St. Petersburg: Any Advice?

[Misha]

How bizarre.

Do you men out here really make commitments to women just so you can have sex? It's hard for me to believe. It's absolutely unnecessary. In this I agree with Pike. There are plenty of women in Russia that engage in sex because they enjoy it and because they feel comfortable with it, not because they expect some form of compensation.

Well, I have nothing with the sex part. However, I do wonder about the men who are desperately trying to prove their masculinity. We have Pike who clearly has no respect for women and accuses other posters of being "pussy whipped" for the simple reason that they were polite in conversing with one woman here. It is a shallow mentality that most mature men outgrow in adolescence IMHO  Also, it comes down to respect. Can a man truly respect a woman? Reading Pike's posts, I don't see it.

[Gator]

The feelings of an FSU gal won't be hurt nearly as much as happens to the WM.  They very quickly move on with their life.

While a RW may be tougher on the outside, it does not mean that the pain is any less on the inside.  In fact, repeated disappointments may well eat at her psyche. 

[topofthekey]

my problem with Ambach's trip report was that he was doing the nasty (or at least it read that way) with the lady before he even figured anything out about her like what you'd expect to find out on a couple of dates. The religion thing is a no brainer. I'm the same way. If you are too religious its just not going to work. Something you'd think Ambach would be trying to figure out on the first few days.... because if he is only doing the date one woman at a time routine... he can at least move on and meet another woman.

Overall maybe it is just a lack of experience with women and relationships and not the sex tourism thing. But I fully concur that you can be a sex tourist without steping foot in a brothel or paying a hooker. I will admit Ambach had a good reason to break it off... and I'm definiately not saying you need to propose to do anything physical... but you should probably at least go out on a date or two and get past the obvious issues... like religion.

[2tallbill]

How bizarre.

I just skimmed Ambach's trip report and don't see what the big fuss is about.

I agree,

In the very near future a trip report will be something like this.

I went to Russia
I got home
The borscht was good

Then the writer will have every word repeatedly psychoanalyzed for something that might
upset some puritan utopian sensibilities of anyone and everyone forever. Then the writer
must explain exactly and precisely why things didn't work out on a public forum and subjected
time and again to the same scrutiny.   

Just my two kopecks,


Bill

[Sculpto]

When two consenting adults engage in sex and break it off later.. well it can be painfull but it is not something worthy of criticism.

However, when WM go to the east and drop hints of marriage and K1 visas and a life of happiness together, end up engaging in sex with a woman, and later break off the relationship FOR ANY REASON I believe there has been a violation of trust and the possibility of deception increases in magnitude.  If the woman has been decieved or led to believe she can trust the man and she gives her body to him with the understanding that they are beginning to build a life together, but, the man has no intention of doing so, where is the consent?  If you get a girl drunk and have sex with her is it consent?  If you lie to her to break down her defenses is it consent?

Even if the guy had good intentions it is probably a good idea to use a bit more self control and restraint if the lady has reason to believe the man is actually serious.  

The attachment of sex tourist label is occuring because of these betrayals.  It is not the hooker monger that is causing the problems.. rather the men who are promising the world and end up giving nothing.  

[Faux Pas]

I agree,

In the very near future a trip report will be something like this.

I went to Russia
I got home
The borscht was good

Then the writer will have every word repeatedly psychoanalyzed for something that might
upset some puritan utopian sensibilities of anyone and everyone forever. Then the writer
must explain exactly and precisely things didn't work out on a public forum and subjected
time and again to the same scrutiny.   

Just my two kopecks,


Bill

Well said! Also kudos to Jooky's entire statement as well. ambach opened this thread for advice on St Pete and gets bombarded with some greater than thou attitude. Sex and relationship isn't mutually exclusive for everyone. They do not HAVE to come in pairs for consenting adults. For those judging ambach because he had sex and then ended the relationship, I suppose should rail on me too. I've had sex with many women in my past who I no longer have a relationship with. Those of you who haven't go ahead and cast the first stone.

ambach seems to me like a man with some emotional/relationship issues. I fear he's looking for a proverbial needle in a haystack and the optimum perfect woman which I believe he will never find. But I found nothing in his TR or his statements here where he could be coined a sex tourist. Thats just way off base. Relationships end all the time this is nothing new. If or when some of you break off with your lady (at least 50% of you will) will you call yourself a sex tourist?

[Jooky]

my problem with Ambach's trip report was that he was doing the nasty (or at least it read that way) with the lady before he even figured anything out about her like what you'd expect to find out on a couple of dates.

So what? That was up to them, not you or I. Some women wait until marriage to have sex, others jump in the sack with strangers they hook with at a night club. It's their decision.

However, when WM go to the east and drop hints of marriage and K1 visas and a life of happiness together, end up engaging in sex with a woman, and later break off the relationship FOR ANY REASON I believe there has been a violation of trust and the possibility of deception increases in magnitude

Yes, people who have never met and often barely can communicate drop hints about marriage and K1 visas during this 'process'. Sometimes it works out, but it is foolish at best. Then people meet and realize they are mistaken about this stranger they have been making deluded promises too. It's sad people are sucked into this fantasy. It's foolish for the inexperienced man to engage in this premature romance, but it's not a deliberate violation of trust.

Again, you imply that women are engaging in sex because they will be rewarded with marriage or a K1 visa. In my opinion, that is unethical.

It's true that many women engaged in this 'process' are quick to sleep with their visiting prospects. They do so to 'catch' their man before someone else does. That doesn't obligate the man in any way or form.

If you get a girl drunk and have sex with her is it consent?

Get a girl drunk? Do you mean physically force a girl to get drunk? If a girl gets drunk, yes it is her responsibility. If she is raped in her sleep, no she did not give her consent. If she has drunk conscious sex, yes it it her consent and responsibility.

If a person gets drunk, gets in a car and kills someone, they are responsible. The weak excuse that someone 'got' them drunk doesn't fly.

If you lie to her to break down her defenses is it consent?

Break down her defenses? Are you serious? In my experience women seek and enjoy sex just as much as men do. We're talking about women who have sex with men they just met after a few days or a few hours. If they are doing so not because they truly desire it but simply in exchange for promises of a better life, who is more unethical the woman or the man?

[Misha]

For those judging ambach because he had sex and then ended the relationship, I suppose should rail on me too. I've had sex with many women in my past who I no longer have a relationship with.

The problem is that it will likely be interpreted by women in Ukraine as another case of sexual tourism.

ambach seems to me like a man with some emotional/relationship issues. I fear he's looking for a proverbial needle in a haystack and the optimum perfect woman which I believe he will never find.

I agree with you here. Men must deal with their issues first before going to another country.

But I found nothing in his TR or his statements here where he could be coined a sex tourist. Thats just way off base. Relationships end all the time this is nothing new. If or when some of you break off with your lady (at least 50% of you will) will you call yourself a sex tourist?

Most men won't, but my guess is that if you were to ask women in Ukraine, many would think otherwise.

[Jooky]

The problem is that it will likely be interpreted by women in Ukraine as another case of sexual tourism.

I usually agree with the things you say, Misha, but I don't know about this. Do you mean typical women in Ukraine, or women who are part of the tight circle of active MOB agency girls?

I'd think an average woman in Russia wouldn't think once about this type of situation or so called 'sex tourists'. The whole MOB industry and the women involved are looked down upon in general and 'Western' men seeking brides have more of a reputation for being 'losers' than 'sex tourists' from what I've seen.

[Diplomacy]

Jooky does have a point about the perception of losers.  It is said even on this board, a large number of men people have met and seen on trips appear to be losers.

Pike from what I did read, seems to me you tend to be involved a lot with older women.  It is also fair to say that we have cougars in the USA right?

If the older and women with children are often overlooked by others there.  There is also an element of being better than a stick in the eye too.  I would think some women would be starved for attention, not many people want to be alone.  Feel to elaborate though, sometimes saying nothing says everything.  That would make you more of an opportunist if this is the case IMO.

[Misha]

I usually agree with the things you say, Misha, but I don't know about this. Do you mean typical women in Ukraine, or women who are part of the tight circle of active MOB agency girls?

No, the term has become much more widespread in my experience. I will give you an example. I went to see a woman in Ekaterinburg before I met my wife (i.e. close to 3 years ago). We met online via a free Russian dating site. She had not connection to any agency. Her mother warned her that I might be a "sex tourist." Her mother was probably as far as they get get from the tight circle of the agency girl as they get, yet the concept of the "sexual tourist" was part of her lexicon. Did I sleep with her daughter? Yes. I was very smitten by her and I had the best intentions: I would likely have married her, but she is the one who did not want to leave Russia.

So, if the term "sex tourist" has reached deep into Russia into the general population, then you can be certain that any Westerner going to Russia, spending some time with a woman, sleeping with her, and then dumping her, will be assumed to be a sex tourist by a large swath of the population even if they have had nothing to do with an agency.

I'd think an average woman in Russia wouldn't think once about this type of situation or so called 'sex tourists'.

See above. I heard the term "sex tourist" in Russia as described above. I was actually quite surprised when it was proposed that I might be one simply for visiting a woman that I had been chatting for a few months online and that I actually wanted to have a relationship with and was quite sincere in my intentions. If this was true for me, I have no doubts that women far from the MOB agencies will view the actions of Pike through the prism of a sex tourist (секс турист if you prefer LOL) and may interpret Ambach's actions in the same way.

[Jooky]

Her mother warned her that I might be a "sex tourist."

I suppose that's better than her mother lumping you in the more typical category, "loser". 

It's true, there have been shows on tv and articles written about 'sex tourists'. The girl you met's mother must have seen or read something. I still disagree that it's common perception, and I disagree that it's an accurate term.

People meet, sleep together and dump each other all the time. Both men and women do it. I think in most cases this term 'sex tourist' is bred out of spite. It's the same as women here in the US saying things like 'all men are assholes' because they got dumped.

Pike is a businessman spending much time in the FSU. There are many men like him as there are many ex-patriots in the FSU. These men date women, sometimes many women, just like Russian men do. If he was a Russian business man would he be a 'sex local'? I think he'd be considered 'normal'. Since he's a foreigner he's a 'sex tourist'? I don't buy it.

[ambach123]

Actually both of us are heart broken. We were in love. She did not tell me about the degree of her religious beliefs, until later. I just don't think a marriage would be prudent in these circumstances.

Why she witheld that information early on? Most likely not to scare me off.

Ironically, I did not expect to find this in Ukraine, as I was told that most people are not very religious.

I can't say that I feel good about it, specially knowing that she is heart broken.

[Misha]

The girl you met's mother must have seen or read something. I still disagree that it's common perception, and I disagree that it's an accurate term.

Of course she saw something on television. But, given that there are a limited number of channels that most people watch, if this woman's mother watched enough television to think that a foreigner coming to see her daughter was potentially a sex tourist, a lot of mother and grandmothers must have seen the same television shows.

I agree that perhaps it is not an accurate term, but from my experience which I defined, it is the term that is now being used in Russia (and I would guess Ukraine).

If he was a Russian business man would he be a 'sex local'?

If Pike were a local Russian he would be called a "бабник" (or worse).

[Misha]

Why she witheld that information early on? Most likely not to scare me off.

Why? Did you tell her that you did not want to marry a religious woman? She more than likely assumed that since Americans are religious people you would not have any objections to her faith. Don't most of the men pursuing the MOB dream want a "traditional" woman?

Ironically, I did not expect to find this in Ukraine, as I was told that most people are not very religious.

As the saying goes, don't assume anything.

I can't say that I feel good about it, specially knowing that she is heart broken.

This is the reason why it is important for you to know what you are looking for in a woman before you even start. If there is anything that you consider a "deal breaker" you should should figure this out immediately.

IMHO this is why you should figure this stuff out first before rushing off to Saint Petersburg.

[Misha]

just like Russian men do

One thing, it is important to keep in mind that  you will never be just a local no matter how long you live there. As an American (or Canadian or Brit or whatever) in Russia, you are whether you want to or not an "ambassador" of your country. The normal rules don't apply to you.

[Blues Fairy]

Based on my discussions and observations, it is my opinion that: 
The feelings of an FSU gal won't be hurt nearly as much as happens to the WM.  They very quickly move on with their life.

Just because they move on doesn't mean they haven't been hurt very badly.  Women have objectively less time than men to sort out their personal life, so there's no time to wallow in disappointment, acute as it may be.  Besides, a hurry to move on might be just the result of a very bad heartbreak, have you ever thought about that?  Oh and how likely are RW to complain of bad heartbreaks caused by WM to yet another WM?  I bet they are much more likely to demonstrate some toughness and pride. 

But who am I to comment on the characters of RW when we've got such a specialist here. 

[Diplomacy]

Still waters run deep as they stay.  I find that while they may be rather stoic on the outside, they tend to internalize also.  So the outward appearance may seem undaunted, the soul is anything but.

I could be way out in left field, but that has been my observations as time has gone on.  Watch the mood to know what they are really feeling or thinking.  That goes for the men too.  There is like 2 different persona, the one they allow the world to see and the one that only a few know.

I like the latter better.

[GoodOlBoy]

Pike is a businessman spending much time in the FSU. .........Since he's a foreigner he's a 'sex tourist'? I don't buy it.

.... just like Russian men do.

I completely disagree.

He is an Ambassador of good will representing his country. Giving him the "label" of "businessman" doesn't entitle him to spread his seeds all over Russia by the 100's. Leaving a trail of disrust for WM in his wake.

IMHO, it is people like him, who will eventually make it impossible for newbies to ever find a good, trusting women in the FSU.

I don't think we should even begin to justify the behavior of this man by comparing him to Russian Men.

After all, isn't the main reason most FSU ladies are leaving Russia, is because of Russian men's behavior?

[AnastassiaAsh]

So what? That was up to them, not you or I. Some women wait until marriage to have sex, others jump in the sack with strangers they hook with at a night club. It's their decision.

Exactly. I would say both of them made a huge mistake and are paying accordingly. Ambach found enough of courage to withdrew his K1, and as to his woman, nobody was making her having sex with Ambach, so she knew what she was doing. Both had fun resulting with nothing. Religious...hahahah! Heartbroken...hahahah! Ambach, she is totally heartbroken because of your conversation about the prenup! Can you see this?   

[Jooky]

The normal rules don't apply to you.

What 'rules' do apply to us and who defines them?

As 'Westerners' are we obliged to make promises before sex and marry any woman that puts out on the first date? Are we obligated to file a K1 within the first week of dating? Are we supposed to follow 'the process' rather than date normally as Russian men do?

In Russia the biggest complaint I've heard about 'Westerners' is exactly that they think that the normal rules don't apply to them.

IMHO, it is people like him, who will eventually make it impossible for newbies to ever find a good women in the FSU.

What exactly has Pike done that so many here are up in arms against him? Does he lie to the women he meets? Does he pretend to be someone he is not? Does he make false promises? Does he cheat on his wife or a serious girlfriend? Those things I would find despicable, but I haven't read him making any of these claims.

He goes to the FSU for business. Business man is a much more appropriate label than 'ambassador of good will'. And yes he is 'entitled' to date normally anywhere in the world in my opinion, just as much as you were 'entitled' to choose a bride from a foreign land. Or should this entitlement be afforded only to those who follow your moral standards?

With the mentality I see displayed in this thread it's no wonder that so many 'nice' and 'honorable' men are suckered into marrying Green Card Girls.

[Misha]

What 'rules' do apply to us and who defines them?

Well, social norms and conventions as defined by the larger society.

With the mentality I see displayed in this thread it's no wonder that so many 'nice' and 'honorable' men are suckered into marrying Green Card Girls.

Maybe, but it could also be said with all the male jerks and a**holes who go to Russia to find women, no wonder all the decent women quickly jump ship leaving only the pro-daters, scammers and Green Card Girls  :evil:

[SANDRO43]

Well, social norms and conventions as defined by the larger society.

WHICH larger society? Your city's, county's, state's, nation's, continent's, hemisphere's ?

[Misha]

WHICH larger society? Your city's, county's, state's, nation's, continent's, hemisphere's ?

Well, you start first with the family, then work up to the neighborhood or the larger community in which a person is located, then the state. Once you have reached the state, then you don't usually have many overarching norms left, though there are of course the various conventions such as the Geneva conventions and others. 

[Jooky]

Well, social norms and conventions as defined by the larger society.

And should foreigners abide by the local social norms and conventions or not?

Are there separate norms for foreigners?

Do you think that the regular 'process' followed by most men here conforms to the norms and conventions of Russian or any society?

Maybe, but it could also be said with all the male jerks and a**holes who go to Russia to find women, no wonder all the decent women quickly jump ship leaving only the pro-daters, scammers and Green Card Girls

Leaving only pro-daters, scammers and Green Card Girls, where? In agencies?

I personally don't know Pike. Do you? All I know is that he has dated many women, which is normal behaviour both here and in Russia. That doesn't make him a jerk or an a**hole. I haven't witnessed his behaviour in Russia, but if he was an a**hole I doubt he would be going on too many dates.