Need advice after first trip to Ukraine!

[flatsix]

Hello all,

I am new to this site and have read posts here for several months trying to get the best advice before going on my trip to Odessa.

I met a very nice woman who is 38 and has a 14 year old son. We met through Russian Love Match which I have already read is too expensive and should be avoided, however I had already spent time emailing her for 2 months and figured out too late that the site wanted me to pay for more emailing credits before they would give me her contact info.
I felt a very good connection with her and did not mind spending the money.

After 3 months of emails and phone calls I decided to meet with her.

Unfortunately,  In our emails she hinted to me that there was a dress that she had always wanted and it could only be purchased here in the states on line. I was making my trip close to Christmas time and decided that I should go ahead and buy this gift for her, she also mentioned in another email that she wanted to get an Ipod touch for her son and that she would reimburse me for it when I came.  I thought again that it being Christmas time that it would be a nice thing to do for a woman who I felt could definitely be my future wife.

I did feel that it was a little improper to ask me for these things since we had not met. I decided to write her and tell her that I felt a little uncomfortable buying anything for her until we met and to wait until I arrived and we could discuss these things...  Of course that did not go over well and she was nice to me about it but said please do not bring any gifts now as the meaning would just not be the same for her now.
I will not detail all of the things that she said but it was a definite misunderstanding.

I did not mention those things again and we continued to write as usual.  I did end up purchasing those gifts for her, I was glad to know what she wanted (it being Christmas and all), and figured that once I arrived and new that we had chemistry that I would be happy to give her those gifts.

I arrived in Odessa on the 10th of December, and we ended up meeting the next day.

We definitely hit it off and it was as if we had known each other for many months. She speaks very good English so we had no communication problems. She took the week off from work to spend time with me which I felt was very nice of her.
After getting to know her better and spending more time with her I did discover that she has struggled to survive raising her son on her own, her ex husband is wealthy but does not contribute much to help raise her him. She makes enough to pay the bills but struggles to save money, but does own her own apartment.

She was affectionate with my by giving me a kiss goodbye when she left and holding my hand and arm when ever we walked together. It was very nice and respectful, just the way I would want to date and court my future wife. We started talking about our next meeting almost immediately which I felt was great, I plan on meeting her several times before asking her to marry me.

After the third day because things were going so well I decided to surprise her with the gift I had brought for her. She of course was extremely happy that I had purchased the dress for her, it was something that she had always wanted but could not afford.
I did give the Ipod to her son as a Christmas gift, I was glad to give it to him since things were going so well.

The only thing that bothered me just a bit, and I am not sure if this is OK or not, was that we were shopping on about the 5th day and she started looking at boots and said she needed some to match her dress. The boots were about $100 US and I thought that if she were my girl, I would buy her these things anyway. (of course it is also Xmas time)

Later she as we were walking there was a purse store and of course she needed a purse to match the rest of the outfit. The purse ended up being about $200 US.  She did ask me if it was alright to purchase the items and did not just buy them expecting me to pay, we shopped Little more and I ended up buying a shirt or two for her son as well.
I was feeling a little uncomfortable buying her such expensive gifts at our first meeting, total spent was about $1000 US including the other gifts I had already bought.
Also each day that we bought groceries for my apt, she added many items that she needed for hers as well.

Other than feeling uncomfortable about these purchases I had a great time and felt wonderful chemistry with her. The only money she asked me for was for her taxi home which took her about an hour to get home.
I kept in mind this whole time that she was taking 10 or so days off of work to spend time with me.

Everything went great until the last day, we were talking and somehow the subject of her shopping came up. I felt this need to ask her about it and because I feel as if she could be my future wife I wanted her to know how I felt.
I told her that I just felt a little uncomfortable when she asked me to buy the extra items, just because it was our first meeting. She got very quiet and would not look at me, she said that because there were so many big sales now and because she knew she would not see me for a very long time that it would be nice for me to purchase these things for her. She also said that she wanted to know if she were to come to the US that if she needed and clothing or makeup or what ever that I would not hesitate to take care of her.
In other words sort of a test in her mind to see what I would do if she asked me for certain things. I explained to her that I would always take care of her and she would not have to have a need or want if we were married.
 I just felt different being there for the first time and having here ask me for things, you read so many things on these sites that say what you should or shouldn't do.
I explained to her that because It was Christmas time that I was happy to buy these things but only because it was our first meeting I was uncomfortable.
She seemed upset and did not understand my meaning well, we sat there with that uncomfortable silence for about 15 minutes. I told her that I was sorry that she misunderstood me and after about a half an hour she started to come around. I definitely hurt her feelings.

We talked things through and moved on, we had a great last day together even after our misunderstanding.

I arrived home just yesterday and I have already chatted with her, She says that she is very happy with our meeting and did mentioned that the last day was the only thing that bothered her.

I just would like some opinions about my story, I just wonder how acceptable it is under my circumstances to have had her ask me in advance for gifts and after I arrived. Part of me wants to believe that it is a good thing that she was comfortable enough with me to be able to ask me for those things that she wanted.

We have already started planning our next meeting for February.

[Jack]

flatsix my opnion will probably vary from others but I do not think these are good signs.

First, and in my opnion only, a good Russian/Ukraine woman will never ask for gifts from a man she had never met. She did this with you.
I think this was the first big yellow flag.

She ask's you to buy her these boots. What is a man going to say? of course you buy them. Then to ask you to buy a purse to match the boots.  Oh flatfix, I have done the same, although not in many years.  And to buy things for herself and her flat while shopping for food and materials for your flat.   Time will tell but I expect these are not good things. I think after 3 months, or 5 months or ? months this relationship will peter out. But the education, the experience, is all part of the wonderful pursuit for a Russian/Ukraine bride.

[Kuna]

flatsix,

I hope no one beats you up too badly but you have inadvertently become both the cause, and a victim of, Pro-Dating.

By doing what you've done you have perpetuated an industry of scamming and an impression (or knowledge proof positive) that Western Men - or more specifically Americans, are an easy touch.

This lady may very well end up being genuine...  no one REALLY knows...  but I am going to ask you one question:

You obviously felt uncomfortable with this part of your "friendship" with this woman... How much WORSE do you think her behaviour would be after marriage, if you ever did marry her?

I guess that is the thing that really interests me about these situations.  Why on earth don't the men in these situations just wake up to the fact that it is inappropriate behaviour and just put their foot down and say, "Damn it, NO, I am making a decision and it is NO!"

Ultimately, I don't believe a genuine woman would ask for such gifts... but if a genuine woman was asking for these gifts she is more likely to respect a man who stands up for what is right and appropriate rather than one who is able to be manipulated.

Ever heard of the "real man" concept???  Can a "real man" be easily manipulated??? I think not.  A "real man" would stand his ground and act reasonably and responsibly... just like a genuine woman would, or should.

Best of luck in the future.  Your mistakes of the past probably started with the agency selection but hopefully will end before you blow any more money that should be reserved for a healthier relationship.

Welcome to RWD...  stick around as your experiences are vali learning exercises for other men.

Kuna

[ChrisBfla]

I'm not sure this is a good sign.  My wife (when I met her) did not want anything but I actualy brought a lot of things along for her unasked including a Barbie and a new coat for her daughter and a beautiful evening dress for her that she wore to the ballet in Kiev.  While in Kiev, she kept asking me what time it was and I realized she had no watch so we stopped into a store an I got her a Cassio.  Wow! you would have thought I got her a Rolex the way she reacted!

Here is the states, my wife runs the house hold budget and we have a ton of money in savings, CDs and IRA accounts plus we bought a beautiful condo.  She's a financial genius!  I also remember I could not give her any money before I flew back to the US on my first visit to her city.  She would not take it, but the agency owner drove us to the airport for my flight.  I pulled him aside, gave him the money and told him to give it to her once my plane left.

Please, be very careful.  I hope your lady does not think you are Donald Trump!

Chris
www.freewebs.com/chrisbfla

[GoodOlBoy]

After getting to know her better and spending more time with her I did discover that she has struggled to survive raising her son on her own, her ex husband is wealthy but does not contribute much to help raise her him.

Typical Russian/Ukrainian father's behavior.

I did feel that it was a little improper to ask me for these things since we had not met........ I decided to write her and tell her that I felt a little uncomfortable buying anything for her until we met and to wait until I arrived and we could discuss these things...    I did end up purchasing those gifts for her.....

Why did you change your mind?

If you felt "uncomfortable" or thought it was "improper" to buy these expensive gift's...... THEN DON'T DO IT!!

FLATSIX, I don't want to come across as condescending, but you have made several mistakes with this lady that cannot be "undone".

And to any "Newbies" reading this post...."Do not buy expensive gifts for someone you have NEVER met in person or just your FIRST meeting"....DON'T DO IT!!

BTW..... My wife (then girlfriend) asked me to bring something from America. Well, me being a GoodOl' Virginia Boy, I took a 15 lb. Smithfield Virginia Ham (Smoked) and a bottle of Perrier Jouet Champagne and some American Chocolates for our first meeting in Siberia. My wife's family and friends went crazy over the ham. My wife enjoyed the champagne and chocolates.      GOB

[kievstar]

Women ask for things no matter the country.  Men need to tell women no.  RW tend to ask for more things than most women but I have yet to see a RW get mad when a man says no.  You need to be strong with a RW but not greedy.  Little advise - if you go shopping you will buy things.  Most RM I know never get caught go shopping unless they decide to go shopping.  If your not a strong guy, this woman will take advantage of you. 

[GoodOlBoy]

You need to be strong with a RW but not greedy. 

Exactly.    


GOB

[Shadow]

How would you react if she did this and lived only 10 minutes away from you ?
Living on the other side of the ocean does not give the right to make you jump through hoops.

[groovlstk]

In other words sort of a test in her mind to see what I would do if she asked me for certain things.

Very, very bad - she always has a reason why she wants you to buy her stuff, whether it's a test, there's a sale, or she won't see you for a long time. IMHO you've already begun to slide down a long, slippery slope and once set in motion this sort of behavior is impossible to reverse.

[Enot]

If you continue this relationship, try saying no to the expensive gifts and only buy the neccessities like food and clothes.

You said she asked "if we could buy" and you did.  You should haved looked for a different purse if $200 was too much for you or said no.  It isn't a good sign she asks but sometimes FSU women will test you.  It appears you passed the test but was it worth it?  Does the relationship have a chance of growing into something more?  I would say no.

IN MY OPINION, MOST women from the Ukraine and Russia have become more westernized and materialistic.  If I were you, I would look in other countries of the FSU like Belarus, Moldova, and Uzbekistan.

Good luck and Happy Holidays!

[Faux Pas]

Very, very bad - she always has a reason why she wants you to buy her stuff, whether it's a test, there's a sale, or she won't see you for a long time. IMHO you've already begun to slide down a long, slippery slope and once set in motion this sort of behavior is impossible to reverse.

flatfix

You could possibly defy all odds and later find this woman is genuine but that is highly unlikely. Albeit possible to defy, but unlikely. It appears that you were a mark and this wasn't her first rodeo. She played you like a fiddle. But why would you want to spend more effort, time and money on this lady?

There are hundreds of thousands, quite possibly millions who are genuine and waiting for you.  Someone else mentioned would you buy a lady those gifts who was in your hometown and you were on a first date? Fast forward to being married to such a woman who would make such requests. Is this what you want in a wife? Can you imagine the guilt trips she'd lay on you anytime you told her no or that you were uncomfortable with that decision?

You should think hard before continuing with this lady because the end result and there will be one, may come after you marry her. Then the real tragedy begins.

[Ade]

Typical Russian/Ukrainian father's behavior.

And, a typical quote from you. Dude, it's very tedious seeing your opinion about RM getting interjected into almost every thread.
Let's get this straight, your opinion differs from that of my fiancée and she's lived in Russia all her life in various places; she's also got family in Ukraine that she used to visit often once upon a time so she has a fair understanding of a woman's lot in both countries. I guess if I have to trust any opinion on this, it would be hers.

As for Flatsix; well, it was unwise to go buying stuff for someone you'd never met. I'm guilty myself of buying expensive presents for new girlfriends though so who am I to judge? The fact that she asked outright for things would worry me too but it's not necessarily a sign of a pro-dater; however, you should definitely keep your eyes open and shouldn't rush into any marriage proposals until you've satisfied yourself that she's kosher and not using you just for your wallet.

[GoodOlBoy]

your opinion differs from that of my fiancée .....

We have a saying here in the Good Ol' USA.

Opinions are like a**holes...everybody has one.

Translation: Your opinion may be different than mine, but it doesn't smell any better.

Sorry for the interruption Flatsix.

GOB

[Ade]

We have a saying here in the Good Ol' USA.

Opinions are like a**holes...everybody has one.

Nice. I guess there's an inference in there somewhere.

I have a saying for you too, "not all opinions are equally valid." And yes, that means yours.

[Sculpto]

flatsix...

Since you went ot Odessa with RLM and I have a LOT of experience with that corrupt scammers site I would like to ask you some questions about the agency your girl is with which might help you.

Do you know the name of the affiliate agency?  Are they supposedly "Christian"?  Also, if you are not against the idea you could tell me the ID# of the girl.  (in PM if you want to keep it private)  I know a lot of the Odessa girls from RLM and I have a very very good female friend in Odessa who quit RLM because of the scams.  She can verify the honesty of any particular lady.

One of the problems with RLM is the agencies are coaching the girls way too much.  There is an equal chance his girl would have never thought to ask for gifts in this way until she joined the agency and the agency and other girls told her it was ok to do so.  Also, if she is a RLM girl and pretty hot she probably has options.  She is going to take best advantage of her options until one of those options rises above the others.  That is, if she is sincere about marriage.

I want to add one other "critique" for flatsix.  Next time, don't "explain" anything.  Just say no if you are not comfortable.  If you explain you cause her to feel some shame and a loss of face.  That is the fastest way to lose one of these girls in the beginning stages.

[GoodOlBoy]

"not all opinions are equally valid."

Let us suppose for the moment that each opinion is valid. Then this opinion, that each opinion is invalid, is also valid. Thus each opinion is valid and invalid. We must then conclude that each opinion handed down by the courts of law is both valid and invalid. Thus all law is both valid and invalid. Even the laws of Moses, the Ten Commandments, must be valid and invalid under this assumption. "Thou shalt not lie" becomes a matter of public opinion. Even the statement "God exists" is both valid and invalid. Since our courts do not rule that a law is valid and invalid, we conclude that our original supposition is not valid. We conclude that some opinions are invalid.

In fact, at most half of the opinions can be valid since their logical negation must then be false. Half can be valid, and then half must be invalid.

Here is another approach that requires a little more of you. Suppose that each opinion is valid. Then the opinion "This opinion is invalid" is neither valid nor invalid. And yet all opinions are valid and invalid. It seems that this supposition that all opinions are valid will get us into a lot of trouble.

Understand?


Sorry again for the interruption Flatsix.

GOB

[Enot]

Every opinion is valid in theory.  In reality all opinions are not valid.  Let's not over analize this issue and get back on topic.

[BillyB]

flatsix,
  You need to ask yourself if you can afford her. She has a rich ex. Ask yourself if she only targets "rich" men? What's her motives? She did take a week off work for you but for the amount of gift$ you bought her, it was worth it. She gave you the attention you wanted and she got what she wanted. Don't mistaken her holding your arm for sincerety.

You started this thread because you have doubts. It's still not to late to look for a woman that gives you no doubts. If you do this again, use a different agency if you want a much better chance at success.

[Sculpto]

Without revealing what the OP confided to me in private there are some serious concerns regarding the affiliate agency his girl is using.  I know this agency and they are one of the most sophisticated scam agencies in the RLM network.  They also post their girls on AFA, Anastasia, Army, 1st international and all the other "bucket shops".  they are hard to avoid.. I suspect many of us have had dealings with them, knowingly or not, at some point.

If anyone could manage to get a copy of the contract that the girls sign it would be amazingly interesting to review.  My feeling, though not confirmed, is this agency makes the girls sign away all their rights to their own images and they assign the agency the right to correspond in proxy for them.  RLM customer service is either in complete denial of what is going on or they are part of the scamming that is perpetrated.


It is my opinion the OP got off easy.  Whether he has a sincere girl or not remains to be seen.  It is entirely possible she did not take time off of any job as she may very well be employed by her agency, or, at least getting a cut on what her profile produces in letter fees, chat fees and gifts. 

I suggested to the OP he might want to consider just showing up in Odessa, if he can afford to, and see how the woman reacts.  If she is sincere it would seem she should be thrilled at the suprise.  If she is a fraud it would seem she would be annoyed.  I may also give my friend in Odessa a call and see if she can verify the status of the girl.  Though, my friend may be getting sick of me doing this.  I do not want to ask for too many favors.

[saturn11]

There are hundreds of thousands, quite possibly millions who are genuine and waiting for you. 

WoW! there are some right-on comments in this thread, BUT i'm amazed that unrealistic comments like the one above continue to be spread here.... I say it's more like a myth.... Success stories, yes they are here, falilures, also many more here, but to say that there are so many good pickings (hundreds of thousands, possibly millions) in FSU is a HUGE stretch to say the least. IF you do your homework, research, read the threads, and have a little luck, etc.... You can find a good woman in FSU.... But as any newbie will soon find out, its a journey that requires alot of patience and dollars... Is the FSU really worth it? Depends on what your willing to settle for... Buyer Beware!

[Enot]

WoW! there are some right-on comments in this thread, BUT i'm amazed that unrealistic comments like the one above continue to be spread here.... I say it's more like a myth.... Success stories, yes they are here, falilures, also many more here, but to say that there are so many good pickings (hundreds of thousands, possibly millions) in FSU is a HUGE stretch to say the least. IF you do your homework, research, read the threads, and have a little luck, etc.... You can find a good woman in FSU.... But as any newbie will soon find out, its a journey that requires alot of patience and dollars... Is the FSU really worth it? Depends on what your willing to settle for... Buyer Beware!

I agree Saturn11 but Faux, as in fake, thinks he is always right but I would ignore his comments toward you.  Millions is definetly a faux number.

[neo]

Some men are so mean their wallets are sewn into their pockets.
Some men are so generous they are starving and barefoot for the love of a good woman.
A happy man has a content woman and money in the bank.

Thats all I can really contribute on this thread because I've got to go and order a new porsche for my girlfriend in time for womens day ;0)

[Jack]

Women ask for things no matter the country. 

kievstar, do you think it is normal for good women who you have never meet to come out and ask you to buy them a gift?   If you think this is normal no big deal, we will just have a differing opinion.

RW tend to ask for more things than most women but I have yet to see a RW get mad when a man says no. 

Excuse me for laughing as I write this but only a few hours ago a Kiev woman got very mad at one of the men when he refused to buy her a gift.

I think some questionable women may not come right out and reveal their being mad, but with these not so good Russian/Ukraine women who do not like you telling them no to a gift, their probably not going to be seeing that man. Which in the long run was the best thing for him.

I have said this many times, and of course their will always be exceptions, but the norm is, in my opinion, no good Russian/Ukraine woman will ever ask a man she has never met for gifts.

[Faux Pas]

WoW! there are some right-on comments in this thread, BUT i'm amazed that unrealistic comments like the one above continue to be spread here.... I say it's more like a myth.... Success stories, yes they are here, falilures, also many more here, but to say that there are so many good pickings (hundreds of thousands, possibly millions) in FSU is a HUGE stretch to say the least. IF you do your homework, research, read the threads, and have a little luck, etc.... You can find a good woman in FSU.... But as any newbie will soon find out, its a journey that requires alot of patience and dollars... Is the FSU really worth it? Depends on what your willing to settle for... Buyer Beware!

Saturn I don't recall confining the search to the FSU as I spoke of women in general but lets take a look at it this way. There are 300 million population of the FSU? Half of which are women (150 million). Of those for the sake of conversation, lets say half are of marrying age (75 million) of which half are already married. That leaves 37.5 million available women in the countries of the FSU. Is it really so difficult to believe that there (MAY) be 1 million genuine women?

Saturn I was hoping to encourage the lad in his search and be realistic. I think I achieved that with a respectable number and stand by it even though the quick math may be a bit fuzzy.

[Faux Pas]

I agree Saturn11 but Faux, as in fake, thinks he is always right but I would ignore his comments toward you.  Millions is definetly a faux number.

Enot, you are a complete and total idiot. It is indeed a sad, sick mind that cruises forums with no other intent than to inflame and disrupt.