Specific Ukrainian Woman

[Ade]

She always has a third option which is to tell the agency where to go 

Uh huh, and I guess that would be an option for those that already have a comfortable lifestyle. Not everyone has that luxury unfortunately.

[Misha]

Uh huh, and I guess that would be an option for those that already have a comfortable lifestyle. Not everyone has that luxury unfortunately.

Again, we all have options. My wife, for example, worked two jobs in Russia and did contract work on the side (graphic design). We met on our first date at 10pm because she worked until five and then was tutoring another woman on how to use a piece of software from 6 until 9. She did not "already have a comfortable lifestyle" but worked very hard to achieve her goals. Some women in Russia are more than happy to take an easy way out, but too many WM are too naive to understand this IMHO and that is why there is a steady stream of men ready to be scammed or treated as patsies.

[Ade]

Again, we all have options. My wife, for example, worked two jobs in Russia and did contract work on the side (graphic design). We met on our first date at 10pm because she worked until five and then was tutoring another woman on how to use a piece of software from 6 until 9. She did not "already have a comfortable lifestyle" but worked very hard to achieve her goals. Some women in Russia are more than happy to take an easy way out, but too many WM are too naive to understand this IMHO and that is why there is a steady stream of men ready to be scammed or treated as patsies.

Yes, well, not everyone has the wherewithal or opportunity to work two jobs and to tutor people. Yes, for others, it's a morally dubious additional income that they don't need or can earn in other ways but I will say this; it's very easy to stand on a moral high ground built on a foundation of a large disposable income.

[Daveman]

Well it is a simple fact that some people do turn to the path of least resistance to make a buck which usually leads to questionable or even illegal routes to income.

Now, I can certainly understand how there could be sincere ladies caught up in the process, e.g., the agency telling her that this is the way to meet a foreign man, if you want to meet a man, then you must do as we say because we know what we are doing.  She joins  the agency -- later understanding the real scoop, wanting out of it but the agency will not remove her profile. I would guess the determination between gullible newbie and a lack of integrity would boil down to whether or not she is an active participant or a profile frozen in time with a ghost writer/speaker in the background.  

Too much time and effort, IMO, involved in separating the wheat from the chaff unless you can catch the same lady on another site and communicate with her without going through the 'pay to play' features of that or any website.  Going over there would probably clear up any doubt but that's an expensive and time consuming verification process.

There are too many other alternatives for meeting a sincere lady to waste time with this nonsense.

[Misha]

Yes, well, not everyone has the wherewithal or opportunity to work two jobs and to tutor people.

Yes, because it means having to work  

Yes, for others, it's a morally dubious additional income that they don't need or can earn in other ways but I will say this; it's very easy to stand on a moral high ground built on a foundation of a large disposable income.

Sorry, I see this terribly insulting to the millions of RW who do not have a "large disposable income" and yet every day go to work mopping floors, standing all day selling goods in their jobs as "shop girls," etc... The fact of the matter is that yes it is easier posing for photos and making easy money, than actually having to work, but tens of millions of RW seem to manage working every day in real jobs as they truly work to feed their families.

[Ade]

Yes, because it means having to work  

Sorry, I see this terribly insulting to the millions of RW who do not have a "large disposable income" and yet every day go to work mopping floors, standing all day selling goods in their jobs as "shop girls," etc... The fact of the matter is that yes it is easier posing for photos and making easy money, than actually having to work, but tens of millions of RW seem to manage working every day in real jobs as they truly work to feed their families.

You are missing the point. Well, several points actually. One is that just because someone wants to work doesn't necessarily mean they can get it. The second point is that when your income is very low (even if working several jobs) an additional source, however small, can be extremely difficult to ignore.

And I'm guessing you've never been in a position of abject poverty so you are arguing from a position of absolute ignorance; don't be too quick to judge as I guess most people would take the "easy" option if their position were desperate enough.

And yes, your wife was well off in comparison to some as she had the opportunities available to her so she wasn't so desperate.

But whatever dude, go ahead and make your sweeping generalisations that all RW are able to get multiple jobs and earn enough so that easy money can be ignored.

[GoodOlBoy]

And I'm guessing you've never been in a position of abject poverty so you are arguing from a position of absolute ignorance; don't be too quick to judge as I guess most people would take the "easy" option if their position were desperate enough.

I have heard this same nonsense out of the mouths of prostitutes. 


GOB

[Misha]

And I'm guessing you've never been in a position of abject poverty so you are arguing from a position of absolute ignorance; don't be too quick to judge as I guess most people would take the "easy" option if their position were desperate enough.

God, I have to apologize in advance for this comment, but you are an arrogant ass When I was growing up as a child, there are a few times we had no money, zero, zilch, nothing. Yet, we never robbed any banks or found "easy" options. We simply worked harder. And, the fact of the matter, this applies to most Russians as well. If they don't have money, they will find a patch of soil and grow potatoes or keep a goat or work that much harder to make money.

And yes, your wife was well off in comparison to some as she had the opportunities available to her so she wasn't so desperate.

And, do you really think that the Zhanna's of the world don't have other opportunities? Do you really think they are desperately hungry? If you do, I have to say that you are immensely gullible. They had the opportunities my wife did, perhaps even more opportunities, but they simply chose the easier option. Working is hard, you may even break a nail.

But whatever dude, go ahead and make your sweeping generalisations that all RW are able to get multiple jobs and earn enough so that easy money can be ignored.

Sweeping generalization? It is called fact that virtually all women work in Russia. Many have multiple jobs. If they do not have a second job, then they have a large garden growing potatoes. My sweeping generalization is that most RW are very decent and extremely hard-working women. Only a small minority opt for the easy money.

[Simoni]

I am not going to put the bad mouth on any forum members's wife, BUT sorry, this whole thing about FSU women taking pictures with candy and flowers and Agencies using them to "milk" money from "stupid" men (multiple times) qualifies for what I like to call the contributing "Sleaze Factor" of this whole process.

GOB, the examples we have been giving are from bad agencies.  Good dating agencies have real girls and really deliver gifts when men send them. And if they get a scammer in their midst, they kick them out.

Don't lump all fsu girls together in one basket.

[Ade]

God, I have to apologize in advance for this comment, but you are an arrogant ass

Classy.

When I was growing up as a child, there are a few times we had no money, zero, zilch, nothing. Yet, we never robbed any banks or found "easy" options. We simply worked harder.

So simple. Just work harder. My mother had 3 jobs at one time and with 2 of us kids to feed I'm sure she would have jumped at the chance to make some easy money that as far as she was concerned hurt no one. A little lie maybe that would help feed her children. I would not have thought any worse of her either.

And, the fact of the matter, this applies to most Russians as well. If they don't have money, they will find a patch of soil and grow potatoes or keep a goat or work that much harder to make money.

And of course, ignore the easy cash.

And, do you really think that the Zhanna's of the world don't have other opportunities?

I've no idea about this Zhanna; what I have issues with is your and others sweeping generalizations that all women that do this are morally bankrupt and lazy and that they all have plenty of other options like planting potatoes. 

Do you really think they are desperately hungry?

No, actually I don't think they are all desperately hungry but I certainly don't think all the women are lazy and morally bankrupt for doing this.

Sweeping generalization? It is called fact that virtually all women work in Russia. Many have multiple jobs. If they do not have a second job, then they have a large garden growing potatoes. My sweeping generalization is that most RW are very decent and extremely hard-working women. Only a small minority opt for the easy money.

I think you have a strange view of life if you think opting for "easy money" always means that people are lazy and not decent. Must be very comfortable living in such a black and white world.

[Misha]

And of course, ignore the easy cash.

Well, some people seek out the "easy cash" 

I've no idea about this Zhanna; what I have issues with is your and others sweeping generalizations that all women that do this are morally bankrupt and lazy and that they all have plenty of other options like planting potatoes. 

Okay, I will generalize. In my opinion, a woman who prefers to pose for men on web cams and lie to men and lead them on so they can spend more money on what they know as a fantasy are at best morally suspect. I for one, would avoid such a woman like the plague. Likewise, I avoided women who preferred not to work and be maintained by a sponsor. Fortunately, the great majority of ordinary women in Russia are hard-working and decent women. Call it a sweeping generalization that most women in Russia have options and in recent years could find jobs other than wooing a foreign "лох" (feel free to ask your girlfriend what this means).

No, actually I don't think they are all desperately hungry but I certainly don't think all the women are lazy and morally bankrupt for doing this.

Well, you have  a right to believe what you will, and I have a right to believe that you are wrong.

I think you have a strange view of life if you think opting for "easy money" always means that people are lazy and not decent. Must be very comfortable living in such a black and white world.

No, it is quite hard. You have to work and make sacrifices. As they say, the low road is always the easiest road to take.

[Daveman]

Well, some people seek out the "easy cash" 

Okay, I will generalize. In my opinion, a woman who prefers to pose for men on web cams and lie to men and lead them on so they can spend more money on what they know as a fantasy are at best morally suspect. I for one, would avoid such a woman like the plague. Likewise, I avoided women who preferred not to work and be maintained by a sponsor. Fortunately, the great majority of ordinary women in Russia are hard-working and decent women. Call it a sweeping generalization that most women in Russia have options and in recent years could find jobs that wooing a foreign "лох" (feel free to ask your girlfriend what this means).

Well, you have  a right to believe what you will, and I have a right to believe that you are wrong.

No, it is quite hard. You have to work and make sacrifices. As they say, the low road is always the easiest road to take.

Personally, I think this is a match made in heaven.  the foreign lokh + the ones who will bleed them dry.  Most of those idiots are using the web cams for their own, um, personal gratification so hey, that's a win/win situation - both obtaining mutual satisfaction.  I have zero problem with that.  Let 'em all have at it.

Newbies come on here to ask about it. That infers to me that they do have an interest which goes beyond the keyboard wanker syndrome and just don't yet have the experience to immediately put things into proper perspective like the others who have been around for a while can easily do.  The real ass chapper lies in their almost unilateral ability to cling to the fantasy against all reason.  But then again, I guess much of this pursuit does lie on the emotional rather than logical plane.

[Misha]

Personally, I think this is a match made in heaven.  the foreign lokh + the ones who will bleed them dry. 

I am not saying they are not satisfying a need. Drug dealers also seek easy money and serve a "need" but I would have avoided dating and marrying drug dealers as well. Call me a moral stick in the mud; I don't care. But, at the same time, I won't have much sympathy for the man who marries a woman who was less than morally upright and then dumps him once her лох has satisfied her needs for a Green Card or more easy money 

[Daveman]

I am not saying they are not satisfying a need. Drug dealers also seek easy money and serve a "need" but I would have avoided dating and marrying drug dealers as well. Call me a moral stick in the mud; I don't care. But, at the same time, I won't have much sympathy for the man who marries a woman who was less than morally upright and then dumps him once her лох has satisfied her needs for a Green Card or more easy money 

Misha, you moral stick in the mud, I'm with you there.  I have very little sympathy or patience really with those who schedule their own train wrecks.  Especially when they play up their victimization role.  Hard lessons learned from self inflicted wounds. 

[Simoni]

I think that both sides in this latest debate here are right---and wrong.

And it is NOT a black and white issue.

On the one hand, you guys who feed the fish  (dishonest dating services) have no sympathy from me.  And when you do go meet that professional dater, be aware that everyone in the agency office is smiling and being polite to you, while making great fun of you in Russian!  Do you really want to be a laughing stock?  Stop feeding the fish.

Now, for those who want to judge others, I'm reminded of the words of the apostle Paul: "Don't judge others because you have not walked in his shoes."

I hope people will really, really consider those words.

[ScottinCrimea]

All of you who have never fudged on their taxes, padded a resume, added an inch or two or subtracted a few pounds on a driver's license or profile, or driven 5 miles over the speed limit feel free to jump in here and judge a situation you have no experience with in strictly back and white terms.

[Simoni]

All of you who have never fudged on their taxes, padded a resume, added an inch or two or subtracted a few pounds on a driver's license or profile, or driven 5 miles over the speed limit feel free to jump in here and judge a situation you have no experience with in strictly back and white terms.

Good post, Scott.

[Misha]

Now, for those who want to judge others, I'm reminded of the words of the apostle Paul: "Don't judge others because you have not walked in his shoes."

I hope people will really, really consider those words.

Don't judge? So men should not judge potential wives and women should not judge potential husbands? Sorry, I did a lot of judging and was not ready to write off everything as being due to difficult circumstance.

[GoodOlBoy]

Sorry, I did a lot of judging and was not ready to write off everything as being due to difficult circumstance.

I agree Misha.

Tough times does not mean you can revert to being an "animal".

And anybody out there thinking about marrying a woman who behaves in such a manner ask yourself this: "What will she do with me, after we are married, if times get tough"? 


GOB

[ScottinCrimea]

I agree Misha.

Tough times does not mean you can revert to being an "animal".


GOB

It depends on how tough the times.  Remember the Donner Party?

[Simoni]

I think that both sides in this latest debate here are right---and wrong.

And it is NOT a black and white issue.

On the one hand, you guys who feed the fish  (dishonest dating services) have no sympathy from me.  And when you do go meet that professional dater, be aware that everyone in the agency office is smiling and being polite to you, while making great fun of you in Russian!  Do you really want to be a laughing stock?  Stop feeding the fish.

Now, for those who want to judge others, I'm reminded of the words of the apostle Paul: "Don't judge others because you have not walked in his shoes."

Don't judge? So men should not judge potential wives and women should not judge potential husbands? Sorry, I did a lot of judging and was not ready to write off everything as being due to difficult circumstance.

Misha, you are TOTALLY missing the context.  This text is from the Bible, and it concerns not judging the actions of others because you have not lived their lives.  It has nothing to do about your context of judging whether you wish to marry someone!

It is about not condemning someone when you have not experienced their life.  If you wish to disagree with the New Testament, then argue that with a higher source.

[Diplomacy]

Isn't marrying a woman, the biggest judgment call for a man?  Use bad judgment about yourself or the woman, it is a good chance at what I deem a bad marriage.

Use good judgment, then you both are better for having the other thier life.  If you find this person, and both of you are committed to compromise.  You have a good chance at what I deem a good marriage. 

I am really at an internal conflict over this topic.  We are judging people all the time on the forum.  Actions causing flags and character issues, IMO is judging.

We are blessed with cognitive thought.  This is reasoning as a collective, through experiences of a larger mass of people.   

The way I see it, like it or not. We have to judge.  First the person asking the questions, then the person the poster asking the questions is interested in, and finally the strategy that might work best for the person.

In respects to FSUW, many of us have walked in the shoes of the person trying to persevere this endeavor. 

In this thread you have a woman that at the very least, a knowing and willing participant.  At the most, fleecing Lox's and works in an environment surrounded by mafia.

I do not believe for one minute, she is actively looking for a husband.  I would be willing to bet, she has had quite a few visits from WM.  Some people on the forums, are IMO condoning that a Lox is getting what he deserves.   

We know nothing about the other men, nor have we seen this girl in action.  I hope a guy that actually went to see her, shows up on the forum.  We are trying to get in the shoes, and to walk in them .

Some of this is a social issue, it is bred from communism.  What is yours is mine, is not a moral issue with some citizens of the FSU.  What about, though shall not steal?  If you pretend you got something, then took money for it.  Tell someone thank you for the candy you gave me.  You are stealing.

If you are chatting with a woman, and giving her the false hopes of a real marriage.  Then you are stealing.  Stealing trust, and hope IMO.

This site is about the 1% that are serious.  Therefore what happens to that 1% Is OUR concern.  As is the whatever % of women in the FSU, that are truly looking for a person they deem as good to marry.


Scott:

For the record, I  have gone over the speed limit.  Never been pulled over though, and I am clean on the rest of the criteria.  Didn't meatloaf say "Two out of three aint Bad"?  Funny though, in that scenario you put a 5 MPH buffer of accepting breaking the law

[Simoni]

Isn't marrying a woman, the biggest judgment call for a man?  Use bad judgment about yourself or the woman, it is a good chance at what I deem a bad marriage.

Yes, but I was talking about being judgmental and saying bad things about someone, not about using good judgement.

Different concepts.

[Misha]

It is about not condemning someone when you have not experienced their life.  If you wish to disagree with the New Testament, then argue that with a higher source.

Well, Simoni, find me the passage that says it is okay to sin just because I am a bit short on cash or desperate. Do the ten commandments have some fine print that I overlooked or does Jesus in the New Testament say "do whatever you feel like, because, hey, life is hard and nobody should be judging you"  :evil:   

[Simoni]

...find me the passage that says it is okay to sin just because I am a bit short on cash or desperate. Do the ten commandments have some fine print that I overlooked or does Jesus in the New Testament say "do whatever you feel like, because, hey, life is hard and nobody should be judging you"  

When I read all the negatives about what people in other countries do or do not do, the Scripture about not judging others popped into my mind. 

And recalling the Scripture in 2 Timothy "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness," I decided to share, hoping it would give us a fresh look at others.  And for some I think it did.

The Scripture I originally quoted is very clear that we all have different life tracks, and who knows how we would do if we walked in another's shoes?

And Scripture also says "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." 

So we are all in this boat together...