Dating Non-English Speakers: Opinions please

[SANDRO43]

You have been chasing my posts for the whole week, haven't you? 

Not really, only when prompted by some weird statement .

How is that cigar and a glass of wine doing? 

I DON'T smoke cigars, only cigarettes. Used to smoke a pipe as a youth, just to give myself a more mature look (see attached A Portrait Of The Artist As A Young Chemist ).

Do you have any Christmas pictures in Italy?

I don't, at my age it's become a very boring repetition .

[Chicagoguy]

A little off topic.

My fiance has been studing English since we applied for the K-1 visa. But I understand it will be nothing compared to what happens when she arrives. It is not enough.

So we have ESL classes nearby and she will go. How do you feel about the level of help in these classes ?  And how about software RosettaStone ? All 4 levels ?

As an aside to other comments, she has told me many times she will live anywhere in the world as long as I am with her. I actually gave some thought to trying Russia but living in the U.S. is propably easier - at least for me

Thanks

[KenC]

Chi-town,
You get what you pay for IMO.  Free classes are a start but do not expect too much out of them.  Check with your local community college for better classes.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Chicago, there are some really good resources on the internet as well.  I could probably get my wife to put together a list of some of the better ones for you once your fiancee arrives if you wanted.

My wife took the free ESL classes here for a while.  They are good but I will agree with Ken, you might be able to find better, particularly if you live in Chicago which should have a lot of resources.  In my wife's case she was probably a little too advanced when she started to gain as much as some others might.

[ECOCKS]

Get her there, surround her with supportive, positive family members speaking nothing but English and keep the radio tuned on a station she likes.  Get her singing - you'll be amazed at what happens next.

You should also consider having her sign up for not just English courses but also taking Russian courses at the local college.  She can begin tutoring others and it forces her into non-threatening translation and conversation between English and Russian.

Added suggestion:

When her English reaches the Intermediate level, put away her Russian-English dictionary and get an all English one as well as a Thesaurus.  Have her watching movies only in English with English subtitles.

I think the software (all of it) is a waste of time.

PS: Avoid other Russian speakers who may live in the community.

[SANDRO43]

Chicago, there are some really good resources on the internet as well.  I could probably get my wife to put together a list of some of the better ones for you once your fiancee arrives if you wanted.

Which she could add to the RWDpedia (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/mwiki/index.php?title=Learn_English_%28for_FSU_people%29) as a permanent reference available to all and sundry .

[groovlstk]

PS: Avoid other Russian speakers who may live in the community.

IMHO this can backfire. When your woman initially arrives she is going to be overwhelmed with euphoria for a short time and then homesickness will likely set in. The benefits of having those few links to her homeland and culture (e.g., Russian speaking local friends, Russian TV, etc.) far outweighs any expediency that totally immersing her in English can provide. I'd also caution against using tough love to speed her adjustment by forbidding her to do x,y, or z for her own good - YMMV and all women are different, but too much of that and you can come off as a control freak.

I know if I had behaved this way when my wife first arrived, she'd have packed her bags within a few weeks and been back in Moscow for good. There's a very, very fine line between acting as a guiding hand and a clenched fist, and despite your best intentions she may see you as the latter if you're not careful. 

[Doll]

PS: Avoid other Russian speakers who may live in the community.

Like what?

[ECOCKS]

"PS: Avoid other Russian speakers who may live in the community."

sigh......

This is in the context of language learning.  The poster was asking about purchasing software for improving her skills and stated that the lessons in Ukraine she has been taking are not going to be "enough."  She will acquire language faster if she is immersed in a group of non-Russian speakers who do not keep translating for her. 

It is a simple, validated educational concept so don't start putting words in my mouth.  No one said lock her up or forbid her to do anything, it is just the answer to his question.  My wife will be moving into a community where there is effectively no Russian-speaking population.  This is much the case throughout the US.  As it is, other expat husbands here in Kyiv all comment on the fact that our wives revert to the path of least resistance when in a group.  It slows down language acquisition.

Of course if the priority becomes her mental health due to homesickness and ennui then you take watever steps you can to take care of her.

[Doll]

I understand this "more English, less Russian" My question was about this very sentence "Avoid Russian speakers" Like what? You avoid or you get your wife avoid? How? Tell her what to do and what to not?

[ECOCKS]

Have her avoid them.

Or don't.

It is merely advice on how to get her English skills up to "enough" as fast as possible.  That is all. 

Personally, I don't care who my wife hangs out with and the selection of our home city did not even consider the presence, or lack thereof, of a Russian-speaking population.

As for the long-term effects of homesickness and culturalization, where you live is a joint decision, or should have been.  Tough love has far less to do with anything than dealing with realities.  As I mentioned before, try to imagine her reaction to spending two years after she gets there trying to get her language skills up to a level where she can get anything over a minimum wage job. Three years.  Four years.

I had an email from a guy earlier this evening whose wife had 2 Masters degree here and was only able to find a job in retail back stateside.  Another much the same whose wife is sick of cleaning hotel rooms for the last three years and being denied call center jobs since she speaks Russian and Ukrainian but insufficient English.  My future daughter-in-law is devastated that after three interviews with the local Intercontinental Hotel they told her that her English is simply "not good enough" to work there.  Two years ago we tried to get her to take English classes (at our expense) and she had other things more important to do.  My step-son's answer to why he doesn't work on his English has been zatra, zatra.  He was shocked when Aval Bank turned him down due to insufficient English skills despite having his Bachelors degree in Management and a Masters in Computer Science.

If it isn't a priority, then don't treat it as one and do what you want.  Just accept the consequences.  If it is a priority, look over the advice (from ALL sources) and do what you have the resources and circumstances to do.

[Doll]

Have her avoid them.

[Chicagoguy]

ECOCKS,

I can see your logic about the Russian speaking community. I have seen people who have lived here 10 years who don't understand any English because they spend all their time with fellow travelers. From many countries. Lucky for me this Russian speaking community is a hour away from me.

Two months ago I called my Ukrainian friend and the father-in law answered and I asked for Eugene. He hung up on me. He only knows him as Evgeney. After over 10 years ! And this man is intelligent. Retired as a vice president at Severstal.

Think Brighton Beach, New York. But this was Miami. There are supposed to be 145,000 Russians in the Chicago area.

But I believe my wife will get homesick if she can't find at least ONE kindred soul. She loves to talk !

Thanks everybody for your constructive comments.

[BC]

Is all this about marriage or child rearing? 

[ECOCKS]

It's about adult english language acquisition, establishing priorities and balancing having a non-English speaking spouse in a different cultural environment.

[Doll]

It's about adult english language acquisition, establishing priorities and balancing having a non-English speaking spouse in a different cultural environment.

let her establish the priorities  and also balance herself

[BC]

It's about adult english language acquisition, establishing priorities and balancing having a non-English speaking spouse in a different cultural environment.

Well that's a problem (or maybe not) that the couple getting into it will have to resolve. They'll figger it out or bust.

Much of the US is bi-lingual anyway.. I was a bit amazed the other day calling a rather large national company in the US and their voicemail had a language choice.  Spanish might be easier for her to learn.

[Vaughn]

It's about adult english language acquisition

It certainly is. I see where ECOCK's use of the word "avoid" wrankled the control police,
but I understood him immediately. Case in point: My wife's first job in the USA was in a
banking environment, behind the scenes. No customer contact, and a horde of Russian
speakers present in a large department. It was a good way for her to get her feet wet
in an American workplace, but detrimental to her language progress. Add to that mix the
fact that we were conversing in quite a bit of Russian at home. Shame on me, but it was
a measure of comfort for us personally.

Then I turned off my Russian at the advice of respected friends, both American and FSU.
Now she works in a totally English-speaking environment, and her abilities in everyday
conversation have blossomed.

The gettogethers we host and attend with many FSU folks are heavily celebrated in English.
Deep conversations are another story altogether.

Well that's a problem (or maybe not) that the couple getting into it will have to resolve. They'll figger it out or bust.

Exactly, BC.

[SilverBUllet]

Have her avoid them.

Or don't.

It is merely advice on how to get her English skills up to "enough" as fast as possible.  That is all. 

Personally, I don't care who my wife hangs out with and the selection of our home city did not even consider the presence, or lack thereof, of a Russian-speaking population.

As for the long-term effects of homesickness and culturalization, where you live is a joint decision, or should have been.  Tough love has far less to do with anything than dealing with realities.  As I mentioned before, try to imagine her reaction to spending two years after she gets there trying to get her language skills up to a level where she can get anything over a minimum wage job. Three years.  Four years.

I had an email from a guy earlier this evening whose wife had 2 Masters degree here and was only able to find a job in retail back stateside.  Another much the same whose wife is sick of cleaning hotel rooms for the last three years and being denied call center jobs since she speaks Russian and Ukrainian but insufficient English.  My future daughter-in-law is devastated that after three interviews with the local Intercontinental Hotel they told her that her English is simply "not good enough" to work there.  Two years ago we tried to get her to take English classes (at our expense) and she had other things more important to do.  My step-son's answer to why he doesn't work on his English has been zatra, zatra.  He was shocked when Aval Bank turned him down due to insufficient English skills despite having his Bachelors degree in Management and a Masters in Computer Science.

If it isn't a priority, then don't treat it as one and do what you want.  Just accept the consequences.  If it is a priority, look over the advice (from ALL sources) and do what you have the resources and circumstances to do.

Having lived in several countries myself with different languages (Scandinavian, German and English), it can not be stressed enough that excellent language skills in the local language is a MUST. Doesn't matter if you have a foreign PhD, Masters and the like if you can hardly speak the language. Otherwise the lady will be stuck with retail jobs at Wal-Mart, or as a hotel maid making min. wage. I speak 5 languages by the way and have learned this the hard way myself. My next is Russian I guess 

First, forget about the overseas education you have, not worth too much in the US. You need to be re-certified so to say.

Enroll at a university and work towards a Bachelor degree. At the same time you learn English too. Tough for someone with a lot of overseas degrees, but it is a different game her. You need to be good in English and you need a US degree in order to succeed. If you are not willing to do this, you can perhaps succeed as an entrpeneur and build your way from that. If you want to join corporate America and chase a good paying job, education and language skills are a must. Even all the hi-tech workers from India in the US suffer and hit a glass ceiling in organization since they talk with a heavy Indian accent. They don't imporve their language, stays in local ghettos and think their education and skills are enough.

Then as already indicated, avoid the local ethnic "ghettos", Russians and Ukrainians in the US. They will slow down the learning of English as a new language and many are dissatisfied and discontent by their own shortcomings in America, so not always a motivating force for a newcomer. Then there is Skype video calling, a MUST to stay in touch with the home country instead. Set the parent or sieblings up with a notebook, a hi-res video camera, a 3G cell phone with internet access. Then it is easy to stay in touch with family and friends. And yes, be prepeared for an annual trip to Ukraine   

[groovlstk]

Then as already indicated, avoid the local ethnic "ghettos", Russians and Ukrainians in the US. They will slow down the learning of English as a new language and many are dissatisfied and discontent by their own shortcomings in America, so not always a motivating force for a newcomer

Again, this sounds great in theory if you're talking about a child or giving advice to someone relocating to a new country for work. I can only comment from my own experience, but wearing the teacher/mentor cap 24/7 quickly wears thin. Picture a very independent woman who owns her own flat, has a good job, etc., relocating to a strange country and suddenly being 100% dependent on you. You can prepare all you want while waiting for the K1 and you can explain this situation to her until you're blue in the face, but until she experiences it she'll never truly understand how helpless she's going to be for so many simple functions that she long ago took for granted (like operating an oven or washer/dryer, grocery shopping, etc.). Balancing the teacher/mentor role with the husband/lover role isn't easy - overstep your boundaries by pointing out something obvious to her and bingo you're the perfect punching bag for her pent-up frustrations about feeling like a child again. The only positive side to all this is that it's only temporary.

Again, I can only report what worked for us, but very early after my wife's arrival I realized I would have to pick my spots when it came to playing the mentor/teacher, which sometimes meant I had to let her screw up on her own and learn from the experience rather than press her to do what I knew was best (or at least most expedient). I'll also add that of course there are situations where the stakes are too high to let her fall down - but pushing her to avoid expats because they might slow down her English acquisition isn't one of them.

All in all, my wife had a pretty easy time integrating compared to other couples we know, but even so it was a big challenge for us, much bigger than anything we faced during courtship.

[SilverBUllet]

Again, this sounds great in theory if you're talking about a child or giving advice to someone relocating to a new country for work. I can only comment from my own experience, but wearing the teacher/mentor cap 24/7 quickly wears thin. Picture a very independent woman who owns her own flat, has a good job, etc., relocating to a strange country and suddenly being 100% dependent on you. You can prepare all you want while waiting for the K1 and you can explain this situation to her until you're blue in the face, but until she experiences it she'll never truly understand how helpless she's going to be for so many simple functions that she long ago took for granted (like operating an oven or washer/dryer, grocery shopping, etc.). Balancing the teacher/mentor role with the husband/lover role isn't easy - overstep your boundaries by pointing out something obvious to her and bingo you're the perfect punching bag for her pent-up frustrations about feeling like a child again. The only positive side to all this is that it's only temporary.

Again, I can only report what worked for us, but very early after my wife's arrival I realized I would have to pick my spots when it came to playing the mentor/teacher, which sometimes meant I had to let her screw up on her own and learn from the experience rather than press her to do what I knew was best (or at least most expedient). I'll also add that of course there are situations where the stakes are too high to let her fall down - but pushing her to avoid expats because they might slow down her English acquisition isn't one of them.

All in all, my wife had a pretty easy time integrating compared to other couples we know, but even so it was a big challenge for us, much bigger than anything we faced during courtship.

Yeah, I hear you. It can be a motivation too of course meeting other Russians /Ukraininas in the new country and speak the local language and learn from each other. One thing that may work well is to go on some vacations abroad so the lady get a feel for differences compared to her home country. That thinsg can be different to what she is used to on good and not so good terms. 

[pitbull]

First, forget about the overseas education you have, not worth too much in the US. You need to be re-certified so to say.

Enroll at a university and work towards a Bachelor degree. At the same time you learn English too. Tough for someone with a lot of overseas degrees, but it is a different game her. You need to be good in English and you need a US degree in order to succeed.

 

If a woman has a Masters or a PhD from FSU, going for a US undergraduate degree is a total waste of time. Bad advice. A US graduate degree may be very helpful though. If her English is not good enough for grad school upon arrival, it's best to take college-level English classes for a while and then go to grad school. Many well educated FSU women have good English by default (isn't one or two foreign languages a part of what constitutes an educated professional nowadays anyway  )

[Doll]

Again, this sounds great in theory if you're talking about a child or giving advice to someone relocating to a new country for work. I can only comment from my own experience, but wearing the teacher/mentor cap 24/7 quickly wears thin. Picture a very independent woman who owns her own flat, has a good job, etc., relocating to a strange country and suddenly being 100% dependent on you. You can prepare all you want while waiting for the K1 and you can explain this situation to her until you're blue in the face, but until she experiences it she'll never truly understand how helpless she's going to be for so many simple functions that she long ago took for granted (like operating an oven or washer/dryer, grocery shopping, etc.). Balancing the teacher/mentor role with the husband/lover role isn't easy - overstep your boundaries by pointing out something obvious to her and bingo you're the perfect punching bag for her pent-up frustrations about feeling like a child again. The only positive side to all this is that it's only temporary.

Again, I can only report what worked for us, but very early after my wife's arrival I realized I would have to pick my spots when it came to playing the mentor/teacher, which sometimes meant I had to let her screw up on her own and learn from the experience rather than press her to do what I knew was best (or at least most expedient). I'll also add that of course there are situations where the stakes are too high to let her fall down - but pushing her to avoid expats because they might slow down her English acquisition isn't one of them.

All in all, my wife had a pretty easy time integrating compared to other couples we know, but even so it was a big challenge for us, much bigger than anything we faced during courtship.

Excellent!

[SilverBUllet]

If a woman has a Masters or a PhD from FSU, going for a US undergraduate degree is a total waste of time. Bad advice. A US graduate degree may be very helpful though. If her English is not good enough for grad school upon arrival, it's best to take college-level English classes for a while and then go to grad school. Many well educated FSU women have good English by default (isn't one or two foreign languages a part of what constitutes an educated professional nowadays anyway  )

I don't think a Master or PhD will give you access to a Masters program at a good university in the US. An undergrad level is where most will have to start. It is not a matter of if it is a waste of time or not, one just need to be re-certified in the US system. Otherwise forget about any good jobs. Here is a good example how it works from a Russian Women Abroad Discussion board: http://russianwomenabroad.com/page16.html

I married a man with two daughters and lots of debts (I found out about debts just before the wedding). It happened 3 years ago.
The hardest part was to get used to be in debt all the time and to get fluent in English. Now everything is pretty good. My husband and I are in love with each other and are able to deal with any difficulties. His patience and love helped us to become even closer to each other. He accepts my culture and traditions and we are able to find compromises. I only miss my parents and my sister, but I see my future in this country. In Russia I had to live in a dorm for 9 years. I had a good job, but it started to get worse there soon after I left. Here I had a problem with job. I had to start from the "bottom" as a nursing aid (I am an electronics engineer). But in half year I already was a clerk and in another half year I became a manager. I was able to prove that my education in Russia is not just a piece of paper. I'm happy that this country gives more opportunities and a more secure future. Now I'm staying at home with my little son Alexander. He brightens everything.
I have many Russian friends, although I don't get to see them as often as I want to. But if something bad will happen, I'm sure they'll support me.
My husband's family accepted me very well. And now even one of my brothers-in-law is thinking to find a wife abroad, because he sees our example.
I think I made the best choice. I'm happy here.»
Tatyana

[ChrisBfla]

My future wife had good English skills as a young student but that was about 15 years earlier as a girl.  She forgot a lot.  Before we met face to face and when I was planning my first visit, I studied Russian using the Transparent Language interactive program.  I think it was about $35.00 at Comp USA.  After 7 weeks, I wasn't great but I was understandable and could handle things like ordering food, asking directions, etc.  It made getting to know my future wife much easier as we did not have a third wheel in the form of a translator hanging around us.  In fact, I proposed in Russian.  It was short and to the point as I did not have a very broad vocabulary.

Chris