Dating Non-English Speakers: Opinions please

[OlgaH]

Olga: How on earth did you come up with that?  :selfharm:

I/O

Sorry if I have misunderstood you, you have written : When her sole aim in doing so is finding a foreign husband, AKA leaving her country...

A woman placing her profile on international dating website (free or through an agency) do it with only one aim - to meet her future foreign husband... Why foreign? every woman has her own reason. But your statement sounds as all women who are looking (or already found) a foreign husband do it only for one purpose - leaving their native country for another country...

[mspanky]

 My single argument with not speaking a foreign language is that women are thought to fall in love with their ears. How a man communicates verbally to her is very important Therefore if there is a lack of common language can she really fall in love with you or just who she thinks u are.

  Or are women just like men and prone to falling in love with their eyes too? We can't have it both ways. Say men fall in love with their eyes and women are more forgiving and look more into who he is. Then disagree with the fact she falls in love with her ears as it is the only way she has to gauge what type of a man you are and if you are worthy of her love. But then again there are women who fall in love with their eyes so if there is no common language and she is definately in love perhaps you do look like Brad Pitt.

[Simoni]

What is this that she doesn't like here? After all these years?

She was not seeking the US as a new home. She came here to be with me.  She would love us to live in Ukraine.

She does like it here.  But she LOVES her homeland, and her family and many friends there.  She has been home for visits 7 times in 3 years.  I see that as a positive, BTW.

[KenC]

I would not be so focused on the language skills. It is more about the person, if the person is right I am sure a lady can learn English well with intensive language classes. The fiance visa can take almost 12 months and during this period private English classes in Ukraine can do wonders. Also with today's technology, the learning curve is steep.

Silverbullet,
Of course it is all dependent upon the woman in question.  So how can you have even the slightest idea of who she is without being able to converse with her?  I know couples have "succeeded" without having a common language in the beginning.  So what was the reason for pursuing the relationship in the beginning?  A pretty face?  A well written profile? (Which had to be written by someone else BTW)  It cannot be any part of her personality because you simply do not know it.

Kudos to those who have been able to bridge the language gap!  To me, dating or marrying a woman whom with you cannot fully communicate, is like opening a Christmas present today and not finding out if it is a diamond or a lump of coal until years later.

In my experience it takes at least two years for the lady to really become proficient in a new language and almost 8 years to get a good grip on the nuances.

I agree with HiTech when he says:

I do believe that the odds of running into a women who either is a pro dater, or a GCG 2nd degree, is higher if you date an English speaker than non English speaker.

 Even though having English skills may be a requirement for a GCG, it does not necessarily make all RW proficient in English a GCG.  This is hard enough to pull off with a common language, I personally could not imagine it without.

When a RW takes it upon herself to learn English in order to better her chances of meeting a man from an English speaking country, I do not think it is a negative thing at all.  I think it shows the woman is taking a most logical and responsible action.  After all, doesn't she deserve to be able to understand what it is she is getting into also?
KenC

[Diplomacy]

Very well Said Kenc.

[GoodOlBoy]

.....If my husband’s car were hit by stupid deer, I wouldn’t come back to SPb. I’ve spent six years here, and I’ve created a new life! I learned how to drive. I planted so many shrubs and flowers in our yard and painted the inside of the house. I have a stable job (keeping my fingers crossed) and have my 401K (that is rapidly depreciating, but it’s another story.) I’ve got new friends. My daughter graduated from NYU, and she is building her career based on her American education. She lives in NYC and she likes it there. All in all, I don’t want to start my life from scratch again in case something happened to my dear husband. Does it make our marriage unstable? Not at all. I love Michael, and I love the rest of my American life outside our home as well!.....

GalinaF my wife completely agrees with you.

Marina would NEVER go back to Siberia and start all over again...... and why should she??

I am curious. I read what you have done for yourself here in America, BUT what provisions has your husband made for you in case of his passing??

Do you have to fight over the "table scraps" with his children or grandchildren (I don't know your husband's age, but we have "older" married RWD member's with long extended families)?

In other words do you have to fight for your share of the house or monies or has your husband provided for you?

I have very strong personal feelings about "uprooting" a nice young RW/UW, bringing her here to the Good Ol' USA and not providing for her after your demise.

I can say that I have personally seen how some estate's were settled here in America by families after somebody's death.

I am also going to say it was really sad how people behaved after their Father passed away. I have actually witnessed verbal fighting over the "table scraps" left behind. Some family member's I know, still don't talk to each other because they feel like they "didn't get enough of the pie".

IMHO as a Man, to think to one's self, "Oh well, if I die, she can just get on a plane and go back home" is totally irresponsible and SELFISH thinking.

GOB

[Misha]

She was not seeking the US as a new home. She came here to be with me. 

There is a French proverb/saying that goes as follows: "Qui prend mari prend pays" or "Who takes a husband takes a country." The idea is that if you marry a man from another village or another country, you invariably leave your country to be with him. At some point IMHO a woman has to take root in her new country. Yes, she may be there with her husband, but she also has to develop friendship and ties in her new country. Over the years, it is normal that a woman (or a man in certain cases) settle and put roots down. From my point of view, you shouldn't live as an expatriate suitcases packed ready to leave at any moment your entire life. At some point you have to commit yourself to your new country.

[Simoni]

Those seeking an fsu woman today will find that over the last few years that the USA has developed a negative perception.  That has to be overcome as your lady lives in her new home.  Gradually, it will.

Ties do need to be developed in the new home. Already, we have many friends here.  We had to cut our wedding list to 75, and that was difficult.

But back to my original point.  If my wife found herself alone with a three year old, I have no doubt she would return to Ukraine for the support of her family there.  We have no family in the area where we live, so perhaps that makes more sense to you?

Now, if you flash ahead ten more years, then I think the decision would be different.

Law-- sorry for the topic drift.  But I'll conclude now by saying that even with fluent English, Marina would not stay here.  She would go home.  However, she does have friends from North Russia that would NOT go home.  I guess it depends how attractive the place you came from is.  In her case, Dnepr is a modern, European type city of almost two million people, and her flat is in the city center, overlooking the river.  I had to work hard to equal her living environment here.

[SMS60]

But I do believe that the odds of running into a women who either is a pro dater, or a GCG 2nd degree, is higher if you date an English speaker than non English speaker. I have not facts to back this up, but it would seem logical to m

I disagree with this to an extent. Actually if you put yourself in the womens position, it would be easier to scam a " weak " WM by not being proficient in English. Look at all the excuses for money because you cannot speak English. You can always play the I didn't understand excuse and the list goes on.

A pro dater or GCG who is street smart and not proficient in English will clean a WM wallet fairly easy since the guy is not thinking logically. Some men will play the " captain save a women" simply because she does not speak the same language. Lots of wimpy men have this attitude.

I agree some relationships can work without a common language but my question would always be, how do you know if it is sincere?

I'm the believer in the saying "does actions match the words?" I think over time you find out if this is true about the person you are dating. If it is not you have a problem.

[Gator]

Rather than concentrating on the need to communicate and ignoring the negative small possibility that she is looking for a mule, there are some important positive aspects about a RW who has learned a second language:

-  A second language suggests education, good taste, and refinement.  Over my long years, I have dated many foreign women in America and abroad.  I was always proud to introduce a foreign date to my English speaking friends and having her converse with them with substance and without hesitation.  My kind of woman.  In fact, I found it sexier than unhindered, gravity defying breasts.  The two together, well…..

-  It suggests intelligence and intellectual curiosity.  Language ability is one measure of intelligence.  A desire to learn a language identifies someone who probably has many interests and enjoys learning about everything.   Again, my kind of woman.

-  It suggests both a sense of adventure and an interest in the global community.   Enhancing travel experience is but one small advantage - a second language makes one feel part of the global community.   Such could be key to a better job.  I assert that a RW with a sense of adventure and an interest in global community will find it much easier to make her cross-cultural marriage work and to adjust to her new country, at least with me.

[Misha]

If my wife found herself alone with a three year old, I have no doubt she would return to Ukraine for the support of her family there. 

I do understand where she is coming from. In my case, I specifically looked for a woman who did not have such strong ties to her family.

Getting back to Law's question, this is why sharing a common language with my wife was essential: I was able to communicate with her effectively and really know who she was. I had my criteria and talking to her was the only way of knowing whether we would be an acceptable. It would have been difficult (if not impossible) to do this if I did not spend time with her and could not have a conversation with her.

[Misha]

-  A second language suggests education, good taste, and refinement.

I agree, but it does not mean that the second language was English. My wife had studied German, but that was not very useful in Canada.

[Doll]

I myself am not sure if I would go back is something happens to my husband. My older lives in Russia, my younger is here and he's been here here for almost half of his life (he is 15, came over when he was which means his life is here- school, friends, way of life. I myself am accustomed to this life. I don't think I am going back though never say never.

[Faux Pas]

Rather than concentrating on the need to communicate and ignoring the negative small possibility that she is looking for a mule, there are some important positive aspects about a RW who has learned a second language:

-  A second language suggests education, good taste, and refinement.  

-  It suggests intelligence and intellectual curiosity.  

-  It suggests both a sense of adventure and an interest in the global community.

I agree with all your suggestions. I've noticed this thread for several pages at least has taken on a theme of negativity toward FSU women who took the initiative to learn English or another language.  IMO the chances of a woman learning a second language to become a GCG, while a possibility, are quite small. Mastering a second language takes immense time, study and effort. Most women looking for a mule would hardly invest their resources there IMO. I have seen thieves break into property that with the same effort at a paying job could have made them much more money for the effort. But the idea of work repulses them. I would equate a GCG with a thief's mentality.

I personally, wouldn't for a minute consider a woman who took the time to learn a second language consider she did it for nefarious reasons. My own daughter who is fluent in 3 languages (I have the receipts to prove it), learnt them out of interest in linguistics. She has no desire to marry a Spanish or Frenchman or move to their country.I know first hand the fortitude required for such an achievement. If an FSUW did in fact learn a second language for the purpose of marrying a foreigner, why is that a bad trait? I don't see where it suggests that she wouldn't love the man she chose to marry. I would see such a lady as a prize catch. Intellectual, determined and ambitious are not bad personal traits.

[Misha]

My older lives in Russia, my younger is here and he's been here here for almost half of his life (he is 15, came over when he was which means his life is here- school, friends, way of life.

One of our acquaintances who has been in Canada for 5 or 6 years keeps saying that she wants to go back to Russia. However, her son in his early 20s lives here, works here, has a pick-up truck and a girlfriend and of course has no intention of ever going back to Russia. His doting mother "has" to stay here because she is on a mission to try to convince his that he must go to college or university to get an education 

[Turboguy]

I think I would be a little more concerned about a woman who seriously was looking for a husband overseas and was not making an effort to learn English.   If I was serious about a woman and she was not learning English it would be a big red flag.

I agree with HiTech, Scammers and serial daters almost always make the effort to learn English.  They are serious about getting your money.   I encountered too many scammers in my search and most but not all knew a fair amount of English.

As far as when I was in the searching stage I never paid much attention to the ability to speak English.   Making that a priority reduces the number of women available by 80% or more.  To me English knowledge is a temporary problem.  By the time you make a commitment and wait for the K-1 there is time for her learn to be able to communicate.   I can think back to my former friend Helen from San Francisco who arrived in the USA knowing one sentence of English (she could say "I am hungry").  She did fine and when I knew here she was very fluent.

On the other hand, the wife I ended up with was quite fluent in English.  Perhaps that is why we connected.  We were able to communicate.   Even if you don't search for an English speaking woman you may find the one that really attracts you is the one you can share ideas, dreams and feelings with.  

[Misha]

To me English knowledge is a temporary problem.  By the time you make a commitment and wait for the K-1 there is time for her learn to be able to communicate.

You write this above, and follow with this:

 
On the other hand, the wife I ended up with was quite fluent in English.  Perhaps that is why we connected.  We were able to communicate.

So you are saying that not knowing English is not a problem, but you married a woman and the fact that she spoke English is the likely reason you connected. It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself.

Even if you don't search for an English speaking woman you may find the one that really attracts you is the one you can share ideas, dreams and feelings with.  

So, which is it Turbo? You say that language is important while saying that language is not import.  :noidea:

[HiTech]

KenC wrote.

To me, dating or marrying a woman whom with you cannot fully communicate, is like opening a Christmas present today and not finding out if it is a diamond or a lump of coal until years later.

I agree with the sentiment, but  communication is very different than a common language.

One thing I am starting to notice is this thread is people who have not seriously dated a non English speaker associate lack of a common language with not communicating. You can absolutely fully communicate, but it does require more effort and time.

HiTech

[GalinaF]

I am curious. I read what you have done for yourself here in America, BUT what provisions has your husband made for you in case of his passing??

Do you have to fight over the "table scraps" with his children or grandchildren (I don't know your husband's age, but we have "older" married RWD member's with long extended families)?

In other words do you have to fight for your share of the house or monies or has your husband provided for you?

I have to say that I’ve got used to rely on myself in the first place rather than on anyone else under any circumstances… My husband and I have joint bank accounts, and I’m responsible for paying our bills and keeping track of our finances in general. So, if something happened to Michael, I’ll have the same access to the money we have in the bank as I have now.  As for the equity in the house and Michael’s pension plan, these assets will be divided according to the CT law between me and Michael’s daughter. I wish we made our wills to avoid any misunderstandings, but when I think how much effort I’ll have to put into convincing my husband that we should actually see a lawyer, I give up… Anyway, I put my husband and my daughter as my beneficiaries on my life insurance and my 401K plan, so my conscience is clear.

[KenC]

KenC wrote.
I agree with the sentiment, but  communication is very different than a common language.

One thing I am starting to notice is this thread is people who have not seriously dated a non English speaker associate lack of a common language with not communicating. You can absolutely fully communicate, but it does require more effort and time.
HiTech

Sorry HiTech, but I have to disagree with the highlighted statement.  You cannot possibly communicate fully with a woman that you do not share a common language because it takes so much time and effort.  There is not always the time and the desire to put forth such an effort.  I think that couples that cannot communicate in the same language are taking a huge risk and quite frankly are missing out of the finer details of having a relationship.  But that is me, I guess.  I know I could never have the patience or the guts to go down that path.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Misha, I think what I said to word it in a clear short manner was that I never cared much in my search if a woman had good English or not but the girl I ended up marrying has excellent English and it is very possible that in her case it did make a difference.  

I can recall my wife telling me late at night on the last night of my first visit that guys will tell a girl anything.  I believe it and I think women will often do the same.  If you rely on what someone says for all your information you are going to end up marrying a stranger anyway, at least sometimes.  

When I think back to some of the women I passed on it was rarely something they said.  Sometimes the things they said would melt my heart.  It was the things I observed.  When I think back to Natasha, one of the first women I met (no English at all) the real turn off for me was that she spent half her time screaming at her mom and dad.  I had no idea what she was screaming about.  I couldn't understand a word.  I just figured if she was screaming at them now she would be screaming at me if I married her.   The things she told me would have melted the coldest heart.

I could make a long list of similar examples but I won't.  I think we form a lot of our judgements observing how they act with family, how they act with friends, how they treat waiters.   You don't need a common language to see those things.   I can't recall very many ever saying anything that made me think they would be a good or bad choice other than basic things that can be done through an interpreter.

I can't say I ever felt very connected with a woman talking through an interpreter.  I did spend time with women who had little or no English writing notes and translating on an electronic translator and felt a connection.   With my first fiancee we spent the first two days with an interpreter and I was ready to move on.  We spent the next 3 days writing notes and using an electronic calculator and I felt connected.   I do think communication was a big problem for the two of us but not because of language.

Had things not worked out with my wife my next trip would have been back to Ukraine to follow up with two from Jack's tour and neither spoke any English.

If we really fell in love with the inner person then why will a hot woman with a great build but a nasty personality have men falling all over them and a fat plain looking woman with a heart of gold and a great personality be sitting home watching TV?

I think we fall in love in different ways.   My wife is beautiful and has a great figure and amazing eyes but what I really fell in love with was her mind.    Despite differences that could potentially be devastating we are like best friends and I really enjoy just being with her, talking to her and working together to build a life that we are both happy with.  Falling in love that way takes a common language.  Falling in love with a great face and hot body and someone who treats you fairly well does not.

Personally I think there is no answer to the question about dating non-English speakers.   I think the biggest variable to that question is us.   I have never met Gator but do I think he needs a woman with fluent English,  Absolutely.  For him serious discussions of world events and complex issues is critical to his happiness.  For KenC, I think quite certainly.  For me, I don't think it was a big deal.  I have the guts and patience to go down that path and I think I could have been very happy with a girl with little or no English and I think with the particular qualities I have we would have had few difficulties.   From the general impressions I have of Law I think he could marry a gal with no English in the beginning and be successful.  

[AnastassiaAsh]

I would never use a translator.  Everyone I know had problems with their translator.  One thing they do is to keep the couple in a "getting to know" each other phase.  This also leads to a "failed" trip or more trips for the translator.  The translator doesn't want the couple to becomes serious because then the couple might want to be alone and not require a translator.

Avoid translators if at all possible.  An electronic translator and/or a dictionary are much better in the long run.

Enot, sorry for your bad experience, but maybe I can remedy that somehow? 

I always try to encourage people to start talking directly with their women, dropping me gradually. At first yes, but at some point it absolutely has to happen. Translators won't be there all the time and after all it should be about feelings, emotions and spiritual connection expressed with the language only between two of you...

Also, the more a man has to offer, the higher his standards are and he can offer them to a lady too, the more he would be inclined to communicating only with those women whose English is good or fluent. Yes, the odds become even smaller, but at that point, in my opinion, it doesn't matter if there are 100 or 10 ladies, he will click only with one or two at the end any way.

So, I encourage you to start your search with those who know the language, only later after some time if you are totally unsuccessful, then widen your other criteria, like maybe age....still don't change language criteria. You will be thankful at the end.

[I/O]

Sorry if I have misunderstood you, you have written : When her sole aim in doing so is finding a foreign husband, AKA leaving her country...

A woman placing her profile on international dating website (free or through an agency) do it with only one aim - to meet her future foreign husband... Why foreign? every woman has her own reason. But your statement sounds as all women who are looking (or already found) a foreign husband do it only for one purpose - leaving their native country for another country...

Olga: Your comments highlight something to me and that is the difficulty of communicating between people or across nations etc even WITH common language. Too many examples in this thread alone to go back over them all. In part I have communicated to you correctly or you have understood correctly (Depending on how one chooses to look at it). Yes I do have concerns (And always did) with women who are hyper focused on marrying into another country at the exclusion of all else, likewise I have concerns with guys who are hyper focused on marrying a Russian Woman at the exclusion of all else. The question always begs, why? Nevertheless, I was in no way attempting to imply all women on international dating sites have undesirable agendas, although as an aside, my past experience suggested a high percentage of the undesirable element inhabits many if not most dating sites.

Jet: If, as you seem to be implying, one can't know if someone has an undesirable agenda even with common language, it would all come down to the notion, whichever way one approached it, whatever one did, it is nothing more than a roll of the dice and that I simply cannot agree with.

Apparently some are supporting of either a man or a woman being focused on marrying to a particular location first and foremost and perhaps I am the one who is not? I doubt any of us will change our opinion.

Gator: The woman you speak of who embraces language as part of her educational and social refinement, the woman who desires a worldly knowledge and ability to articulate is, IMO, as you say, a highly attractive person. Whether or not that rivals the physical attributes you elude to is........................ BTW, Mrs could handle herself in 4 languages rather well when we met but at that time, one of them was not English. Now my shortcomings and mistakes can be adequately articulated to me in 5 languages. I guess that is progress.

I/O

 

[SANDRO43]

Having been both a long time ago, I'm always astonished at the terminological confusion : translators deal with written text, verbal communication is the venue of interpreters .

[AnastassiaAsh]

Sandro, for some it is too deep to comprehend. 
You have been chasing my posts for the whole week, haven't you?  How is that cigar and a glass of wine doing? Do you have any Christmas pictures in Italy?