Specific Ukrainian Woman

[ScottinCrimea]

Funny though, in that scenario you put a 5 MPH buffer of accepting breaking the law

Hey, I'm a softy, what can I say?   

[OlgaH]

Now, for those who want to judge others, I'm reminded of the words of the apostle Paul: "Don't judge others because you have not walked in his shoes."

I hope people will really, really consider those words.

Simoni, would you be so kind to tell me an exact Epistle of Paul you gave us the quote from.   

It is about not condemning someone when you have not experienced their life.  If you wish to disagree with the New Testament, then argue that with a higher source.

I think when we do not condemn a sin (a crime) and more over we try to justify the sin, we become the sinners even more, we become an accomplice in crime in front of God.

Corinthians (The First Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians)

9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.


How you will remove an immoral person, if you can not make a judgement against sin?

Matthew 7:7-8 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened" (Jesus).

but You shall not kill ... You shall not steal... (Exodus)

Matthew 5:21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.

Violence is violence, after all – who are we to judge?

Killing is killing, after all – who are we to judge?

Nobody is without fault, after all – who are we to judge

Criminals are also victims, after all – who are we to judge?

But if we don't judge, who will? If we don't take the side that is more just and less guilty, who will? If we don't condemn murderers, who will? If we can't distinguish murderers from their victims, who can?

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/4/30/163630.shtml

[OlgaH]

When I read all the negatives about what people in other countries do or do not do, the Scripture about not judging others popped into my mind. 

Maybe in some others countries there is nothing wrong about telling lies and stealing and it is absolutely normal   

Not judging others? How about Jesus judging Pharisees 

Luke Chapter 11
43 Woe to you, Pharisees! For you love the seat of honor in synagogues and the respectful greetings in the marketplaces.

Matthew Chapter 23
24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel!
27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones and every kind of filth.
29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites...
33  You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna? 


 

[Simoni]

There is a difference between Jesus (God) judging and men judging.

I provided that Scripture in one context, and I  think it applies there.

No need to start debating religion; each person should decide these things for themselves.

No more from me on this topic.

[Ade]

Personally, and no offence, but I couldn't give crap about what the bible says. I'm an atheist and the bible means no more to me than the last fantasy novel I read.

This is about empathy, compassion and trying to understand another person's perspective and what may make a basically good person do things which are morally questionable to us. Yes, these people lie, cheat, and steal, things I wouldn't consider doing myself, but then again, I have the luxury of having a nice house, a good car, a large amount of disposable income and many options so it's very easy for my to say this.

Given a similar environment and circumstances my guess is that even the most sanctimonious preachers here would be equally capable of these minor acts. Protest as much as you like but humanity is the same the world over, given enough incentive you'd lower your moral standards and do what you need to survive as well as possible; I'd guess those incentives wouldn't have be as drastic as you'd like to think either. 

[ScottinCrimea]

Until someone has actually been in a position where these issues become relevant, they have no idea what they are willing to do and what compromises they are willing to make.  Posters here can pontificate all they want, but until they have actually been in some of the situations described, they really have no clue.

In an earlier post I mentioned the Donner party. I'm sure that had the issue of cannibalism been brought up prior to their experience they would have expressed disgust and total denial that they would ever consider such behavior, but ultimately they did what they felt they had to do to survive, and have been condemned ever since for this by those who have never been placed in this position.

We in the West live a somewhat pampered life in that we have never had to deal with many of the conditions that present themselves in other parts of the world.  Are we really in a position to judge those who face these on a daily basis?

The Bible is classic literature and even those who are atheists can benefit from its teachings.  Even if they only consider it on the level of the teachings of Socrates rather than as a Holy text, they can not ignore the wisdom it contains.  Even if one doesn't believe that the text is inspired of God, they must admit that it provides a darned good guideline in how to lead a productive life.  Inspired or not, it is the combined wisdom of the ages.

[Diplomacy]

We have a saying for a reason.  Desperate times, make for desperate measures.  I understand that, and I am trying to put it in context.  For me, I do put myself in situations where desperation has reared into reality.

I used to do survivor trips in nature.  With bare minimum supplies.  Looking back, I am done with that phase.  It did serve a purpose, I know what it feels like to be fighting to survive.

Classic man verses nature, and yes it was my idea of a good time. 

I had to eat crickets, I just had several days of not being able to find safe food.  I would have eaten worms if need be. 

Right and wrong, does take a backseat to surviving.  I do also understand that there is a right and wrong way to get to that point. 

That is why the discussion needs to take individuals into account.  We are leaving out the factor of FSU pride.  It is the lox factor that deems this action acceptable, if not celebrated amongst certain people in the FSU. 

A girl like this example is considered clever by her peers.  The more she can get out of a Lox, the higher her status amongst a certain segment of their society.

If we were talking about a woman with 3 children.  Who's husband was gone one day.  Has aging parents, to care for and the parents only have a paltry pension.  This woman I can understand taking the money.  Now, this woman who chooses not to take the money, but does try to find a good husband.  I would say, she is a better catch for someone.

[Gator]

Personally, and no offence, but I couldn't give crap about what the bible says. I'm an atheist and the bible means no more to me than the last fantasy novel I read.

This is about empathy, compassion and trying to understand another person's perspective and what may make a basically good person do things which are morally questionable to us.

These two statements conflict.  You imply that you don't care about Christianity, yet your words "empathy," "compassion," and "understand" are at the heart of Christianity.   It has been decades since I attended a church service, yet permanently imprinted in my youth is the doctrine of love and forgiveness.  You seem to subscribe the same.  

...given enough incentive you'd lower your moral standards and do what you need to survive as well as possible

I agree with this attitude to some extent, yet it poses a problem.   It makes it easy for a man to dismiss as cultural differences certain behavior that he would not accept in an AW.  

Moral standards differ from man to man (and from RW to RW).  The point is to understand a RW's behavior and to decide whether such is something you could live with.  

If a RW were capable of doing something I did not like, my primary concern would not be the specific incident but extrapolating it to what else she could capable of doing.  

Then again, no one is perfect.  And people can improve when placed in different circumstances.

[Misha]

We have a saying for a reason.  Desperate times, make for desperate measures. 

Yes, but how do you define desperate? Once again, the majority, no the large majority, of Russians get by through work, more work and yet more work. 

I am starting to come to the conclusion that men deserve the women they get. If they can't understand that there are good RW who value work and don't become professional daters, then they deserve to be scammed, played and eventually marry women who will take them for all they are worth once she has a her green card 

[Diplomacy]

Yes, but how do you define desperate? Once again, the majority, no the large majority, of Russians get by through work, more work and yet more work. 

I am starting to come to the conclusion that men deserve the women they get. If they can't understand that there are good RW who value work and don't become professional daters, then they deserve to be scammed, played and eventually marry women who will take them for all they are worth once she has a her green card 

Then you would be supporting Lox as an acceptable behavior.  Or at the least understanding how it has merit.

Of course there are woman, that would never do such a thing.  Being capable of something and not doing something, is a testament to ones character. 

Realizing such a theory lox, and not being interested in a woman that condones such behavior. IMO, is a testament of my character.  Not caring to take such realities into consideration, and understanding the actions of a woman that would do such things.  Then you are really playing with fire.

I would rather see people of similar character find each other.  Lay out the road map of scenarios.  If someone on the forum, finds themselves in a situation that is not good.  Learned from the posts I have made.  Well great, if they go forward anyways.  Well, I tried.

[Misha]

Then you would be supporting Lox as an acceptable behavior.  Or at the least understanding how it has merit.

Of course there are woman, that would never do such a thing.  Being capable of something and not doing something, is a testament to ones character. 

Well, it seems some men are unable or unwilling to distinguish women with character or those without. I confess that I am starting to feel that fools deserve to be taken for every penny and left a babbling heart-broken mess 

So, so the next лох that whines how he was scammed or dumped after she got her GC, I will be of a mind to say: "You were likely an idiot who believed that all the less-than-ethical behavior of your gf/fiancee was 'cultural' or a question of 'desperation' so quit your whining and take what is coming to you as you certainly deserve it." 

[Diplomacy]

I got a lecture on Lox.   It is no good women, who do not good things.  Who are married and have a boyfriend.  Or who have multiple boyfriends for different purposes. 

Using such terms as educated as you be, is doing not good.  Tell good WM, that there be bad WM too. 

God to person choices.  Person make bad or good choice.  I hope god be teach people make bad desionz, good lesson.

OH, and FSU is American term.  I tried to blanket it as a cultural thing.  During Soviet times, and Ukraine are better descriptions.

That is the perspective from the other side of the debate.

[OlgaH]

There is a difference between Jesus (God) judging and men judging.

As you know Jesus came to teach us by his own example  

I gave a quote from the The First Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians where he said about two judgments: judgments by church (community or society) and judgments by God. If a person doesn't want to live according to the church's rules and commandments , Paul said: "Remove the wicked man from among yourselves". But before to remove that wicked man from the church - community, the community must make its judgment about a black sheep.

Here another example of the judgment by community :
Matthew Chapter 18
15  "If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector

If you call not to judge a woman who tries to get easy money by the use of lies or  even participating in lies because she doesn't have a comfortable life,  so why you condemn and judge the dating agencies that get their easy money tricking their clients? The owners of such agencies are also humans as that woman, most likely they also don't have a comfortable life and can not find a good job (two or three) and such way to get easy cash is only one way to make a living. If you get a letter form an unknown person with request to send her money for her ill mother, don't judge that person, you don't know about her/his uncomfortable life and being a good Christian living according to the Gospels you should not refuse that person, because:

Matthew 5
42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.  

Will you, being a good Christian, send that unknown woman the money for her ill mother?  

Are you ready to live according to  Matthew? (Chapter 6)
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them.

Are you ready to be perfect and have treasure in heaven? "go, sell what you have and give to the poor" (Matthew Chapter 19)

Everything in our life is relative and even the Gospels have relative truth.

When a healthy man or woman in rags asks for the money on the street, I look at them and yes I make my own judgment such people doesn't want to work, they doesn't want to clean a cowshed or sweep streets, they prefer easy cash on the streets and I'm not going to give them the money I earned working.

Some people who don't have any professional skills work as unskilled laborer every day even for small money, grow potatoes and sell it as additional earnings,  and some people using computers try to get easy cash telling lies and tricking other people.  

I provided that Scripture in one context, and I  think it applies there.

No need to start debating religion; each person should decide these things for themselves.

Sorry, but I disagree about such applying and I also make my own decisions through the Scriptures.    It would be nice if you give me some more information (a Paul's Epistle) about that Paul's quote, of course if you know  

No more from me on this topic.

Are you taking your marbles and going home      Whatever  

[Ade]

I'm curious; was my last post removed because it was considered offensive or was there just a glitch in the forum?

[Gator]

SJ,

Post it again.

[ScottinCrimea]

.

Well, it seems some men are unable or unwilling to distinguish women with character or those without. I confess that I am starting to feel that fools deserve to be taken for every penny and left a babbling heart-broken mess  

So, so the next лох that whines how he was scammed or dumped after she got her GC, I will be of a mind to say: "You were likely an idiot who believed that all the less-than-ethical behavior of your gf/fiancee was 'cultural' or a question of 'desperation' so quit your whining and take what is coming to you as you certainly deserve it."  

Misha, no offense, but many here are discussing situations and ideas that are worth considering. For some reason you see only black and white.  Either the woman is 100% pure or else she has beliefs or values that you don't agree with and then she is an evil lowlife scamming GCG.  I've noticed this tendency in you in other threads, where a reasonable discussion is taking place and you try to turn it into an all or nothing debate.

Can't you see any merit to the discussion of "gray" areas (for lack of a better term)?  Can't a woman be on a slightly lower lever than Mother Teresa and still be okay?

[Ade]

SJ,

Post it again.

I can't remember exactly what I said, um, there was a reply to you that those things were basic human attributes and were not created by Christianity and a reply to Scott that I thought the bible was as much hateful as it was wise. It's not important except that I'm curious if it was considered offensive enough to be removed. On the other hand, this discussion on religion has little to do with topic at hand anyway.

[Misha]

For some reason you see only black and white.

From what I gather, the men who are burnt in the process are those who insisted on seeing shades of gray where things were clearly black and white  :evil: 

[Gator]

I can't remember exactly what I said, um, there was a reply to you that those things were basic human attributes

Humane, yes.   Human, no - considering all the turmoils of the world.

and were not created by Christianity

For sure, Christianity does not hold the copyright. 

On the other hand, this discussion on religion has little to do with topic at hand anyway.

100% in agreement.  A thread usually declines rapidly when religion is introduced.

[GoodOlBoy]

A thread usually declines rapidly when religion is introduced.

Yes, my Father always told me there was 3 things that you should never discuss in polite company: SEX, POLITICS and RELIGION. 


GOB

[ScottinCrimea]

From what I gather, the men who are burnt in the process are those who insisted on seeing shades of gray where things were clearly black and white  :evil: 

No disagreement with you here.  I think the key word here is "clearly".

[OlgaH]

Protest as much as you like but humanity is the same the world over, given enough incentive you'd lower your moral standards and do what you need to survive as well as possible; I'd guess those incentives wouldn't have be as drastic as you'd like to think either. 

Everyone has his own moral standards.

One person being in a very difficult financial situation will agree to clean restrooms in Walmart, but never steal, other person will became a swindler and scammer to get fast and easy cash, other person will sell drugs near schools, other person will kill just to take somebody' wallet... so many possibilities to survive...
   

[SANDRO43]

It's not important except that I'm curious if it was considered offensive enough to be removed.

SJ, I understand that some major site maintenance was under way yesterday night, European time (Dan may clarify this). I, too, lost a couple of posts, and RWD was all but unreachable for an hour or so .

[Diplomacy]

There is a couple issues IMO.  The first is for some to speak in absolutes.  The second is the woman in this case does not appear to have children.  Does speak English, and by all accounts is well educated.

She is smart enough to know, she can make more money scamming people on the internet.  Then she could making an honest living. 

I agree that there is a fairly clear case in this situation. 

Different factors, would cause me to rethink my position. 

If you take into consideration, say 20 men sending 1 letter a week, and that costs $4 a letter.  That is $80 a week.  Then say you can be on webcam for 20 hours a week, and chat with multiple men at once,  40 cents a minute for webcam and $10 an hour for chat.

$320 month mail
$200 20 hours of webcam
$100 month 20 hours of chat
$100 month gifts revenue
$49. month membership Platinum (To get this lower price per credit)
 $769 Total Split $384.50

Say you get a WM there, engaged and he supports you for $1,000 a month.  Spends money on you while you are there, buys you a wardrobe upgrade or 2.  You do not even to work a real job.  A teacher makes $180 a month.

This is only one guy.  Of course the real good ones could be playing with multiple irons in the fire.  If she can keep multiple chats going, the revenue keep going up.  If a guy does not commit first trip, you could play a while with waiting to see how you feel.  So many ways that this can get played out, and does.

[kgh]

Hi All,

I know I'm new here.  I've maybe done 2 or 3 posts in 2 years of being a member.  I'm a person who will read all the posts on a 15+ page thread thinking I have comments or questions about the initial subject.  Then a few major subject changes later I feel as though my comments or questions are inappropriate and untimely.

My main question is when does a subject come off thread enough that a new thread is started?

I'm not trying to poke anyone in the eye.  I haven't brought this up before because I truly value the experience and insight of the members here, but the scripture quotes is a bit over the top for me.  And probably more appropriate on a different type of forum.


Kenny