Are you REALLY looking for a keeper?

[AnastassiaAsh]

Faux Pas, i totally agree with you, but i have to repeat here for the third time that the debt in itself is ok to have provided that you diligently pay it off every month......but the problem with this story was that he didn't sit down with her and didn't tell her earlier about it. That's all.

Yes, we do not know how much of it he had, and it doesn't matter, big or small, he should have talked to her much earlier before the wedding. Plus several child supports....wow, not a bright situation to get into. I suppose it's very hard for me to 'bend' this rule a little since I have grown in all regards during these 9 years, and I do know what this or that number actually means. 

FirstTech, i see what you are saying too.

[Misha]

Yes, we do not know how much of it he had, and it doesn't matter, big or small, he should have talked to her much earlier before the wedding.

In an ideal world yes. In an ideal world men and women should  not rush into marriage.

Plus several child supports....wow, not a bright situation to get into.

Compared to what? This is what she says about her past (in red): I only miss my parents and my sister, but I see my future in this country. In Russia I had to live in a dorm for 9 years. I had a good job, but it started to get worse there soon after I left. 

For her, being with a man she loves in a country where she sees herself as having a future is more important than how much child support her husband has to pay 

[Simoni]

Anastassia,

I'm 100% on your side about disclosure about finances as well as honesty. However, in this case we really don't have many details other than a single sentence about how this woman learned of her husband's debt shortly before marriage.

I would normally say she has a good case but given how often I've encountered Russian people who really don't understand finance, even those living in the US for DECADES, I'd wait for more info before passing judgment.

As an example... when we bought our first home last year, we took out a big mortgage. We had enough savings to come close to buying the place w/cash, yet it would have been really stupid to do such. My wife and her family had a hard time understanding this and it took many conversations and arithmetic to prove it. And guess what? Mom STILL worries about us because we are "in debt." 

Good post, Groove.

[groovlstk]

Good post, Groove.

Maybe she's worried I'm going try to hit her up for a loan someday when my beer money runs dry 

[Simoni]

Maybe she's worried I'm going try to hit her up for a loan someday when my beer money runs dry 

Speaking of beers, I just had a Baltika at the Russian restaurant down the street.  NICE!!! 

[Vaughn]

I am enjoying the back 'n forth in this thread so much....  It occurred to me that I also witheld some
financial information, although not intentionally. Our home was already paid off ! This was a pleasant
surprise to my Elvira - but in all honesty, I didn't consider it important in the grand scheme of things.

One thing I DO admire is Anastassia's personal standard - her desire to be aware of exactly what she's
committing to is refreshing to hear. I also spent some time today wondering just what Tanya considered
a lot of debt. It could be that her husband to be owed $3000 to his MasterCard, and had a year ot two
remaining on the Accord - and like me, would consider that indebtedness insignificant. There's no telling.

He didn't inform or explain to her early enough about his debt - that's the deception.

Your point is well-taken. As is Gator's statement of his wife's unquestioning trust in him.

Plus several child supports....wow, not a bright situation to get into.

For some folks, definitely. It depends on one's personal frame of reference. We forged a family
of five - part of that equation involved child support for which I never had to apologize, nor
did it affect our happiness.

[Diplomacy]

Wow!  You are no good if you do not pay child support and now no good if you do pay child support. :noidea:

[Vaughn]

Wow!  You are no good if you do not pay child support and now no good if you do pay child support. :noidea:

It's that "frame of reference" thing all over again, huh, Diplomacy? Come to think of it, it was
easier to pay the child support years ago. Now that it has stopped, the "expenses" of raising
three unmarried daughters far outpaces any Immigration fees, LOL.

[dispozo]

Congratulations! The financial disclosure is good in general but as you point out not much time for a lady to read and sort it out. Perhaps immigration should develop a guide for the ladies in Russian explaining this and send it in advance to her with all the pther documents? Could make a difference perhaps? How long time does the visa process take? SB

K-1 takes 6 to 8 months depending on many things in and out of your control.

[Misha]

One thing I DO admire is Anastassia's personal standard - her desire to be aware of exactly what she's
committing to is refreshing to hear.

I do find that commendable. I just don't know how we got from a comment by Tatyana to how he did not disclose all his debt (which I don't believe was a huge sum if I am reading correctly between the lines) to her husband being some form of lying degenerate who should be condemned for marrying a woman because he had children from a previous marriage  My reading is that Tatyana, in spite of the debt issue was happy with her life when writing the post. Given all the train wrecks out there, shouldn't we be happy for those marriages that are working? Yes, maybe Tatyana's husband wouldn't have been the right man for Anastassia, but if Tatyana is satisfied, why should I seek to make Tatyana a martyr to be pitied because her husband does not fit another person's standards?

[ECOCKS]

A lot of the preceding posts revolve around the cultural differences/outlooks between the FSUW and AM viewpoints.  Ironically, much of that also comes back to language usage.

It is interesting that child support would be counted by some as debt, others as obligatory expenses.  The legends of FSUM abandoning their families and failing to support their children are abundantly told, at least here in Kyiv, and seemed to not be often thought of by FSUW even if they have children from a previous marriage themselves. Likewise, for many Americans, credit cards and mortgage are often programmed as expenses rather than thought of as debt per se.  Business loans, summary judgments, partnership commitments and the like are usually considered "DEBT" in terms of balance sheets.

With regard to legal and tax system differences, I'll share that my stepson went to the US on the Work and Travel program three years ago and ended up working 3 jobs while there.  He's a pretty steady kid and didn't seem to be partying that much,  He came home with a couple of thousand dollars in savings, paid his mother for the initial outlay (fee and air ticket) and then gave her a new Dell laptop.  Along comes April of the next year and she asked me to talk with him "about some papers" he was being asked for by the US government.  Of course this is not the govt. but some commercial agency that approaches the students to help them file their tax returns and get back their withholdings.  All well and good except that it never occurred to many of the kids to try to understand the meaning of the check stubs or final paperwork accompanying their paychecks/envelopes.  he tossed them and ended up losing roughly $550.

Our mortgage deductions, tax credits, alternative minimum tax, medical deductions, business expenses and such are bewildering to a culture still transitioning to private ownership and small business entrepreneurism.  While some of the women here may very well present exceptions, I work with very bright, English fluent University students everyday plus have commercial contacts where lunch is lunch and if you buy a textbook for cash, that is your problem since you should have ordered it and let the company wire transfer the payment for documentation.  One accountant went crazy when I showed up with a brown paper bag of cash that a client handed me containing almost $2,000.  Basically I was stupid for accepting cash instead of making the client pay via transfer - baffling to an American businessman.

So, I continue to strongly favor the explain realistic factors such as lifestyle, living conditions and ease them into our financial machinations. My wife has finally accepted that I expect to pay legitimate taxes, tip 10% for good service and have different definitions of optional, normal, luxury and extras when spending money.  As long as I clearly explain what we can and cannot do or expect she seems content.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Of course my standards are much higher than Tatiana's, but it doesn't mean it is bad for her, it worked for her, yes, she risked, but i suppose that risk was worth taking for Her! If a man has children from previous marriage, of course it's honorable that he pays childsupport. This situation is just not for me and frankly very scary, with his ex, kids and financial responsibilities being a huge dragging tail. It doesn't mean he is bad or anything. It's just divorced men are not for me personally. I am also at that age I suppose when I still could find a man who was never married....

Yes, I absolutely need to know what i am getting into with a man, in all topics, finances especially. First time around for me - i wasn't that strict although still had my standards. Second time around, i myself was already of a different status and knew what would be great and at the same time realistic to expect my man to make.

[Misha]

If a man has children from previous marriage, of course it's honorable that he pays child support. This situation is just not for me and frankly very scary, with his ex, kids and financial responsibilities being a huge dragging tail. It doesn't mean he is bad or anything. It's just divorced men are not for me personally. I am also at that age I suppose when I still could find a man who was never married....

We all have certain standards and are willing to compromise on certain things if we are in love. If a woman does not want a man who is divorced, that is fair. Likewise, it is also fair that a man would not want to marry a woman who is divorced with children as well. Fortunately, some women are willing to marry divorced men with children and some men are willing to marry divorced women with children as the dating pool would be otherwise quite small

[AnastassiaAsh]

Misha, agreed! 

[Faux Pas]

My wife has finally accepted that I expect to pay legitimate taxes, tip 10% for good service and have different definitions of optional, normal, luxury and extras when spending money.  As long as I clearly explain what we can and cannot do or expect she seems content.

Ah you cheap bastid  You've been in Ukraine too long. It's 15% for minimal acceptable service and anything over that is praise of service

[groovlstk]

Ah you cheap bastid  You've been in Ukraine too long. It's 15% for minimal acceptable service and anything over that is praise of service

I'm guessing that 10% tip figure ecocks mentioned is when he's in Ukraine, which is above and beyond what is expected. Guys who tip 15% or more may think of themselves as generous, but they're also building unrealistic expectations that all who follow will have to deal with, in essence creating a class of pro-dater like service people who expect top dollar for doing nothing. At least one interpreter who posts here was spoiled by jackass Westerners and now consider guys cheap for expecting competitive rates.

[ECOCKS]

Ah you cheap bastid  You've been in Ukraine too long. It's 15% for minimal acceptable service and anything over that is praise of service

Of course in Ukraine 10% is when I have what would be considered "minimal" service in the states here that equates to 4 star hotel/restaurant service.   Like when the server comes back a couple of times and asks if we wish anything else.  I am saving that 15% level for any that EVER come back and ask if I would like dessert or another cup of coffee.  So far, I haven't had to do that ANYWHERE in Ukraine.

The nice thing about Puzata Hata and a few of their other cafeterias is you are responsible for your own service and, hey, no tip needed.  I fight the system in my own way though. I pay with a 100 or 200 UAH note and just say "NYET" when they pout over not giving them any metal money or small change.

[Faux Pas]

I'm guessing that 10% tip figure ecocks mentioned is when he's in Ukraine, which is above and beyond what is expected. Guys who tip 15% or more may think of themselves as generous, but they're also building unrealistic expectations that all who follow will have to deal with, in essence creating a class of pro-dater like service people who expect top dollar for doing nothing. At least one interpreter who posts here was spoiled by jackass Westerners and now consider guys cheap for expecting competitive rates.

groov

My comment to ECOCKS was tongue-in-cheek. I have never used or employed an interpreter in my life but as far as tipping for service received, I don't consider what country I happen to be in, my tipping standards remain the same. For bad service I am inclined not to tip anything. You are beginning to sound like a stingy tipper with a guilt complex  

I don't consider tipping generous but just payment for services rendered. It is the honorable thing to do. I tip the same in Russia as I do in the US. I don't consider it as building unrealistic expectations for those that follow. Those that follow can be guided by their own conscience. At one point in my life, I made my living on tips and I can admire those that continue to do so. I tip accordingly.

[groovlstk]

For bad service I am inclined not to tip anything. You are beginning to sound like a stingy tipper with a guilt complex  

FP, next time you're with your GF in the FSU, try tipping 15% in front of her and see what she says  I used to tip 20%+ (like I do here in the US) and was repeatedly scolded by the local people I was with. I'd argue with them, but over time I came to realize that they were correct: the service workers still got by doing the bare minimum regardless of how well I tipped, and I was adding weight to the widely accepted belief that Americans throw money around like fools.

One thing that took me awhile to understand is that the local service people do not think of you as "nice" or "generous" if you tip well or otherwise throw around your money - you're simply considered foolish.

[Faux Pas]

FP, next time you're with your GF in the FSU, try tipping 15% in front of her and see what she says  I used to tip 20%+ (like I do here in the US) and was repeatedly scolded by the local people I was with. I'd argue with them, but over time I came to realize that they were correct: the service workers still got by doing the bare minimum regardless of how well I tipped, and I was adding weight to the widely accepted belief that Americans throw money around like fools.

One thing that took me awhile to understand is that the local service people do not think of you as "nice" or "generous" if you tip well or otherwise throw around your money - you're simply considered foolish.

groov,

The first time I did, it was an expensive restaurant and she asked why, and then why so much? She near started an argument over it. I explained because the service was acceptable. The next time she asked if I was leaving a tip and I said no, and I didn't (the service was atrocious). Again, had to explain the level of service idea to her. She still didn't understand and I don't think she does to this day. She expects every time I will leave a tip and only questions me when I don't. She, like most of Russian eateries I've visited, haven't caught on the concept of tips equate to service.

I'm a bit old fashioned and hard headed to the point that I just don't explain why or what I do or don't do with my money. I understand the concept of tipping hasn't caught on in the FSU and I am okay with that. But I won't change my standard on the account of it.

I have found that tipping in most instances in the FSU doesn't improve service upon the next visit. The level of service remains the same and as you say, they probably think foolish American with his money. However there was one exception at a very nice higher-end restaurant in Petersburg. That waitress would break her neck to get to me when she saw us enter and her service was impeccable. It gives me hope that the concept will catch on. 

[Faux Pas]

Of course in Ukraine 10% is when I have what would be considered "minimal" service in the states here that equates to 4 star hotel/restaurant service.   Like when the server comes back a couple of times and asks if we wish anything else.  I am saving that 15% level for any that EVER come back and ask if I would like dessert or another cup of coffee.  So far, I haven't had to do that ANYWHERE in Ukraine.

The nice thing about Puzata Hata and a few of their other cafeterias is you are responsible for your own service and, hey, no tip needed.  I fight the system in my own way though. I pay with a 100 or 200 UAH note and just say "NYET" when they pout over not giving them any metal money or small change.

It's hard to leave 15% when service was slightly above bad but far below minimal which I have found seems to be the norm in Russia. I can be a very gracious tipper but I can honestly say I haven't graciously tipped in Russia with a couple of exceptions. Once was a good waitress and the other was a transfer driver with currency issues. 

[SilverBUllet]

K-1 takes 6 to 8 months depending on many things in and out of your control.

Thanks for the info. I understand you now can track the progress of the application on-line to see where it stops up or takes too long time. Perhaps the time also varies based on country of the lady and what state you reside in. Anyhow thanks and good luck. SB

[SilverBUllet]

Ah you cheap bastid  You've been in Ukraine too long. It's 15% for minimal acceptable service and anything over that is praise of service

For those with a decent income in USD or Euro living / visiting Ukraine or Russia, I personally don't hesitate to tip 15%. After all based on the recent strength in those currencies against the Rubel and the Hryvnia, that type of tip is small money for me but make a big difference for the recipient. Put a smile on people, tip while in Ukraine and Russia. It is more fun too. I remember once in Odessa I had to use a male interpreter, and I gave him a decent tip. He told my Russian speaking lady later on that I was the only American who had ever given him a tip. That lady was actually impressed by that statement about me, and the interpreter didn't tell me about it. He just told the lady in Russian that I was a good guy because of it. So come on guys, help out if you can a little bit. I don't care too much about how the service was or not, more fun to put a smile on people's faces. Remember that service is not the strong point in these countries, so don't expect VIP Ritz Carlton service here  . On a happy note, thinking of my favorite cafeteria style restaurant in Kyiv, Puzata Hata, where no tipping is needed. I sometimes just pick up the tab for the person in front of me at the kacca, and the reaction is often unbelievable for what for me turn out to be a modest amount. Suddently there are hand shakes, laughter and you have made a new friend.  Then bring in a few Obolon Premium from the bar and you get all the insider tips for Kyiv.

[SilverBUllet]

I have posted this before (see attachment) - and the numbers are certainly dated - but the concepts are still valid, I think.

If anyone would care to help with updating these numbers for 2009 (as opposed to the circa 2000 numbers), and maybe adjust for the fact these were prepared for Canada and not the US - perhaps this is something we should finalize as a guide to be used to help men and women understand the differences in financial concepts between North America and the FSU.

- Dan

Dan, Thanks for the information. This was useful! Will come handy one day so I made a copy! Do you also have a pre-nup in Russian? SB

[SilverBUllet]

I have many Russian friends, although I don't get to see them as often as I want to. But if something bad will happen, I'm sure they'll support me.

I will teach you a golden rule.  Make sure you understand what is meant by any RW, do not even think about thinking about what is meant.

If I was to guess she is talking about the level of friendship.  Not being as deep in America as they have in Russia.  It is often a situation of less friends that are much closer.  You could only rely on your friends and family quite often in Russia.  Even to the level of having the wrong friend could get you Enemy of the State billboard material.  The right friend could open up areas of red tape and influence something that you may need.

Now, I am not discussing this with her, and therefore not following the golden rule myself. 

Areas concerning no money or debt.  You are talking about a culture that could run circles around us in true hardship.  Let me see 20 million casualties in Great Patriotic War, Stalin and starvation, scorched earth twice, Ques, Orthodox Church members killed by the thousands, 2 revolutions, KGB/NKVD/FSB killing in the 10 million plus range, Mafia murders, and who knows what else I am leaving off the list.

One of the strongest attributes I believe a FSUW has, is if it gets real bad she can handle it.  Just same story different regime.  All IMO of course

Oh, and as for the RM.  Say what you want but if they had not held the Eastern Front by themselves for the most part against the Germans.  We would have a better than 0 chance of all be writing in German ATM.

I think we as Americans tend to forget that detail after the Cold War.  They did a heck of a job too.

Sorry to say this, but you sound like living too much in the past. Are you saying hardship in the past, decades ago makes it ok for hardship to still exisit or that today's ladies should be fine with it because they are Russian / Ukrainian? If I understood this correctly, I would say NO WAY. Those days are long gone. Women of today expect much more. They have sattelite TV and have seen all the soap operas about the rich an famous. We are back to the topic for this tread, are you looking for a keeper? Are you willing to do what it takes to keep holding on to the lady? It takes money to keep them happy, just deal with it!