Dating Non-English Speakers: Opinions please

[GalinaF]

Even now, with my adequate Russian, my wife's English skills, knowing my wife for 5 years, me having spent two years in Ukraine and her having spent over a year here, some topics are difficult to discuss and, to be honest, are skirted around.  

Scott, I’m wondering what topics you are not able to discuss in depth with your wife? Could you please give an example?

In my case, I won’t be ever able to fully participate in a conversation about old movies, pop stars, TV shows, etc. as I was raised in a different culture. I’m sure that I’ve missed many puns and innuendoes while talking to my colleagues at school, and it doesn’t bother me. But when I’m with my husband, I don’t let any uncertainty slip into our conversation. I can’t think of any topics that are “off limits” between the two of us because English is a second language for me.

Law, I wish you luck! You’ll need it…

[Vaughn]

The ratio of 'for' to 'against' is roughly about 7 (against) to 3 (for). The members who have actually dated non-English speakers provide very, VERY compelling arguments 'against' and I am considering those arguments most carefully.

Law, add me to the "against" group. My wife, bless her, spoke no English at all. We conducted our
relationship in her language with my fair but limited ability. I agree with Enot about translators and
never used one. It was tough going at times. In 2001/2002 I crammed 3 hours nightly, made it my hobby.
In February 2003 I awoke next to a beautiful woman - my new wife - yet still very much a stranger to me as
I was to her. While we wouldn't trade our experience for anything, we also wouldn't prescribe it.

Stubbornness helps, but by itself may not be enough to see you through.

Vaughn

[I/O]

Dating or Marrying a non English speaker can work, but add me to the "against", vehemently so actually. Pots and kettles again. I did exactly what I advise against. We've made it thus far (3 1/2 year relationship and 18 months together full time) and it is becoming much easier but for those men who want more than an ornament on the street, I challenge most to survive the learning process. More importantly, the notion about restricting the search pool by staying with English speakers is BS. If you have 50 women in a group whom you can't communicate with any, your search pool is zero. If you have 5 women in a group who all speak English, then your search pool is .............hello, 5..!! That is 5 more than the former group. It goes further, a very large number (I didn't say percentage) of women in the East speak at least some English. Much larger numbers than many, particularly the terps and agents will have you believe. The choices remain immense and in practical reality are often more if you restrict a search to English speakers.

That is the selfish side. What about thinking of her for a moment? She arrives in the promised land with little or no language and what sort of life does she have? Your hand servant? You spoon feed her via a few English courses as and when it suits you? IMO selecting a non English (Or your language) speaker is a very selfish course to follow. There remains nothing, including my being the cause of her leaving all she knows and loves, which makes me feel smaller or lower than watching someone I love in tears of frustration because she simply doesn't understand something. This is becoming much less frequent nowadays, but it does happen from time to time. Think about whether you are man enough to take a hard decision at the get go...........................

I/O

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott, I’m wondering what topics you are not able to discuss in depth with your wife? Could you please give an example?

In my case, I won’t be ever able to fully participate in a conversation about old movies, pop stars, TV shows, etc. as I was raised in a different culture. I’m sure that I’ve missed many puns and innuendoes while talking to my colleagues at school, and it doesn’t bother me. But when I’m with my husband, I don’t let any uncertainty slip into our conversation. I can’t think of any topics that are “off limits” between the two of us because English is a second language for me.

Law, I wish you luck! You’ll need it…

By "skirt around" I didn't mean off limits.  Most relate to topics that are an unfamilar topic to her, not having grown up in the US.  For example, pop culture, deep discussions of US history, religion or politics (not just the concepts but the philosophies behind them, medical issues beyond the basics, American novels and some of the uniquely American symbolism.  These are just a few.  There are no topics that are "off limits" or that we don't discuss, just some that can only be discussed to a certain depth.  I'm sure with time we will be able to discuss some of these in greater depth, but the time required becomes incremental as you go.

[ECOCKS]

We originally starte dtalking about "dating" a non-English speaker but a couple of posters raise excellent points about being practical with regard to when/if you try to bring her to your home country.

I know one guy back in the states who is not exactly living the dream because of this.  His wife has been severely upset for a couple of years now since the only work she could find was as a hotel maid. She is trying to do language lessons but struggling due to the requirements of work, household, children and life. 

I still have my wife, step-son and future daughter-in-law taking lessons and pushing her to be ready or at least as ready as possible for the day we head for the states.  They cannot be too well-prepared in this area.

Any of you in the Kyiv area, I can help you find some good, reputable English programs and, if you are here, can also help you with some Russian language training. Times are tough and you get what you pay for but this is a rock-solid investment in your future happiness.

[Law]

I know one guy back in the states who is not exactly living the dream because of this.  His wife has been severely upset for a couple of years now since the only work she could find was as a hotel maid. She is trying to do language lessons but struggling due to the requirements of work, household, children and life. 

The replies about dating a Non-English speaker with a view to married life to a Non-English speaker provide some chilling, sobering insights. I ought to pay for info this useful! (Don't get any funny ideas, tho )

A friend of mine at work came here to live his dream of working in film here in the U.S. from Russia. However as his wife would soon discover her impressive status overseas became reduced to nothing here. She's (they're) now working to transfer her credentials, get a leg up on English, learn to drive and take care of their toddler. It doesn't look easy...to say the least.

[Sculpto]

Law.. the point you bring up about losig status is HUGE IMO.  I am actually really worried about this in my case.  My GF is very respected in her field but upon arrival here she will be a nobody.  I worry about her reaction to this change. 

I would add though.. if you are from the USA.. say someplace in the midwest.. and have status there.. and then move to SF, LA, NYC... your status would also be highly diminished.. so this phenomena is not limited to immigrants, fiances and so on.  F.E. I have a friend back in the midwest who is a pretty good artist.  he chose to stay there so he could be a big fish in a little pond.  In the city he lives he is THE MAN, but, if he were to arrive here in SF tomorrow he would learn that here is a lot more competetive.

Competition also brings up another issue that to me is not unrelated to the problems of language.  I believe the competition for the super job is a lot more intense here than it is elsewhere.. can anyone give some insite into how their ladies were able to adapt to the competitive work environment?

[HiTech]

I have been thinking about the pro's of a non English speaker. I believe there are a number of good things about finding a non English speaker.

In my case, Finding an English speaking woman who fit my other criteria was very very limited. While it is simple to say there are lots of English speaking woman looking for a WM, I did some stats on charming brides.

Aprox 300 total women.

33 Middle English
27 Good
7   Fluent.

So only 22% of woman speak English.

I believe most men would prefer and English speaker. So there is much more competition for  attractive English speakers. So if you assume the English speaking women would be married sooner, the number of GOOD English speaking women is some what less than 22%.

Most people on this sight would agree communication is one of the most important factors in a long term relationship. I am starting to think that the fact that it is a lot of work to communicate with a non English speaker becomes a very good filter of some one you will be compatible with. The fact that you both are putting forth a lot of effort to understand each other (this is an assumption, and if it is not the case most would agree the relationship will not work). This effort or lack there of, can be a great help to determine if the relationship can be a long lasting one.

Side NOTE:
Friday Alyona has her interview to determine what ESL class to start at. 4 days a week 5 hours per day should bring her to collage level English in 1 year.

Dale

[Chicagoguy]

My fiance had almost zero English skill when we first met but somehow we managed to "communicate". The second meeting was a trip to Turkey and we still managed. I have never used a translator while in Russia and my language skills are terrible but I always managed.

She is trying so hard. A long letter in good English every day and she gets angry if I try one in Russian. Says she wants everything in English. But it takes her 1 to 2.5 hours for every letter. She is currently taking classes in her home town from a woman who used to live in Chicago. I am retired and she will not NEED to work so we have time to work on the language.

But after saying all this I know she will "never know the old songs". And one of my daughters is a certified ESL teacher and she told me it takes 10 years to be fluent. For instance - read and understand the NYT paper or English novels.

Also, I have some very good friends who I first met in Russia 16 years ago and they have now lived nearby for 14 years so I am hoping that will help.

But her persistence, excitement and spirit are what won me over. That and 15 months of her always interesting daily letters. Never once mentioning the weather

All of this is not for the faint of heart. Expensive and time consuming. But IMHO my catch makes it all worth while. Time will tell ! ?

[GoodOlBoy]

I am retired and she will not NEED to work so we have time to work on the language.

Hello Chicagoguy, don't mean to stick my nose into something personal, but... If God forbid something happens to you. Are you leaving her everything (house, plus at least 1/2 million dollars to live out her life)?

If the answer to this question is NO, then you might want to reconsider your thoughts on the subject.

She may have to work and with NO English skills, prospects are not good.

Of course I guess she could go back to her own country, but that doesn't seem very fair.

BTW.... This scenario happened to one of my neighbor's and his Ukrainian wife. She didn't get the house (condo) and money, his kid's got everything.

[I/O]

The replies about dating a Non-English speaker with a view to married life to a Non-English speaker provide some chilling, sobering insights.

As they should. Glad to see someone (For once) who asked a question is actually listening to the answers. Back to the original question. Dating...................if it is simply that, dating with no thoughts of any future relationship, then the whole language thing is much less important.

I/O

[Simoni]

The language issue came up a few times in the responses to my recent Trip Report. I'd like to collect some opinions about dating non-English speakers. I had originally been under the impression that expanding my search to ladies who don't speak English was a good idea. But there are some pretty obvious challenges and time issues too.

"Dating" non-English speakers is a great idea!  Why?

Because it will demonstrate to you how difficult communication is.  And by doing so, it will help to prevent you from getting engaged to a girl you don't very well-- certainly not well enough to marry, given the language short circuit.

The odds are against you in this matter anyway, so don't make them even longer by marrying someone you don't share a common language with.

There is a whole lot more to consider, but that is my input for you on the language question.

Good luck!

[topofthekey]

I say go with the girls that speak at least some english as well. Not disagreeing with what chicago guy said BUT I've noticed it only takes a couple of years for someone to be able to be comfortable communicating in the workplace (certainly not the same as reading a novel or law book). But I remember some bosnians that came over due to the war over there and they all learned pretty fast. One in particular that didn't know any english learned pretty quick. She took some english classes so in a few months after arriving she could find a job. In a year or two she had a customer service job in a retail store. Again not saying she is ready to attend Yale, but she could communicate pretty well.

[ECOCKS]

The problem with anecdotal presentations is that they are rarely representative.  Equally, when looking at that special woman you have selected from thousands of other women, it is difficult to remember she isn't Superwoman.  I doubt seriously that any of us would pick an "average" woman but it will be a harsh reality check when you're holding her at night as she is crying over jobs she didn't get, how things used to be and nasty things some grocery clerk said to her at Safeway.

Sure, there are people who are "fast on the up-take" and pick up language quickly.  However most people will spend a few years getting to a comfort level in a new language.  Those wives who were teachers will be heartbroken that schools won't hire them due to lack of communications skills much less the subject matter which is culturally centered and completely unknown.  The "economists" here are barely going to be employable as Cingular sales clerks at home even if they have good language skills.  A doctor who cannot communicate with the nurses, patients or administrative staff will be devastated when they learn that they are only going to find work as a pharmacy assistant while going to school for 2-5 more years to learn our technologies and methods. 

Even everyday living skills are challenging.  In California they offered the Driver's examination in Spanish but in Tennessee I doubt there is any assistance for a Russian speaker to take the test.  If they don't understand the examiner's instructions on the route and actions, they are going to have trouble.  Can she ask for baking powder at Kroger’s? Can she distinguish between a ribeye steak and a sirloin? What happens if her car breaks down and she has to deal with a mechanic or road service guy and left her cell phone at home that morning?  Daddy ain't gonna be there to hold her hand every second.  And, oh yeah, GOB has an excellent point as to what will happen to her if something happens to you.

So, if your gal is barely able to communicate in English, then as soon as you decide she's the one, pop for a serious language training program.  If you waited until applying for your visa then even 4 lessons a week isn't too much. Have her reading everything possible, listening to English movies WITH ENGLISH SUBTITLES and speaking English whenever she can. You'll be glad you did.

[Enot]

When I first visited the FSU many years ago for business, I couldn't speak Russian.  Now I speak it very well.  It is harder for someone that speaks English to learn Russian than it is for someone who speaks Russian to learn English.  I have heard this from many people including a professor of language at a University in Russia.

In other words and in my opinion, don't let the fact that a woman can't speak any English deter your chances of finding a bride.  If she is truely intersted in you and a foreign husband, she will learn.  If she doesn't then you know she's not serious.

[I/O]

If she is truely intersted in you and a foreign husband, she will learn.  If she doesn't then you know she's not serious.

That may help to know something about her but it won't help you to know her.

So you wait till she learns English so you can actually get to know her and then decide if your suit each other? One date every 2 years wouldn't suit too many punters I suspect, because that's about what this route would provide. Sorry, but I find this quite comical, Hire a twerp to explain to her she needs to get off her butt and learn English so you can decide if you want anything more to do with her. Maybe she can hire the same twerp to explain to you that you are the most romantic and charming individual she has met and she most certainly will learn English in the hope you might be interested in her. Why am I thinking 'taint gunna happen?

I/O

[Vaughn]

.... I have added a Russian phrase or two in some letters and mentioned that I am learning Russian.  Almost all women expressed support for my efforts, although one sounded disappointed, that I was in some way criticizing her English.

  Poker's statement of personal effort brings out one reaction that speaks volumes - that may have gone
otherwise unnoticed by a man who sought only competent English speakers. Am I alone in considering her
reaction a huge red flag?

  To any new fellows out there thinking about the pursuit, re-read Poker's post again and again. There are
so many untold benefits to adding some language to your arsenal.

[jj]

good point Vaughn.  If he had not made the effort to learn some Russian, he may never have found out about this lady's "defensive attitude".   

[Enot]

That may help to know something about her but it won't help you to know her.

So you wait till she learns English so you can actually get to know her and then decide if your suit each other? One date every 2 years wouldn't suit too many punters I suspect, because that's about what this route would provide. Sorry, but I find this quite comical, Hire a twerp to explain to her she needs to get off her butt and learn English so you can decide if you want anything more to do with her. Maybe she can hire the same twerp to explain to you that you are the most romantic and charming individual she has met and she most certainly will learn English in the hope you might be interested in her. Why am I thinking 'taint gunna happen?

I/O

So you are saying dating someone that doesn't speak your language can never lead to a happy marriage?  I'm sure there are many people that do not agree with this.  It's just closed minded thinking.  "It happens" all the time!  If your saying it is possible, then why did you state it would be quite commical?  I never said anything about a "hiring a twerp" or translator. 

[Law]

Great, great discussion. I don't have much to add except to say that even though the opinions 'against' are far more numerous and persuasive than 'for', I don't think dating and marrying a non-English speaker can be utterly damned and dismissed as WRONG. There are those who have successfully done it who would do it again if they had the chance. And the point has already been made that 'poor English' can become 'good English' in a relatively short time if it MUST for relationship or career. Opinions have weighed in pretty strongly 'against', but it can be done.

That being said, the number of failed relationships vs successful ones provides the necessary 'Guiding Wisdom' for the question IMO. The language challenges alone are enough to strangle the relationship to death (challenges that are severely exacerbated by culture, family, friends, strangers, career and a thousand other emergencies that life can throw in). The fact that those who are in relationships that began before the wife knew English DON'T recommend the same for others points even more clearly to the 'path of Wisdom'. Not taking heed may not mean certain death, but it might introduce a fight against a Hell that makes you wish you were.

All this guides the way for me pretty well...
Many thanks for all who joined in

-L

[I/O]

So you are saying dating someone that doesn't speak your language can never lead to a happy marriage?  I'm sure there are many people that do not agree with this.  It's just closed minded thinking.  "It happens" all the time!  If your saying it is possible, then why did you state it would be quite commical?  I never said anything about a "hiring a twerp" or translator. 

Did I say I had an unhappy marriage? You seem to have ignored the point I made early on that I am among the group who met a non English speaker and a number of years later, married her.

On the contrary,

"It happens" all the time!

is rather a sweeping claim. A few, including me, have progressed to marriage with someone who was originally a non English speaker.

If she is truely intersted in you and a foreign husband, she will learn.  If she doesn't then you know she's not serious.

Again, on the contrary, this certainly doesn't ensure progress to marriage, much less does it ensure progress to a happy marriage. Mrs and I have done fairly well under the circumstances but to suggest there has not been misunderstandings would be lying at best and further, 99% of those misunderstandings have been because of language issues. We spent in excess of 2 years prior to marriage, with several trips for both of us back and forth in the interim, are most punters prepared to spend that sort of time and money? I wouldn't change any of it for anything but a warning sounded to the freshman is a wise warning and apparently the OP has taken heed which is the more important outcome.

I/O

[Misha]

Well, a few comments. Just came back from a trip with my wife so I am a bit late getting into the fray.

I date and married a woman who knew ZERO English. She had memorized a few words visually for the work she did with computers at work. Otherwise, she did not know one word of English (she had studied German).

Fortunately, I spoke Russian fluently so it was our language of communication and still is to this day. However, even I will tell you that it would have been easier marrying someone who knew some English (or in my case French). Now, after two years or so, my wife can have a basic conversation in English. True, if she had had no choice, and we had to speak English all the time, she may have spoken it soon, but that would likely have made the culture shock that much worse.

So the disadvantages:

1. You can't really know someone IMHO unless you can have a conversation with them. Yes, she will learn, but it will take months (at best) and what do you do if you do not like what you hear when she does speak the language?
2. Culture shock: my wife went through a very difficult phase because of culture shock. The largest frustration was not knowing the language. I can only imagine what it would have been like if I had not spoken Russian.
3. Integration: not knowing any English will make it that much more difficult for her to eventually study or work. Heck it will make everything that much more difficult, much more stressful, and will make for much greater stress in your marriage.

So, all told, I would not recommend dating someone who does not speak your language. I would even advise great caution if you do speak Russian as she will likely have a much more difficult time if she has to learn a language from scratch no matter how linguistically adept she may be. Also, if you don't share a common language, why date someone you don't understand and risk falling in love with a woman who will for all practical purposes be a stranger?

[ambach123]

One of the best posts in this matter, noted a writer who came to a fork and " took the road less traveled ". That made all the difference in the world. The girls with fluent English would have many suitors specially  in Ukraine, where WM go by the hordes; also such girls are few and far between. To suggest that OP should limit to English speaking only, would limit his chances even further, which already are very slim.

I have had two reltionships.

For one, a UW when I first met her on line, her English was very limited, a couple of months later when I met her in person, she was fully conversant in English; she had taken the time and efforts to learn the language. I terminated the relationship, the language was never a problem. We had other issues, language was not one of them.

The second relationship, a RW, once again when I met her on line, she had limited English; I plan to meet her on January 21, I am quite sure she would be fully conversant by then. She has immersed herself in English.

For young educated women, learning English, if they devote time and energy to it, is not very difficult.

The desire of these women to learn English as quickly as possible, shows their commitment to marry a foreign husband and move to his country.

Had I insisted on English speaking only, I have missed out on both of them.

I think more important is the method of finding the girl, if you try to build a relationship with one woman, you will find RW/UW very serious and willing to compromise and put in a lot of efforts.

RW/ UW really hate it when a WM comes in fishing for women, and they can figure it out. So don't think that she would not know it.

AW are not so sensitive to single guy dating many women, RW are very much so.

Another poster alluded that OP should find ONE girl who is glad that he called and is happy to hear his voice whenever he calls, English or no English, probably the best advise of all the posts in this thread.

Whenever I call my girl, her joy is infectous, I can feel it thousands of miles away; she struggles with her English, she tries hard;  it does not take a genius to figure out when a girl is happy to hear your voice or to meet you in person. She would melt, and you can see it. I have had the good fortune of experiencing both of these with RW/UW; English or no English.

I have no intention of learning any Russian, since I would have little use for it. Both of my girls did not see any reason for me to learn Russian and neither one suggested.

[Daveman]

Nothing is absolute, absolutely.

There are a gazillion discussions on this board dating to its inception, and then proceding further back on the time line to the previous board which seemed to have spawned this one (for a latecomer as myself, board histiry is a little fuzzy).

I am of the opinion that it can be a fun ride, but as with most fun rides, it will eventually end. It really is, after the initial lust wears thin, just too much of a complete and resounding PITA in most every way (I write 'most' only becuase perhaps there is something I haven't thought of, but outside of bet covering I would emphatically say - PITA in every single way imagineable).

Stories such as I/O's, as wonderful as they may be, are indeed the exception.

I love to read the "Failure Is Not An Option" rhetoric.  It might not be listed on the menu but chances are that you'll be served a heaping, steaming hot plate of it.

Interpreters are okay, but really, I got tired of hearing "Oh God.. YESSSS" coming from the corner chair.  So I asked her to join.  That certainly fired off a round of Russian Jealousy - even after I tried to explain my hearing difficulty.

Joking aside, at times the relationship is almost as completely absurd as the idiotic paragraph above. Really... "WTF?" will become integral part of your daily thought process and you'll have gouges in your scalp from the fingernail overuseage.

Most guys don't find love/marriage/life long happiness on their first (or more) attempt even with a common language. The inability to communicate effectively drags out the process to the nth degree.  Almost any idiot can get laid/visa/married to an (x)W.  It's the staying power which becomes a challenge as communication, friendship, negotiation skills and patience outside the bedroom take the relationship reins from sheer condomaniacal passion.  Common language is paramount in deciding:

Fit together?
Fit together?
Fit together!

---- prior to Visa/marriage/etc

Of course it can be done with time, massive amounts of effort, patience, massive amounts of effort, time, ad infinitum nauseum regaiyetum... will it? probably not times ten.

Would I personally ever try another Lingvo'lation? unlikely.  I enjoy the peaceful refuge of sanity a little too much to give it up.

It's worked for others and I must applaud them for succeeding against the odds. But anyone reading this thread should understand that *you* oh mighty wonder of maleness, will probably not follow in their footsteps.

Dave

[ScottinCrimea]

ambach, the truth is that you just don't have the experience to have a reasonable opinion and most of your comments fly in the face of reason as presented by those with much more experience than you and who actually have had some success.