Saturday night disco Kiev

[Jack]

 

[Erwin]

 ???

[KenC]

Jack,
Thanks for sharing.  I know you always get a lot of flak about posting photos here, but know there are many of us that appreciate the insight into the "real" Ukraine.  Now, I admit that the side of Ukraine you expose here may not be for everyone, but that does not change the fact that it is there.  I see nothing wrong in just having some fun.  I hope your trip is a huge success.
KenC

[Admin]

Jack,

As you now know, I removed the string of posts that referenced prostitution - and especially your comment about another member's wife. For the record, that sort of thing is NOT acceptable, for any reason.

As for this being a "Trip Report" - the mere posting of photos in a night club hardly qualifies as a "Trip Report" - and while I am, as much as anyone, appreciative of some nice 'eye candy' - the fact is, posting photos of that sort with no narrative is an invitation to comments such as those now deleted.

- Dan

[Jack]

Hello Ken, again, nice to hear from you.  Seems someone did not like my previous reply.

Ken this is one of today's better Kiev clubs.  These photos are very much typical at what you will see at EVERY current hot disco and club. This is Kiev, THIS IS Ukraine.

[Jack]

Dan, how was my reference to Shadow's wife ANY different from his reference to my Anya?  And the answert is Dan, NONE!   Period, none! 

[Admin]

Dan, how was my reference to Shadow's wife ANY different from his reference to my Anya?  And the answert is Dan, NONE!   Period, none! 

Wrong Jack!

If you have some special lady named 'Anya' that is NOT the least bit clear from your posts - nor your profile.

That someone would view those photos and conclude that at least a couple of the women in the photos are pros, or semi-pros, is a pretty natural conclusion - ESPECIALLY, with your lack of narrative to support any of the photos.

I feel 1000% certain that Shadow would NEVER intentionally insult any woman that is engaged, or married, to one of our members - but you did. That is a world of difference.

- Dan

[Jack]

Dan it is not often a foreigner is allowed to bring his camera into any Ukraine nightclub. And that in itself takes some doing I assure you. These photos would have to be something new to men or women who have not visited a popular Ukraine night club, and this is what they would see, this IS typical of any and all good popular Ukraine nightclubs.  


Dan, you will see a photo of this same Anya on the gallery images of when she visited me in Dnepropetrovsk. It has been up for months.  You seem to not have any problems with Shadow claiming these were prostitutes Dan.  It WAS Shadow who brought up prostitutes Dan.  Just curious as to how he knew these women were hookers.

[KenC]

Wrong Jack!

If you have some special lady named 'Anya' that is NOT the least bit clear from your posts - nor your profile.

That someone would view those photos and conclude that at least a couple of the women in the photos are pros, or semi-pros, is a pretty natural conclusion - ESPECIALLY, with your lack of narrative to support any of the photos.

I feel 1000% certain that Shadow would NEVER intentionally insult any woman that is engaged, or married, to one of our members - but you did. That is a world of difference.

- Dan

Dan,
So it would be OK to call a woman a prostitute if she was unattached to a member here?  Sorry, but Shadow's comment was uncalled for and offensive.  That one of the women in the photos happens to be Jack's girlfriend just makes it more embarrassing for Shadow. 
KenC

[Admin]

Dan it is not often a foreigner is allowed to bring his camera into any Ukraine nightclub. And that in itself takes some doing I assure you. These photos would have to be something new to men or women who have not visited a popular Ukraine night club, and this is what they would see, this IS typical of any and all good popular Ukraine nightclubs.  


Dan, you will see a photo of this same Anya on the gallery images of when she visited me in Dnepropetrovdsk. It has been up for months.  You seem to not have any problems with Shadow claiming these were prostitutes Dan.  It WAS Shadow who brought up prostates Dan.  Just curious as to how he knows this.

Jack,

I've traveled a LOT, and lived in foreign countries. Was just looking through my photos the other night as I was digitizing a bunch of APS and 35mm negatives.

The question of "prostitute" gets a bit blurry at times - in that, there are some gals who are NOT full-time prostitutes, but they will occasionally take money for sex from someone they would not consider as a long-term partner. Similarly, there are gals in the FSU who seek 'sponsorship' - which is not unlike the fundamentals of the same type transaction as a prostitute.

My point is this - when I saw those photos, I noticed they are a lot like some of the places I have visited in Ukraine - and in Jakarta, and in Manila, and (for that matter) in Nuernberg.

My reaction was that there are a mix of girls in the photos - and they probably range from some 'nice' girls, to some who are professional or semi-professional (as in paid transactions in return for sex).

Do you know all the girls personally? Can you personally attest there is not a pro or semi-pro among them? If so - then it would alter my initial reaction - but, of course, you would have had to WRITE SOMETHING for me to know that.

In terms of Anya, your profile gives no hint to anyone of any 'commitment' on your part. If it did, my bet is you would have had a different reaction. That you posted some photos in the gallery does NOT give anyone the hint that you are committed in any way. You have posted dozens of photos in the past.

Once again - my point is that Shadow would NOT, I am certain, have intentionally insulted any lady that is involved with one of our members - but you did. That is just not right Jack - and it won't be allowed.

- Dan

[Admin]

Dan,
So it would be OK to call a woman a prostitute if she was unattached to a member here?  Sorry, but Shadow's comment was uncalled for and offensive.  That one of the women in the photos happens to be Jack's girlfriend just makes it more embarrassing for Shadow. 
KenC

Ken,

Jack's profile gives no hint that he is involved with anyone. I probably know Jack as well as anyone, and I did not put 2+2 together in terms of Anya.

Further, posting the photos with no narrative - particularly, THOSE photos - and it is tantamount to an open invitation to criticism.

I had the same reaction Shadow did. I saw the photos and thought there were some pros and semi-pros in the mix. Big deal?!?

That he made a comment without knowing that a lady whom Jack is now at least *somewhat* attached to - is not Shadow's fault. The mere addition of a comment or two by Jack would probably have prevented this eruption.

- Dan

[Gator]

Back to the photos

Interesting photos, especially the dyev checking if she forgot to wear her panties.

Ah, to be 19 again.  Aren't these kids!?  What is the age group?

[Jack]

Dan of the six ladies whose photos are posted, I do know four of them.  I wonder which of these four ladies might be the hookers Shadow was referring to.   You are absolutely 100% correct in that I cannot tell you for sure that the other two ladies are not hookers but Dan, clubs, disco's they do develop reputations.  Hookers go to places where men looking to buy sex can find hookers, this is NOT the case with this club, as I know 100%.  Sure these two ladies I do not know could be hookers, although I doubt it, but I wonder how does Shadow know they are hookers.

Regarding our profiles, I have tried to see if their was an option for me to indicate my interest's (and dating) Anya in Kiev, and Vlada in Kiev. The lady number 9252a, this is Vlada, a lady I also have seen for several months. Yea, it was interesting Saturday night but that's another story that will not be told here.  I do not see Dan where on my profile to list Helen in Lugansk, or Katya, or the other ladies I date Dan.  As I have told you many times Dan, I do not have the feelings for marriage in my heart and I date.  Again I do not see how or where in the profile section I am to indicate this or the women I am seeing.


Gator, there were men there from 18 to 65.  I can send you many photos of men who are 35, 45, 55 and 65 who are in this club if you would like, but personally I would rather not take the time. But maybe in the next day or two I will.

[William3rd]

Why is there all of this talk about prostitutes? Seems like a tempest in a teapot.

[daveyj]

Can I clarify what is/is not considered to be offensive on the board?

So as I understand it is acceptable to make snide, derogatory comments about a woman who works as a prostitute...?
but only provided she is not in a committed relationship with a board member?

Personally, I think ALL women deserve respect.
But to each their own...

ps.  William3rd, you missed the deleted posts.

[Admin]

Dan of the six ladies whose photos are posted, I do know four of them.  I wonder which of these four ladies might be the hookers Shadow was referring to.   You are absolutely 100% correct in that I cannot tell you for sure that the other two ladies are not hookers but Dan, clubs, disco's they do develop reputations.  Hookers go to places where men looking to buy sex can find hookers, this is NOT the case with this club, as I know 100%.  Sure these two ladies I do not know could be hookers, although I doubt it, but I wonder how does Shadow know they are hookers.

Regarding our profiles, I have tried to see if their was an option for me to indicate my interest's (and dating) Anya in Kiev, and Vlada in Kiev. The lady number 9252a, this is Vlada, a lady I also have seen for several months. Yea, it was interesting Saturday night but that's another story that will not be told here.  I do not see Dan where on my profile to list Helen in Lugansk, or Katya, or the other ladies I date Dan.  As I have told you many times Dan, I do not have the feelings for marriage in my heart and I date.  Again I do not see how or where in the profile section I am to indicate this or the women I am seeing.


Gator, there were men there from 18 to 65.  I can send you many photos of men who are 35, 45, 55 and 65 who are in this club if you would like, but personally I would rather not take the time. But maybe in the next day or two I will.

OK - then for the record:

* It should come across as no surprise to anyone that popular night clubs in Kyiv will have their fair share of pros or semi-pros - and it is possible your photos included that. No big deal.
* You accept that you are not involved with any one lady at the moment. You are 'playing the field' and while one of those ladies you are playing the field with is depicted in your photos - there is nothing in your profile that would allow anyone to know you were involved in any way with any of those ladies.
* If you wanted to clarify the intent behind your photos - or to let others know of your interest in Anya - you could have posted some narrative - but did not.

These are the hard facts.

In addition - I am convinced that Shadow would never intentionally insult any of the members wives or fiances. That he would have the very same natural reaction I, and probably many others, had to these photos and make a comment about prostitutes - well, reference my first bullet above.

Why is there all of this talk about prostitutes? Seems like a tempest in a teapot.

As too often occurs when people do not have an interest in constructive COMMUNICATIONS.

- Dan

[Admin]

Can I clarify what is/is not considered to be offensive on the board?

So as I understand it is acceptable to make snide, derogatory comments about a woman who works as a prostitute...?
but only provided she is not in a committed relationship with a board member?

Personally, I think ALL women deserve respect.
But to each their own...

ps.  William3rd, you missed the deleted posts.

daveyj,

This board strives to achieve civil discourse. We do not believe it is acceptable to make snide or derogatory comments toward anyone.

At the same time, we are not going to be intellectually dishonest and fail to acknowledge the obvious. It is obvious to all who have spent any time in Ukraine that there is, indeed, a fairly active trade in prostitution in many of the night clubs. To deny that would be silly, IMO.

Shadow's comment was a simple comment that I might have made if I'd had more time for participation. He merely acknowledged what appeared to him to be prostitutes in the photos. Anyone might have felt the same - I did. I did not assume that ALL the women in the photos were pros (or semi-pros), but my reaction was that there easily could be some paid talent in the photos. Like I wrote earlier - big deal?!? It happens. It happens in Kyiv, and Moscow, and Jakarta, and Berlin, and Las Vegas, and New York City (but NOT in Denver, I promise).

This entire eruption would be easily handled with a few narrative comments that would have dispelled all speculation - but that narrative was not offered - so, we are where we are.

How about we all just let it go.

- Dan

[daveyj]

This board strives to achieve civil discourse. We do not believe it is acceptable to make snide or derogatory comments toward anyone.
.
.
.
How about we all just let it go.

I think Jack's reponse to Shadow's comment was reasonable and justified.  I also think Jack bears responsibility for not providing context for the photos.

Thanks for your comments, and I'm happy to put it in the rearview mirror.

[kievstar]

Disco radio hall is a great disco on the river.  I have been there more than 30 times (probably 100 - I like there sushi restaurant upstairs) -I used to own an apartment across the street  and could walk there in about 5 minutes.  My fiance likes it there as well.  Anyways I have some great photos there but I guess I can not post them.  But here is the link to the club - http://www.disco-club.kiev.ua/rus/gallery/

They have very good tables (seats 6 comfortably and your ladies have room to dance) and for a cheap price of $100 (more if not American) you can have a table.  As most guys now that comes with several bottles of vodka, champagne, mixers, fruit plate etc.  If you order cocktails make sure they bring the hard liquor separate or they will screw you with cheap booze.  You need to book table in advance as this club is very busy.  There are a lot of hookers there as I went there in November with me fiance and when she went to the bathroom I had to tell numerous girls in Russian no I do not want sex or dance.    But that is like that in any club I have been to in Ukraine.  

Also a safe club, guys acting like jerks get thrown out quickly.  

[GoodOlBoy]

Gator, there were men there from ..... 65. 

Porno Pike? aka Albert...... Ambach123?

Also a safe club, guys acting like jerks get thrown out quickly.

I guess not.   

[Mir]

Yes there are lots of such clubs in Kiev, I personally think if you want to meet real Ukrainians try the Docker's.
As such I am with Jack in this.
What is prostitution? A woman in a buyers market needs to attract men, that is what Ukraine is, a byers market for men.
So is that all bad? If yes then why do the respected people on this broad look to Ukraine and Russia for a woman?
I think it is time for a reality check, what do you think Shadow?

[GoodOlBoy]

A woman in a buyers market needs to attract men, that is what Ukraine is, a byers market for men.

I have done my fair share of denigrating Russian Men on this forum for their bad behavior, but referring to UW/RW in this way is pretty sad.  

[kievstar]

Mir, have you been to Dockers in past 2 years?  That is a known sex tourist hangout. Why I seek a woman there in Ukraine - I plan to live there and women in USA will not move to Ukraine.  But I think you know very few women in Ukraine are hookers or plan on marrying a foreigner.  Probably a higher  percentage amount of hookers and women who will marry foreigners in England / USA.

[Mir]

[img]Was in Dockers last year.Not the one in the centre but the one in the outskirts (here is photo from it)
Did not see any hookers, maybe I can't tell who is one.I am sure someone will comment that the ones in the photo are hookers.
All I can say it that it was for locals and not for the visitors who fly in to Ukraine expecting to find a pure virgin.
Can't understand GoodOLboy, have you been to Russia and Ukraine?
If yes why did you go there? Because you had a natural attraction to Russian women? Crap
You went there because you thought you are a hotter commodity there then in the country you live in.
You deny it? Fine continue to live in your delusion.
WESTERN MEN GO TO FSU TO TRADE UP, AND THAT IS THE TRUTH.
Now you don't like it said bluntly? fine, delete what I said about a byers market. Lets just say that in Ukraine and in Russia an older but financially well off man can find a younger and prettier wife.
Is that sad? Yes maybe but it is the truth.

The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple.

(Oscar Wild)

[kievstar]

Mir, I think you were in dockers pub.  Which is different.