersburg.  Save that for after you know her.

This is serious business, and newbies should tread carefully. Just last night I talked to a guy who followed advice like yours, always meeting the girl in a getaway spot.  Turns out she was a scammer, and he wasted a year of his life.   Not to mention ten grand.

A good girl will want her family and friends to meet you, and to get their feedback on you. It does work both ways.

No question about it.  Meet the girl in her home environment before taking her on a vacation.

[Misha]

Maybe she doesn't want everybody at her work and in her hometown to know she is looking for a "foreign man". There is a stigma attached to this you know?

If the RW wants, it is better to meet in a neutral setting (example: Moscow, STP....etc.) to check out compatability with each other BEFORE you "invade" her hometown (unless she invites you).  

Unless she lives in a village with a few  hundred people, you can still meet with her in her city and respect her privacy to not disclose that she is dating a foreigner. I met my wife in her city (roughly 220,000 inhabitants). We met at a cafe, we went to the movies and we otherwise dated, and my wife did not tell everybody that I was a foreigner and we never bumped into any of her friends. Even if we had bumped into someone she knew, I am sure she would have come up with some reason why she was with me other than dating in the first week (I was a business colleague, client, or she was helping out a lost foreigner or whatever). So, even though I understand why women do want to keep their dating quiet at the start of a relationship, that still is not a reason why you can't meet for a coffee in her city if it has more than let's say 50,000 people. Unless she happens to be a local celebrity, nobody will pay much attention to a nice couple having a coffee at the back of a discrete restaurant that she picked in a neighborhood far from home