RM as Marriage Partners?

[AnastassiaAsh]

I have lived in Moscow, Russia all of my life for 25 years and never ever even once saw or met a good Russian man who would not drink or smoke, just for starters, and then who would have a great stable job with a place to start a family with... Yes, some of my male relatives are very good people, but i would never marry them. Of course there are good and bad people everywhere. But in Russia the majority IS bad, and so bad you don't want to know. I have been part of many different circles of society back in Moscow and the situation is beyond impossible. That's why I started looking abroad. As to other women who are 'happy' with their Russian husbands, most of them don't know English and are just scared of the whole idea of living in another country... They are staying there and taking this abuse because there are no other possibilities for them, they are stuck in their wrong thinking and their psyche has changed so much that they started looking at all men's bad traits as good, justifying them, saying for example that 'If a man beats a woman, he truly loves her'.   
As GoodOldBoy said, it's not the reason to accept such a behavior. I will always address and behave with people respectfully, but in some cases in my heart I will always know who is who and what's behind. And why am I even arguing with you about this? 

[Diplomacy]

What Jooky said is fair and well within reason of perception. We have our own visitors and have seen the attitude that there is a glaring resentment towards.  I do not know any UM that are big fans of wM coming and taking "their best women"

The reality is that the government does little to hold a man accountable for the welfare of a child.  You can not say all of the men are abusive or cheat.  I have met more UM then women.  I have several that I consider friends now.  They have a genuine interest in me as a person and my pursuits in Ukraine.

They are great fathers and husbands from my fiance's account and their wife.  They are not acting like shrinking violets around their husbands.  They are vibrant and we had a lot of fun.  Some of the men grew up with no father and wanted to ensure that never happened to their child.  Some had a positive influence in their own father.  They continue to be a person that their father is or would be proud of.

I have talked about the factors pertaining to the abuse of partner, substance, and in some cases children.  They admit fully that there is a large percentage of men doing what we say occurs on the boards, larger then they themselves would like to see.  It is just that a larger percentage, and it is not fair to judge the collective as such.  It is never good to speak in absolutes.

For the women, it is a roll of the dice either way.  For every account here of an abusive FSU man, GCG, and DV case there is an account of FSU being used, abused, and treated as a trophy rather than a person by an American Man.

Why do you think there is paperwork needed to get contact information with the agency? The law was not designed to protect the American in this case, it is to protect the women.

You can argue the whole post from every angle and everyone is still right.  Sometimes you need to be the better Man, and at the same time not act or think you are better than anyone.  My fiance's husband was gone one day, and that was it.  Has had no contact and does not want contact with his son.  He signed his rights away well before I was in the picture.  My fiance had rights revoked after she saw what my friends went through.  It was a matter of payment to get her exhusband to sign the papers to revoke parental rights.  

So it is both sides and it is what it is.  Do not be Naive, but it is not fair to judge someone before you have even met them either.  An Ambassador enlightens others, and it is hard to hate someone that you like as a person.  

[Misha]

a good Russian man who would not drink or smoke, just for starters

Well, this would rule out most Russian men sadly. IIRC somewhere close to 75% of Russian men smoke (and the numbers are pretty high for RW as well, but I can't recall the number). As for drinking, I do confess that I never did meet a Russian man who did not drink at all. However, using this criteria I would also not fall into the criteria of a good Canadian man as I like an occasional beer or glass of wine  :evil:

[neo]

For the genuine RW it is not the fact the man is western or American that attracts them so strongly but perhaps that he would even bother to travel half way across the globe to be with them, when most guys would be too lazy to cross the street.

Done properly, the old fashioned courtship, the flowers, the dates, the I miss you's. the attentiveness of a man who has a BIG investment, both financial and emotional in someone so far away is something that is the heart and soul of what most russian women dream of, and are usually cruelly denied by men made stone by their countries harsh society.

Pushkin is both beautifully optimistic and tragic at the same time, that is the nature for me of russian love - it is to dream of perfection and to always be dissapointed but accept ones fate.

Not long ago, in a charming dream,
I saw myself -- a king with crown's treasure;
I was in love with you, it seemed,
And heart was beating with a pleasure.
I sang my passion's song by your enchanting knees.
Why, dreams, you didn't prolong my happiness forever?
But gods deprived me not of whole their favor:
I only lost the kingdom of my dreams.

no girl i have met of any nationality is capable of being romanced quite as much as a russian/ukrainian girl. it seems as if its in their very soul to have their heart melted to butter by the orchestra of romance.

it just seems such a pity to me that Pike insists on playing them Slipknot through one broken speaker rather than intermezzo from cavalleria rusticana

[Ade]

I have lived in Moscow, Russia all of my life for 25 years and never ever even once saw or met a good Russian man who would not drink or smoke, just for starters, and then who would have a great stable job with a place to start a family with... Yes, some of my male relatives are very good people, but i would never marry them. Of course there are good and bad people everywhere. But in Russia the majority IS bad, and so bad you don't want to know. I have been part of many different circles of society back in Moscow and the situation is beyond impossible. That's why I started looking abroad. As to other women who are 'happy' with their Russian husbands, most of them don't know English and are just scared of the whole idea of living in another country... They are staying there and taking this abuse because there are no other possibilities for them, they are stuck in their wrong thinking and their psyche has changed so much that they started looking at all men's bad traits as good, justifying them, saying for example that 'If a man beats a woman, he truly loves her'.   
As GoodOldBoy said, it's not the reason to accept such a behavior. I will always address and behave with people respectfully, but in some cases in my heart I will always know who is who and what's behind. And why am I even arguing with you about this? 

My girlfriend was appalled when she read this and to be honest, it surprised me that you'd say it too even if you do come across as being cynical in your posts from time to time.

I'm curious though, do you consider all men that drink and/or smoke bad men even if they do so in moderation? If you do, then it would explain how you consider that the majority of men in Russia are "bad". Maybe you just mean that you're not interested in good men if they drink or smoke?

Anyway, I replied to you because I've been to Russia for less than a month in total so far and yet I've met several good men already; some of them don't drink or smoke either. Maybe I'll meet some more over Christmas. My girlfriend has also told me of many friends that she has with caring husbands that don't even beat them. She's also worked and lived in Moscow up until a couple of years ago and knows good men there too.

Maybe you were hanging out in the wrong social circles?

[Gator]

My girlfriend has also told me of many friends that she has with caring husbands that don't even beat them.

Not sure of the intended meaning.  Is "no physical abuse" her standard for being a "good" man?

[GoodOlBoy]

Gator, I agree with you about intelligence (I.Q). IMHO most of the people posting on this forum appear to have a pretty high intelligence level.

But again, IMHO, intelligence does not equate to perversion.

But.....maybe in this case?

She said her period would be starting.....I had told Anna in previous e-mails about crotchless panties

 

[Ade]

Not sure of the intended meaning.  Is "no physical abuse" her standard for being a "good" man?

No, just a little sarcasm with reference to, "they beat them because they love them".

[AnastassiaAsh]

SeriouslyJaded, I am quite appalled at this too, that’s why I started looking for a man abroad. As to being cynical, yeah, sometimes. I am based only on the experience of my whole life that taught me to be cynical and not trust Russian men. Here in the US, it’s a totally different story. There is hope and it always comes true.
Of course those circles were wrong, so I didn’t stay there for too long. What I saw and heard was enough for me once or twice. As to other good circles, I truly didn’t find them at all. Maybe it’s the specifics of Moscow, but definitely didn’t plan on making friends with a young man from out of town.
As to moderation, then this doesn’t apply to Russia, and everybody knows it. It’s lesson 101.
I am really glad you met some good people already. Are they single true Christian believers, around 35 y.o. with Masters degree, very tall and handsome, with much more than average stable salary with a big apartment to live in, loyal, one woman men, non-drinkers, non-smokers? I seriously doubt it. 

[Sculpto]

 Are they single true Christian believers,

Is this a requirement for being a good person? 

[AnastassiaAsh]

Please, don't find fault with my words. No, it's not a requirement to be a good person. However it was a HUGE and one of the most important requirements for my prospective partner back then. SeriouslyJaded and me are talking specifically about me not being able to find a good Russian man.

[Misha]

Are they single true Christian believers, around 35 y.o. with Masters degree, very tall and handsome, with much more than average stable salary with a big apartment to live in, loyal, one woman men, non-drinkers, non-smokers? I seriously doubt it. 

To find a man in Russia fitting that criteria AND STILL SINGLE would be close to impossible IMHO 

[Makkin]

Jaded,

  I am speaking for myself and if you cannot handle that it makes sense you are seeking something a little less jaded in sorts..lol.

  If by chance it is all fiction then I am able to still learn dude..lol

Makkin

[Sculpto]

Please, don't find fault with my words. No, it's not a requirement to be a good person. However it was a HUGE and one of the most important requirements for my prospective partner back then. SeriouslyJaded and me are talking specifically about me not being able to find a good Russian man.

I am not finding fault Anastasia.. but by mentioning that concept you made me think.  I am not religious at all and i made a point of finding a woman who claims not to be religious.  But, at the same time I worry a little about how embedded in the culture are certain religious attitudes and bias.  In 9 days in Moscow I heard more negative comments about Jews than I have heard in the USA in the last 20 years.  My girl does not seem to have any specific issues in this regard, but, I don't really know her that well.

[Ade]

SeriouslyJaded, I am quite appalled at this too, that’s why I started looking for a man abroad. As to being cynical, yeah, sometimes. I am based only on the experience of my whole life that taught me to be cynical and not trust Russian men. Here in the US, it’s a totally different story. There is hope and it always comes true.
Of course those circles were wrong, so I didn’t stay there for too long. What I saw and heard was enough for me once or twice. As to other good circles, I truly didn’t find them at all. Maybe it’s the specifics of Moscow, but definitely didn’t plan on making friends with a young man from out of town.
As to moderation, then this doesn’t apply to Russia, and everybody knows it. It’s lesson 101.
I am really glad you met some good people already. Are they single true Christian believers, around 35 y.o. with Masters degree, very tall and handsome, with much more than average stable salary with a big apartment to live in, loyal, one woman men, non-drinkers, non-smokers? I seriously doubt it. 

Actually, I have to question the big apartment and greater than average salary. A little mercenary wouldn't you say? Aren't girls that require these sorts of things the red flag girls that should be avoided?

And what about that masters degree? Where does that fit into anything exactly? 

So, because you couldn't find anyone that fit into your very specific criteria you think that all are bad men? Or am I misreading this?

[Jooky]

Yup, the 'good men are all taken', just like in California. I've heard the women out here say the same thing a million times (except out here the good ones are either taken or gay). Anastassia says it was so in Moscow. So does a girl Moonlight who posted a week ago. Yet every time I've pointed out to a woman... what about this guy? Or him? Or even him? Ah, but they're not attractive, so they might as well not exist.

So what's a good man:

Tall
Handsome
Master's degree
Doesn't drink
Doesn't smoke
Owns a big apartment
Rich
True Christian believer

Oh! No wonder I was confused. I thought a 'good' man was a dedicated husband, a hard worker, a good father, caring, compassionate, understanding. These men I've met in Russia, but sadly they are not all rich, tall and handsome, and yes, they throw back a few drinks now and then.

I don't knock anyone for having a set of criteria. I think it's a good thing, and God knows I have my impossible to find criteria too. But men or women are not 'bad' because they don't fit your ideals of perfection.

When women in California say all the good ones are taken, men will say they are stuck up, jaded, spoiled, too picky, and this is why we seek women in Russia. 

[Makkin]

vmrw,

  All the psychology in the world is not good enough to explain properly what may be or not be with Pike. It matters little to me to try and understand that section because he has commited no crime.
  The way he does things in his life is an interesting thing and worth reading. Interest is a good thing and learning is nice but to go sar far as to try and label or stereotype this person is a waste of time..lol This board has a way of running in a pack and attempting to set standards and rules for which to go by. Pike has his standards and rules and I'm interested in his experiences regardless the psyco-analysis.

Makkin

[groovlstk]

It would be useful to break off the RM vs. western men discussion to a new thread. There are genuine differences and passionate opinions about these differences, a focused discussion w/out cluttering up Pike's TR would be quite useful, IMHO.

[Admin]

It would be useful to break off the RM vs. western men discussion to a new thread. There are genuine differences and passionate opinions about these differences, a focused discussion w/out cluttering up Pike's TR would be quite useful, IMHO.

I agree.

I'll see what I can do about separating them a bit later tonight.

- Dan

[GoodOlBoy]

Oh! No wonder I was confused. I thought a 'good' man was a dedicated husband, a hard worker, a good father, caring, compassionate, understanding.

Sir, the man you just described above could be a chain smoking, alcoholic that lives in a trailer park in Alabama.

Seriously, Russian women want more than what is in your description.

And who could blame them for wanting more?

I personally believe that if you uproot these special women from their homeland, you should be able to meet their expectations.

IMO if you can't, you should just leave them alone.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Oh! No wonder I was confused. I thought a 'good' man was a dedicated husband, a hard worker, a good father, caring, compassionate, understanding. These men I've met in Russia, but sadly they are not all rich, tall and handsome, and yes, they throw back a few drinks now and then.

Jooky, my list starts with these things that i mentioned but doesn't end there, all the qualities that you are mentioning are of course on my list, but if a man is a great person inside but doesn't have a good job, not handsome and drinks, then still thanks, but no thanks. All I wanted to say that so many Russian men couldn't even start fitting my list because ALL, absolutely ALL who i met drank, smoked or both. And if not then they were not Christians...or something else that is very important to me lacked.

So, as Misha confirmed, it was impossible for me to find a man of my dreams who would fully satisfy my vision and who I wanted to marry for the rest of my life. Misha, even if we don't look among still single, but married, still I bet we won't find them.

In my mind, no matter how good a person is character-wise or in any other way good and virtuous, but who drinks or smokes, he is not a good man, not a true Christian, far from it. This is how I look at it. Because it matters to me, and I am sure to the majority of women. (drinking one goblet of shampaign or some wine twice a year is fine)

Sculpto, we are not going to unleash the topic of Russian Jews or any other Jews, but this is spot on, you will face this in Russia if you live long enough there.

SeriouslyJaded, those girls who require those things are not red flags if they can give the same or more than that themselves in return. And I am asking for all of this not because I want to get advantage in that regard, but simply because that kind of man will be of my personal level, the same level as me (money, education,values wise). Why would a woman want to downgrade, it should always be the same level or higher. It's should be a man's primary goal, to provide, as well as woman's to raise kids...

And I think that ALL, or 99,99999% of Russian Men are bad simply because they drink and smoke to the oblivion, unhealthy and I can go further....not because some of them are not educated or something else....let's start with simple things and most rampant in Russia.

Pike, sorry for hijacking your thread. It turns out to be quite an interesting TR, if i don't pay attention to your sex adventures.   

Dan, yes, please, make a new thread. Thank you. 

[AnastassiaAsh]

Sir, the man you just described above could be a chain smoking, alcoholic that lives in a trailer park in Alabama.

Seriously, Russian women want more than what is in your description.

And who could blame them for wanting more?

I personally believe that if you uproot these special women from their homeland, you should be able to meet their expectations.

IMO if you can't, you should just leave them alone.

GoodOldBoy, that's very true. You totally see what I am trying to explain here. 

[GoodOlBoy]

Sculpto, we are not going to unleash the topic of Russian Jews or any other Jews, but this is spot on, you will face this in Russia if you live long enough there.

   I was only in Siberia for a couple of month's and I heard PLENTY of derogatory comments about Jews.

BTW.... In the RW/UW community here in N. Miami, I also hear plenty about this topic.

[GoodOlBoy]

GoodOldBoy, that's very true. You totally see what I am trying to explain here. 

 


I get it Mrs. AnastassiaAsh. I got it a long time ago when I met my wife, Marina.


 

[Jooky]

Sir, the man you just described above could be a chain smoking, alcoholic that lives in a trailer park in Alabama.

Very doubtful.

Russian women want more than what is in your description.

Sure, everyone has their own criteria and the vast majority find it back home. That's a fact.

Like I said, I don't knock anyone for having standards. That doesn't make the people that don't fit these standards 'bad'. If you tell me a man is 'bad' because he cheats, ok. If you say he's 'bad' because he's not rich or with a Masters degree, that's bull.

If a man is an abusive alcoholic, that's one thing. But, to say a man is not a 'good' man because he drinks or smokes is preposterous. He just doesn't fit what you're looking for and that's that.

Anastassia if you simply say you have high criteria and couldn't find this back home, I have no problem with that. To label all Russian men as bad and say the situation is beyond impossible when I or anyone can go to Russia for a few weeks and meet good guys (not alcoholic, chain smoking or living in poverty either) shows a cynical and jaded attitude in common with the type of women most men here try to avoid back home.

I wonder what percentage of American men seeking Russian brides fit Anastassia's definition of a 'good man'. I'd wager less than 1 percent. Would you meet her expectations? If not, does that make you a 'bad' man too? (I'm two qualities away from being a 'good' man myself (not tall, and I drink sometimes), but I make up for it by actually being a good guy).  

PS. I'm glad that you did find a man that fits your criteria. I think that's a great thing about international dating.

PPS. A true Christian doesn't drink? Does that include Christ and his Apostles?