RM as Marriage Partners?

[Misha]

Hey.. we all have problems.. LOL

I'll take a rather bold approach and simply say that if one takes an equivalent 'slice' of social strata from FSU and US, compare the smoking and drinking and maybe even wife beating the percentages won't be that different.

Equivalent slice? I am always amazed at how you must willingly overlook the obvious. These statistics are based on the entire population and out of the entire population 70% of Russian males smoke. Overall, Russia consumes more tobacco products (in terms of sheer quantity smoked) than the United States even though it has less than half of the population. From a public health perspective this is catastrophic.

As for violence against women, the statistics are equally atrocious. When comparing the murder rates of women in Russia as opposed to Canada is some twenty times higher per capita in Russia than in Canada for example. True, not all women are beaten and killed by their husbands, but the odds are much worse than in Canada and most other European states and North America.

Again, I am not saying that all Russian men are bad, but as a society and as a state, Russia suffers from higher rates of smoking, violence, and I would also say alcohol abuse.

Feel free to keep your head in the sand, but I challenge you to provide some credible statistics that counters my argument.

[Diplomacy]

Also Russia does not make a lot of crime statistics public.  Even the documented cases of murder may be in fact very low versus actual statistic.  Crime rate and my personal anecdotal questions to law enforcement do not seem to add up.  IMO the stats are understated to begin with.  Especially anything less than murder.  Loose lips sink ships right?

[Misha]

IMO the stats are understated to begin with. 

This is also true for stats of alcohol consumption. They do not include all the types of alcohol consumed, included as I noted samagon and cologne. In some villages, samagon is a form of currency: if you wanted men to do some work, you would pay them in bottles of samagon. Then, there were  the old men asking for 5 rubles, the cost of a bottle of troynoy cologne that is often one of the drinks of last resort for alcoholics in Russia.

[Diplomacy]

It is Empathy to the max.  That was my feelings as I walked about on my own.  I was in a very poor city too.  All I can see is trouble coming soon, worse than it is now. 

Nobody saw the new traffic laws in Ukraine about stopping at a crosswalk?  It is a great step from some sage advice.  Big traffic fines to feed a cop's family, and at the same time picture only needed to give fine.  So some of it is getting back to the city.

It is definitely a wait and see approach. You wait to see if the driver stops, and then cross lol.

Hope is not lost, but it is not going to be easy.  Of course it has not been easy there for a long time.  Ukraine has 5% of the world's mineral deposits.  It is just a travesty to watch a society consume itself. 

The whole situation is a series of events that need to take place at once.  You can not fix one area without fixing several others at once.  Very complicated mess. 

[2tallbill]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see Jooky and AnastassiaAshe
having mutually exclusive arguments.

AA says that their were no men available 35 years old that met her
requirements. Jooky said there are many good RM. I would guess
that many of the men Jooky is referring to are married which makes
them unavailable to AA back when she was looking.

I have seen many others like Lilly say that yeah there are good RM out
there but they have already been taken. I have heard other RW say that
the pool of good available men get married and by age 35 the pool
of good ones that are unmarried is virtually nil.

[Misha]

Interestingly, my wife was talking to one of our friends about the challenge of being a woman in Russia (I didn't prod her, I swear ). She noted that she often worked in companies where her co-workers were predominantly male. Quite often, she would have some male co-workers that she thought were ideal husbands and family-oriented men. Quite often, she would see them a week later at a café clearly having a romantic rendezvous with women who were not their wives  Though I do agree with Jooky that there are good men, there is also a reason why some Russian women grow a bit cynical as to whether there are any good Russian men, single or married.

[Shadow]

I have heard other RW say that
the pool of good available men get married and by age 35 the pool
of good ones that are unmarried is virtually nil.

Question is, does this go for Russia exclusively or could the same be said for men in Europe an the USA ?

[AnastassiaAsh]

i can also add that it doesn't matter really what kind of neighbourhood, low class or high class. I consider mine maybe middle class. But i just know that very high class people drink and smoke a lot in Moscow too. Doctors and those from different medical fields do that even more and it's worse, because they have access to more pure alcohol.

Don't remember who said it, but 'great fathers and hard drinkers' is an oxymoron, that is even ridiculous.

Sandro, you shocked me with all this honest info about yourself. I am really disappointed and sad.    ..........

[Misha]

NOTICE TO READERS

- I smoke since I was 15 (50+ years)
- I drive with my seatbelt unfastened (at least in town)
- I drink a glass or two of wine, or a beer, at dinner, and a tot of Cognac afterwards

According to somebody's definition, I'm a BAD man and not a good Christian (no great problem with that ).

THEREFORE, I'M ALREADY DEAD, PAY NO ATTENTION TO MY POSTS.

Again, as I noted, no risk factor will guarantee that you will be sick of die, but with a decent sized group of people living the life you described, you will find many more dying than a similar sized group of people who do not partake in the risk factors described. The alcohol consumption you describe is not necessarily excessive, but the smoking will not help your prospects of living to 100

[Gator]

I'll take a rather bold approach and simply say that if one takes an equivalent 'slice' of social strata from FSU and US, compare the smoking and drinking and maybe even wife beating the percentages won't be that different.

BC, have you been away from America too long?  I looked only at smoking, and from the American Heart Association:

In the United States, an estimated 25.9 million men (23.9 percent) and 20.7 million women (18.1 percent) are smokers. These people are at higher risk of heart attack and stroke. The latest estimates for persons age 18 and older show...*

Among non-Hispanic whites, 24.0 percent of men and 20.0 percent of women smoke (2004).  
Among non-Hispanic blacks, 26.7 percent of men and 17.3 percent of women smoke.
Among Hispanics, 21.1 percent of men and 11.1 percent of women smoke.
Among Asians (only), 20.6 percent of men and 6.1 percent of women smoke.
Among American Indians/Alaska Natives, 37.5 percent of men and 26.8 percent of women smoke.
Studies show that smoking prevalence is higher among those who had earned a GED diploma (43.2 percent) and among those with 9–11 years of education (32.6 percent) compared with those with more than 16 years of education (7.1 percent). It's highest among persons living below the poverty level (29.9 percent).

Not one group compares with RM and RW.  While we have seen a remarkable decline in smoking in the uS, the tobacco company Altris (Philip Morris) still makes excellent earnings year after year because of Europe and the third world.  

[Gator]

Again, as I noted, no risk factor will guarantee that you will be sick of die, but with a decent sized group of people living the life you described, you will find many more dying than a similar sized group of people who do not partake in the risk factors described. The alcohol consumption you describe is not necessarily excessive, but the smoking will not help your prospects of living to 100

Actually, the moderate amount of alcohol consumption may increase Sandro's life expectancy, for sure make it more enjoyable.

[Misha]

Actually, the moderate amount of alcohol consumption may increase Sandro's life expectancy, for sure make it more enjoyable.

I would agree, however I would not encourage Sandro to start quaffing a bottle of Troynoy cologne before, during or after a meal. Trust me, that won't help his life expectency

[Blues Fairy]

Actually, the moderate amount of alcohol consumption may increase Sandro's life expectancy, for sure make it more enjoyable.

I would by no means deprive my husband of his daily glass of scotch and cigar.

[chivo]

Normally when there is such extreme opinions of certain topics the truth tends to lay somewhere in the middle.

The fact is many men in Russia drink. Some very much. Others, though small in numbers, don't drink at all. Most of the RM I know drink similar to what I have experienced with men in America.

I, through my work, meet many people here. Since I'm often dealing with a more ambitious minded RM, I find that most of them do not drink, drink socially, or in a business setting and don't abuse it. Most are married and quite devoted to their families.

I think most, if not all of the negative comments I've read about with regard to RM can be said generally about any other male living throughout any country. I find it ridiculous to claim that RM are bad because of this. Of course too much drinking by anyone is not good.

In fact if you looked at any list that shows alcohol consumption per person, Russia ranks 12th behind other "good" countries  , such as Spain, Britain (does anybody drink more than these people  ), Germany, France, Ireland, Denmark, Portugal...well you get my drift. All these countries have longer life expectancies than Russia.

I can also safely say that drug use in America, LEGAL prescription drug use, kills more people than all the cocaine, heroin, meth, etc. combined. Americans (ab)use of these types of drug is second to none. This is not taking into account all the negative consequences it has on one's family life.
http://www.truthout.org/111208HA 

I personally find some people here to be quite hypocritical when it comes to the truth. Turning a blind eye doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I know of many AM who have been awful husbands, fathers, brothers, and sons. I think that is at the base of what Jooky is saying, yet some want to stereotypically generalize.

What I also found interesting was when people commented on boards that show the list of the world most ambitious drinkers, most commented that they were surprised Russia wasn't number 1. Again, stereotypical thinking, while based in some truth, misses the "real" truth.

As to longevity. While drinking and smoking has a impact, there's more to it than that. Greece has the highest per capita smokers in the world, and I'm sure they throw a few back as well, but have a life expectancy almost equal to the USA.

To me it's a combination of things in addition to drinking and smoking that renders it lethal; 1) stress IMHO is the biggest culprit. The Soviet lifestyle and the transition from it made for quite a stressful life compared to other countries. 2) Outdated, under funded medical care/technology and a macho attitude towards medical help. 3) The Russian diet IMO is not exactly heart friendly. 4) Insufficient education/information about the negative effects of smoking especially, and to a lesser extent, drinking, also plays a major role. If you look back to the 80's in America, you'll find that smoking has decreased around 50% since then, albeit the numbers will show that Americans never smoked quite as much as Russians (as Gator made reference).

Most of this success can be attributed to better education and aggressive anti-smoking campaigns unseen in Russia.

Be that as it may, none of this guarantees a good or bad prospective man/husband. How absurd.

Sandro, you shocked me with all this honest info about yourself. I am really disappointed and sad.    ..........

In my book, good Christians accept without judgment. You judge way too much.

chivo

[AnastassiaAsh]

whatever!

Some of you guys are totally oblivious and don't know what you are talking about. You have to go to Russia and live there for about 10-15 years, start with a little country town, freeze your happy little buts in that cold too, communicate with those 'very nice' RM, trying to be successful in that 'sober' and 'healthy' environment while staying completely honest and truthful in everything you do.... and then come back here and then we will see what kind of political correctness you will have.... No, stay there and keep raising your kids surrounding them with 'very nice' examples...

[Misha]

In fact if you looked at any list that shows alcohol consumption per person, Russia ranks 12th behind other "good" countries  , such as Spain, Britain (does anybody drink more than these people  ), Germany, France, Ireland, Denmark, Portugal...well you get my drift. All these countries have longer life expectancies than Russia.

Chivo, have you ever been to a Russian village? Even the smallest village has a few families that are brewing their own samagon and sell it/share it with neighbors. The official tallies only count the official alcohol that is brewed and distilled in Russia. It does not count the samagon and it does not count the "spirit" that was meant for hospitals for example and consumed by people. I have been to dozens of Canadian villages, and I have yet to encounter one family brewing their own moonshine.

In my 13+ years experience, and travel to dozens of Russian cities and town from Moscow to Magadan, I can attest to the fact that Russian drink more. I have drunk samagon and spirit (the pure alcohol usually mixed on a 1 to 1 ratio with water. Even doctors and academics, good family men, will drink more than any North American I have ever met. The only exceptions are a few extreme alcoholics that I knew growing up as a child and some binge drinkers from my college years, but that is another story.

I know of many AM who have been awful husbands, fathers, brothers, and sons. I think that is at the base of what Jooky is saying, yet some want to stereotypically generalize.

At no point did I say that there were no problem drinkers in North America, or no smokers or no abusive husbands, but that does not deny the magnitude of the social problems facing Russia at the moment.

What I also found interesting was when people commented on boards that show the list of the world most ambitious drinkers, most commented that they were surprised Russia wasn't number 1. Again, stereotypical thinking, while based in some truth, misses the "real" truth.

Again, even Russian sources acknowledge that official government statistics only captures a small proportion of the alcohol actually consumed in Russia.

[Gator]

My observations based on about 250 days in the FSU:

1.   I have been on about 5-6 all-inclusive package tours to Turkey (aka the Russian Riviera) and Egypt.  The hotel guests were at least 70% Russian or Ukrainian, and the all-inclusive package included alcohol.  If alcohol was abused, one would think this would be a prime setting.  I saw only one obnoxious drunk and my wife asserted he was not Russian.  The RM/UM were drinking and drinking early, but not to excess, even though they were on holiday.  Yes, there was the occasional raucous laughter and sometimes a crude remark, yet not what I called binge drinking.

2.   There is more visible drinking in Russia than in America, making the infrequent traveler perceive alcohol abuse.  Examples are drinking on benches outside apartment building weather permitting, teenagers walking around with opened liter bottles of beer not in a brown bag, tolerated crude behavior in clubs, heavy drinking on the air flight to the point of sexual acts (under the blanket), and the occasional alcoholic passed out in the gutter.

3.   I have attended a few private parties in Russia, and the RM do drink, but IMO not more than AM in my American peer group of golfers, neighbors and businessmen.  There differences in drinking style:  RM tend to pace themselves more than AM, eat more food while drinking, and drink for the joy of it.

4.   75% of the single RW I met in the MOB parade would limit their consumption of alcohol to a glass of wine (sometimes only sweet wine and I understand how one would be enough).  Were they trying to impress me, or were they simply reacting to bad experiences with their abusive ex-husband (the latter was true in multiple cases)?  I was in the DR at New Year’s Eve party and drinking tequila shots at a table with seven Russians.  My ex-fiancée whisked me out of there under the lure that she wanted to make love on the beach at midnight, and I believe it actually was pretense as she was alarmed by my tequila (her ex- was a “beautiful man” but an alcoholic and she was still saddened by how alcohol abuse ruined her married life).

[Misha]

Oh I give up 

Fine, Russian men don't drink any more than North American and Europeans. Like Sandro, they just enjoy a glass of wine before supper and a snifter of fine scotch in the evenings that they spend doting upon their wives, trying to relax from their stressful days, smoking one cigarette so they can continue unwinding. At social gatherings, they never drink more than a few ounces of fine vodka, only as it enhances the taste of the fine caviar.

Also, Russian villages are beautiful utopias where Russian men peacefully toil in the fields, drinking nothing stronger than a bottle of beer, preferably Baltica 0. Every Sunday, they lead their families to the nearest Russian Orthodox Church.

In the city, the men in the cities would never dream of having a mistress, and the rich Russian men never, ever, sponsor a younger woman as they believe in the sanctity of marriage.

And, of course, Russia has few shelters for abused women, not because the state is indifferent, but because Russian men are all so wonderful that there is no need for such things. All those women killed by their husbands, were not murdered, but rather accidentally crushed by their partners who loved them too much to control themselves.

I thought that I had been going to going to Russia all these years, but I guess I must have been flying to Moscow, Idaho and witnessing the degradation of life in America. 
 

[Gator]

Misha,

I respect your opinion as I hope you do mine.  Neither of us has a comprehensive perspective.

Also, you and I may have different internal gauges.  I probably have accidentally spilled more beer in my life than you have purposefully drunk, so what is abuse to you could be norm to me.

[GoodOlBoy]

My ex-fiancée whisked me out of there under the lure that she wanted to make love on the beach at midnight, and I believe it actually was pretense as she was alarmed by my tequila (her ex- was a “beautiful man” but an alcoholic and she was still saddened by how alcohol abuse ruined her married life).

No offense intended Gator, but....... I am surprised you were not more sensitive to your Fiancee's personal feelings, considering her history (another drunken Russian husband).

[Misha]

Also, you and I may have different internal gauges.  I probably have accidentally spilled more beer in my life than you have purposefully drunk, so what is abuse to you could be norm to me.

Here is a story from a faraway place.

I have a good friend in Russia. She is in her early 40s. Has two beautiful daughters.

She divorced her husband after he became an alcoholic, found a mistress, sold the family apartment when my friend was in the hospital and had a horrible accident (while drunk) losing everything. But, keep in mind that it is another one of these bitter women. Damn them with their high expectations

Close to two years ago, it seems that he was trying to quit drinking. He called my friend sober and said that he wanted to meet with her and try to be a better father. For some reason, he hit the bottle and invited over a female who is also an alcoholic. When she showed up, he had already passed out. Wanting some loving, she tied it up when he was sleeping (this is what she allegedly told his relatives). The next morning, they found him dead. Blood clot to the brain or heart. Take your pick.

This is just one example. I can start giving you others. Drunk men falling off tractors and being crushed to death in their twenties and thirties. Men who good families, nice apartments and lost it all because of drinking. Etc...

Sorry Gator, I grew up with a number of alcoholic relatives and alcoholic neighbors on the farm. I know a thing or two about drinking too much. What I saw in Canada does not compare to anything I have seen in Russia.

[Gator]

GOB and Misha,

All of us differ except that we are somehow attracted to RW, who also vary widely. 

Our past history has much to do with who we are today.  It is difficult to not project our past history on someone new, especially if the experiences were traumatic and we see some similarities.

Nevertheless, in a new relationship I try to give the other person the benefit of the doubt yet keep my eyes open.  My ex-fiancee did not do that.   It was New Year's Eve!!!  And the most I had before that on any day at our DR resort was maybe 4-5 drinks (beer, wine or cocktail). 

She would jump to conclusions in other matters too.  We are not together, and I have found much better.

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, you shocked me with all this honest info about yourself. I am really disappointed and sad.    ..........

Well Nastya, you shouldn't, why on earth sad ? I'm perfectly happy with what and how I am, smoking and moderately drinking. Unless you're sad because I never beat a woman ?

However, your 'disappointed' reaction doesn't surprise me. I've long observed that it's VERY typical of religious people with 'high moral standards' to be absolutely convinced that their own 'view of the world' is the ONLY acceptable view, to the point of utter boredom for more open-minded listeners.

IMO, this 'holier than thou' conviction has caused more grief in world history than good, witness the millions who have been forcibly converted to some religion (Christian, Moslem, whatever), with recalcitrants being treated rather harshly, if practical (see the whole interesting subject of syncretism, i.e. 'If you can't lick them, sort of join them'). I don't try to convince anybody to follow my habits, and I appreciate the same consideration from others. As I said already, I know of no atheist or agnostic missionaries, which for me is in itself a praiseworthy attitude.

We have and old saying here: Vivi e lascia vivere (Live and let live) . I think there's a LOT of wisdom in that .

[Misha]

I try to give the other person the benefit of the doubt yet keep my eyes open. 

And, where exactly do I disagree with this? Again, not all Russian men drink, but too many do. And, of those good fathers in Russia, sadly many leave behind orphans because of that drinking.

[SANDRO43]

I would agree, however I would not encourage Sandro to start quaffing a bottle of Troynoy cologne before, during or after a meal.

No danger of that, I may like aromatic drinks occasionally, but there's a limit, Armpit Fragrance is not exactly to my taste .