TR: Barnaul/Tver, Russia

[Simoni]

To come full circle, luck is a big factor in ones search.   

Even when you have done your homework, even when you are experienced in this arena, you can are subject to luck. 

Some men have good luck and meet the right woman on the first trip.  Or even meet her before going through letters, texts and phone calls.  But the more likely scenario is that you won't meet the girl you want to spend the rest of your life with on the first trip.

Luck may be getting on the right bus at the right moment, as was RWDer did in Kharkov.  Luck may be that you find a great girl at an agency because her best friend married an American and she is happy, and your future wife signed up and you were the first foreign man she met.

Sure, some times you make your luck.  For instance, my future wife put in her profile how much she loved to read.  That attracted me to her.  But perhaps it was luck that out of the thousands of profiles I happened to read hers?

I had good luck in that the first FSU girl I met was good.  But it did not work out.  Then I had multiple more trips and passed many ships in the night before I got lucky and found my wife to be.

Look, it may all be semantics.  However, I do believe that in Jerry's case he was not lucky enough to meet the girl that will be his mate as easily as some here have.  That is why I said "wait a minute" when he started to get flack early in this trip report. He was just not as lucky as some have been.

Jerry-- hang in there. Your luck is about to change!   

[TwoBitBandit]

I assert it was not luck.  I simply had gone through the process of building a relationship with a very appealing woman, yet it failed largely because of my shortcomings.  I did not do enough (or have enough) to win her heart.  I also made the decision to date her even though her English was weak.  So I accept full responsibility for having to start over.

Don't quite understand that Gator.  Are you actually saying that this relationship failed because you weren't "man enough" to win her?  Sheesh but that's screwed up.  No Gator, the relationship failed because she had poor character.  Granted I wasn't there and don't know what you know about it, but that's my take on it at this point anyway...

Gator, forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth.

I believe that being successful at anything requires an honest self-inventory.  It's not a one-time thing: what's required is more of an ongoing project.  When something in your life doesn't go as you expect, it's important to take a good honest look at what you personally did to contribute to the situation.  Not in a "pathetic me, I can never do anything right" sort of way, but rather in a "what lesson can I learn here so that I don't repeat this failure?"

It sounds to me like Gator did this: he did an honest self-evaluation of what went wrong.  And there's always something you yourself did wrong.  Even if you can honestly say to yourself that the other person was "at fault" and did something evil or deceptive, you can always ask yourself how you misjudged the situation or the person.  There's a lesson in every failure.  When you miss the result you desired, don't make it worse by missing the lesson.

It reminds me of a short story I once read.  It goes like this.

Day 1: I walk down a street. I fall into a deep hole. It takes me a long time to climb out.
Day 2: I walk down the street. I fall into the hole. I climb out.
Day 3: I walk down the street. I see the hole but I fall in anyway. I climb out.
Day 4: I walk down the street. I walk around the hole.
Day 5: I walk down another street.

[Misha]

There's a lesson in every failure.  When you miss the result you desired, don't make it worse by missing the lesson.

Very well said!

[SANDRO43]

Even if you can honestly say to yourself that the other person was "at fault" and did something evil or deceptive, you can always ask yourself how you misjudged the situation or the person.

Or more concisely, to quote the immortal words of Anon., deeply respected Chinese philosopher of the Han dynasty:

It takes two to tango

[Brianinaz]

I need to learn how to do the person's quote in the blue gray box thing so please excuse.

Gator
A few pages back you wrote "I agree with everything except the luck part.  I am not sure what you mean by luck.  For sure, you do not mean “blind luck.” "

Yes, blind stupid luck. Random chance, two independent things/actions/people that happen to occur in the same place at the same time. It's common in relationships. Skip the FSU part. An acquittance invites you to a New Year's Party. Your friend's wife invites a coworker. You both are invited to several other parties. You both hem and haw and at the last moment decide to go to the same party. You meet, strike up a relationship, fall in love, and live happily everafter. That my friend happens, and is common. It is blind stupid luck. No amount of planning could have told you which party to go to. The decision to go to this or that city, and meet this or that girl; when you are successful it is largely a matter of luck (for the mathematicians in the crowd random chance)

[SANDRO43]

I need to learn how to do the person's quote in the blue gray box thing so please excuse.

While writing your post, place the cursor where you'd like the quote to appear, then scroll down to the other post you wish to quote, press Insert Quote at top right there, and voilà .

[SMS60]

An acquittance invites you to a New Year's Party. Your friend's wife invites a coworker. You both are invited to several other parties. You both hem and haw and at the last moment decide to go to the same party. You meet, strike up a relationship, fall in love, and live happily everafter. That my friend happens, and is common. It is blind stupid luck. No amount of planning could have told you which party to go to. The decision to go to this or that city, and meet this or that girl; when you are successful it is largely a matter of luck (for the mathematicians in the crowd random chance)

I have an opinion but it would be based on the acquittance you are talking about. If he is a person who in the back of his mind wants to find someone and is always putting himself in envoriments to meet someone. I would say he "created" his luck.

If he had no desire to meet someone and ventured out of the house for one night I would call it the " blind luck"

Successful people create their so called luck.

[av8or1]

I decided to edit this post after a bit of thought. The fact of the matter is that I don't see myself as oversimplifying the world. From my perspective, most RW are pretty decent. If you talk to them (really talk to them) you can figure out what makes them tick. The one's that had ulterior motives, I found them pretty easy to identify.

Well ok I'll take your word for your belief in the oversimplification thing, but I still think you're breaking things down into cubbyholes and everyone has to go into one or the other.  This is oversimplification.  While I agree that most RW are pretty decent as you have called it, I also believe that even these "pretty decent" RW can and will do things that are not-so-decent.  It's the nature of the human condition: we are all flawed and therefore "human."  To say that most are "pretty decent" while the remainder have alterior motives IS an oversimplification in my mind.  Both of my former fiancees would have fallen into your "pretty decent" category I think; they both had jobs, neither ever asked for money, neither really liked agencies, both said they wanted marriage and children and both said that they were ok with living in a foreign country and that they were committed to me fully.

However in the final analysis they chose an "equivalent RM" over me, a WM, despite love, despite our history together, despite everything.  And this Misha is why I say it isn't so easy to determine if a RW will actually follow through with the process, no matter what she tells you.  The lines are blurred my friend, there's so much grey area, unfortunately, and that is why I believe that "luck" plays the biggest factor.  In my mind you got lucky.  I'm happy for you too, especially knowing now that you had a prior failed marriage with a RW.  Make no doubt about that.  I also hope to entertain such lucky-ness in the future.  Fingers crossed.

Some women decide to marry the man they love in spite of having to go live in a foreign country, some decide they prefer to stay in their country. The women that I dated tended to make that decision quite quickly.

Hmmmmm...ok, help me out here: what's your point exactly?  Both of my women made that decision rather early on too, both said that they were just fine ("no worry Jeddy") with living abroad in the USA and neither gave any indication of a preference to remain in the FSU.  And yet when push came to shove, that's exactly what they chose: to stay in the FSU.  In my opinion they lack the character required to keep a commitment once they make it, and this is why I believe that character is the most important quality of the RW with whom you intend to pursue relations.

To be honest, the women you are describing and the types of scenarios that you describe are pretty different from my experience. It helped speaking Russian and it certainly did not hurt that I was dating Russian women who were not specifically looking for a foreigner, just a decent guy and future husband.

Well this is probably the best thing you've said thus far, that our experiences were different.  I don't know exactly what you mean by that, but I'll take you at your word.  However, don't go so far as to say that the women I dated were looking for a foreigner and not just "a decent guy and future husband" because you're going WAY out on a limb by making assumptions/drawing conclusions about things you know nothing of.  The reality is that both of my former fiancees weren't looking for a foreign man either.  They just wanted "a decent guy and future husband" too.  And when they felt as though they could have that and remain local, they chose that option.  So clearly then, they were NOT looking for a foreigner.  I mean it's basic math Misha, had they indeed been looking for a foreigner they would have chosen me, right?  Hello, McFly?!

I dunno, perhaps you made this last sentence as general commentary and not directed at my situation.  If so, then ok, no heat on that.

TwoBit and Misha in subsequent posts made some good comments about learning lessons, TwoBit's was in response to a post I made as a follow up to Gator's post.  When reading that I couldn't help but think that somehow there was an underlying feeling that I hadn't learned some lesson or that I had/have the wrong attitude towards my situation because I believe that I did nothing wrong and thus I am feeling like "pathetic me, I can never do anything right", this kind of thing...well I can understand what you are saying, but would have to disagree with any notion that such a phenomenon applies to me or my situation.  It is my opinion that there were things that I could have done better in both of those relationships but that those things were not ultimately the reason that my engagements failed.  And I've never been one to sit around crying over spilled milk, claiming that I can't do anything right.  No, for me the "lesson" if there is one is larger-world-picture than that.  And the lesson - in my opinion anyway - is that life is rough; most of the time you're gonna get the short end of the stick.  Most of the time the ball doesn't bounce your way, despite your best efforts to the contrary and despite your mistakes.  And when that happens all you can do it suck it up, try not to repeat the mistakes you may have made (even if they weren't the ultimate deciding factor) and try, try, try again.  I think if you take a large step back and look at your life overall as one big picture rather than shorter little episodes, you could say the same thing.  That's the way it is, it's just life.

And that's what I have taken away from my situation.

In short, I don't believe that there's any lesson to be had that could be attributed to general behavioral patterns of RW, any lesson to be had regarding my approach or technique in relationships (I say that because by all exterior appearances everything was good in our relations, the women certainly seemed happy and expressed that happiness while almost never expressing any discontent) nor did I allow myself to be deceived.  Not that I haven't done that before, sure enough, but in these two cases that doesn't apply.  Simply put, I wish it was that easy Misha, I wish I could look back and say that I overlooked something and that I shouldn't do that again next time (which is in essence, in microchasm "the lesson" that you are pushing) because then I would have another guide in my arsenal for the next attempt.  Unfortunately that isn't the case, ergo, life isn't that simple.  Sometimes sheeet happens and there's nothing you could have done nor can do about it now.  Other than to be grateful for what you do have left in this world and to move on.  And that's what I'm doing.

Hope this makes sense.

I will agree that being able to speak Russian helps tremendously.  It certainly has helped me.  What's helped even further however is simply the experience of having been in-country so many times.  I've grown accustomed to what I have seen over the years, I know what to expect from people and I feel in-tune (at least respectfully so) with the Russian way of life.  I remain in the camp where the belief is that you need a RW of exceptional character, with whom you have great compatibility and strong love and finally with whom you have common goals.  Without all three of these things working in concert together for the mutual benefit of both people involved, ultimately the excitement and/or exotic-ness of your new foreign wife will yield to real-world concerns and problems that gradually erode your relations, usually resulting in a failed marriage.  IOW, the tradeoffs that both of you must make WRT differing languages, culture and backgrounds just won't be worth it; you'd both be better off by marrying locally.  However, if you can be so "lucky" as to have those three things working together for you and your RW, this RW will usually make a much better wife than a roughly-equivalent AW.  And it is this scenario that I hope for.

Finally, Brianinaz's and Simoni's comments regarding this notion of "luck" are right on the money.  Read those posts again.  In my view "luck" is what happens to you AFTER you've done everything under your control that you can do to affect a particular desired outcome.  IOW, it's what's out-of-your-control.  And "life" is what happens while you are busy making other plans.

Best,

Jerry

[Misha]

To say that most are "pretty decent" while the remainder have alterior motives IS an oversimplification in my mind.  Both of my former fiancees would have fallen into your "pretty decent" category I think; they both had jobs, neither ever asked for money, neither really liked agencies, both said they wanted marriage and children and both said that they were ok with living in a foreign country and that they were committed to me fully.

Sadly, you were burnt twice in the process. This is certainly coloring your point of view IMHO.

However in the final analysis they chose an "equivalent RM" over me, a WM, despite love, despite our history together, despite everything.  

That is your experience. A sad experience, but not my experience. Again, my comments were trying to counter what I see as an overgeneralization on your part. It seemed to me that you were implying that all RW were like your two former fiancees. I am just saying that it is not my experience with all the RW that I have met over 14 years.

[av8or1]

Sadly, you were burnt twice in the process. This is certainly coloring your point of view IMHO.

That is your experience. A sad experience, but not my experience. Again, my comments were trying to counter what I see as an overgeneralization on your part. It seemed to me that you were implying that all RW were like your two former fiancees. I am just saying that it is not my experience with all the RW that I have met over 14 years.

Well ok then.  I wasn't implying that all RW are like more former fiancees, no.  I don't intend to give that impression to anyone.  Again, I never said "all", I said that based on my experience and the experience of other men I know who have attempted this endeavor that a RW will generally prefer (meaning "the majority") to remain in the FSU over moving to a foreign country to live with what is an all-things-else-being-equal WM.  And in a way if you step back, that isn't an unreasonable preference/decision.

I advocated both then and now that it is the exceptional RW of sound character alone who will remain with her WM, despite the enevitable advances she will receive from RM after you have begun relations with her. (don't think that your RW didn't have that happen to her Misha)  And my position is that if you find such a RW, you should consider yourself "lucky" because she is in the minority.  Get it?

As a counterpoint, I would say that your not-sad experience is clouding your judgement in the other direction.  I think that it is this not-sad experience that is causing an overgeneralization on your part, though I have been using the term oversimplification instead.  Really it's roughly the same idea.  It seemed to me that you were/are saying that it's easy to spot the women who will give you trouble or who could give you trouble in the future (ergo those with alterior motives).  All I am saying is that the real world is not that simple Misha, I wish it was.  The fact of the matter is that those who can seem to be "good" can also come back to bite you in the a$$.  Thus my rationale for it all being a crapshoot.  And for luck being the biggest factor.

It seems that perhaps our experiences have made us the yin and the yang of the FSU pursuit.  You zig, I zang.  Who knows?!   However I think that the folk newer to this endeavor should be aware that the lines are indeed blurred (just as they are here) and that things really are not so simple.  I hope you understand my point, as well as others.

Best,

Jerry

[SMS60]

However in the final analysis they chose an "equivalent RM" over me, a WM, despite love, despite our history together, despite everything.  

Jerry you mystify me also. I dont know if your real or not. I scratch my head constantly. Maybe you were planted here to create traffic.

I stop reading when I reached the point above. It is either a false statement or a image in your imagination.

[Daveman]

I think we also view our experiences through glasses tinted with a tad of hubris.  

Think about the reverse situation...

All things being equal.. how many guys in this pursuit would remain steadfast if during the process of waiting and waiting they encountered a local possibility who completely fit their criteria in every way?  If the kind of babe he chases in FSU would suddenly appear? She's gorgeous, sweet, tender, not a gold digger, learned how to speak with a sexy Russian accent... etc etc... exactly the woman of his dreams... without the hassles involved.

Would you break the engagement? Would you develop relations with the local lady and keep the FSU lady as a back up? Really what would *you* do?  You can bet your counterparts, those with exact behavior as yourself, reside in the FSU as well.

Some would remain true.. others would find an excuse to break the engagement... I've often asked myself this very question

We like to think we would all have the utmost in character, ethics, whatever the correct term is to remain true to our promises, but really, not everyone will have the same behavior under the same circumstance.

Dave

[Misha]

All things being equal.. how many guys in this pursuit would remain steadfast if during the process of waiting and waiting they encountered a local possibility who completely fit their criteria in every way?

I believe that every woman is unique, and that you fall in love with a woman that cannot be replaced by any other woman. If a man thinks that there is a possibility that he could find another woman who could fit his criteria in every way, then he should not be getting engaged IMHO. A wife should be more than a cute face and a cute accent.

[Daveman]

I believe that every woman is unique, and that you fall in love with a woman that cannot be replaced by any other woman. If a man thinks that there is a possibility that he could find another woman who could fit his criteria in every way, then he should not be getting engaged IMHO. A wife should be more than a cute face and a cute accent.

Of course there are thousands of other women who would fit his criteria, and any man could find them if he chose to do so - before, during, or after marriage.  Whether he should or shouldn't is irrelevant (though of course most of us would agree with your assessment in the previous post).

What I am getting at is simply this -- humans are like cups; you just don't know what's inside until the cup is jostled, and during that time whatever is *really* inside will spill out.  You can fully believe you know someone, whether a good friend, or fiancee, or even spouse, but until you witness that person's behavior in a given set of circumstances all you have is speculation based on your perceptions. 

Hopefully that speculation and perception is correct. Often it isn't.  Often we superimpose our own value system upon the character of others - especially when emotions are involved.  Other times we superimpose value systems on entire groups of people according to our experience with a very small sample of that group.

I surmise that for every married, engaged, or dating man here, there are absolutely things about your 'other' that you don't know and if you did, would surely surprise you.  I'm not insinuating that everyone has a nefarious side, but rather a nebulous inner world. We only truly know what they reveal -- intentionally or not.

Okay, my brain is overheating.. I'll leave the deep thinking to those more capable..

Dave

[Gator]

Gator:  I assert it was not luck.  I simply had gone through the process of building a relationship with a very appealing woman, yet it failed largely because of my shortcomings.  I did not do enough (or have enough) to win her heart.

Don't quite understand that Gator.  Are you actually saying that this relationship failed because you weren't "man enough" to win her?  Sheesh but that's screwed up.  No Gator, the relationship failed because she had poor character. 

That is exactly what I am saying.  If I had been her dream man or just a better man, perhaps she would not have given any attention to another man.

[Gator]

The Issue of Luck

So some of you believe the outcome of this endeavor is controlled mainly by random luck!   

I guess you will next tell me that the outcome of poker is mostly about random luck.

Yes, there is always a conjuncture of some antecedent circumstances beyond one's control that influence whether a man and woman will have the opportunity to meet.  Over my life I have encountered by chance an infinite number of women.  Once I  encountered a woman, everything after that was based on judgment, hers and mine, starting with whether to be responsive.  Although no decision in romance is ever done with absolute certainty, and for sure one has no control over the other person, the outcome is not based on theory of chance.

Luck is when you wear a blindfold and throw darts at a wall of photos of women and pursue the one where the dart landed regardless of what transpires.

[Simoni]

Luck is when you wear a blindfold and throw darts at a wall of photos of women and pursue the one where the dart landed regardless of what transpires.

For me, when I say luck, it is definitely NOT this definition provided above by Gator:

People are defining luck in different ways here.  If you go by their personal definitions, they are all correct about the meaning of luck.  Thus, one must read what each man says to understand what they mean by luck.

 

Yes, there is always a conjuncture of some antecedent circumstances beyond one's control that influence whether a man and woman will have the opportunity to meet. 

When I speak of luck, it is more in the definition above.

[Misha]

Hopefully that speculation and perception is correct. Often it isn't. 

Depends what it is based on. A week or a few, then yes the odds are good that the speculation is incorrect. If neither truly share a common language, then yes odds are pretty good that it will be incorrect. If either is deluding themselves into seeing what they want to see, then I can guarantee you that the perception is nothing more than a fantasy.

[Brianinaz]

I guess you will next tell me that the outcome of poker is mostly about random luck

Cards and women are a bit different. If you're really skilled you can win with just about any hand. You can't build a happy relationship with just about any woman. First you have to find the right person. There are skills and tools that help you in finding her but IMHO "luck" plays a significant role in finding her.

Maybe we're talking apples and oranges here. Luck is the cards you are dealt. Skill and knowledge is what you do with them after you have them in your hand.

Luck is when you wear a blindfold and throw darts at a wall of photos of women and pursue the one where the dart landed regardless of what transpires.
 
Posted on: Today at 03:36:46 PMPosted by: Gator 

 

Luck is having the dart hit the woman who is right for you. Stupidity is pursuing a person/relationship regardless of what transpires.

Luck largely ends after you meet. I don't believe there is only one person out there for each of us but in my experience the number of women who are "right for me" is limited. In my experience even after I've done everything I can do, being as persistant in the process as I can, doing all the preparatory work, introspection, all of that, a large part of finding/meeting one of those few women on this rather large planet who is right for me takes a good amount of "luck". Picking out that one profile out of 10,000 based on a few lines and a picture and having that woman be right for you, having the right woman decide to open the newspaper on the day your ad is in the paper, making a new friend on the otherside of the planet or the otherside of town who introduces you to that right person, and the list of chance events goes on is a matter of luck.

After you meet one of those "right women for you" the role of luck (as in a  random event) diminishes dramatically. Then it is a relationship; some work some don't. To the degree that luck is involved IMHO it is having met the "right person" to begin with. Sometimes we are well into a relationship before we realise that person isn't the "right person". We sometimes use the word bad luck in these circumstances where maybe misfortune would be more appropriate.

Luck is random chance. To me it is the meeting/finding the "right person" aspect of this that carries with it a good amount of luck   

[UTRO]

I need to learn how to do the person's quote in the blue gray box thing so please excuse.

Gator
A few pages back you wrote "I agree with everything except the luck part.  I am not sure what you mean by luck.  For sure, you do not mean “blind luck.” "

Yes, blind stupid luck. Random chance, two independent things/actions/people that happen to occur in the same place at the same time. It's common in relationships. Skip the FSU part. An acquittance invites you to a New Year's Party. Your friend's wife invites a coworker. You both are invited to several other parties. You both hem and haw and at the last moment decide to go to the same party. You meet, strike up a relationship, fall in love, and live happily everafter. That my friend happens, and is common. It is blind stupid luck. No amount of planning could have told you which party to go to. The decision to go to this or that city, and meet this or that girl; when you are successful it is largely a matter of luck (for the mathematicians in the crowd random chance)

Brianinaz, I agree 100% with your statement.

After this Luck is no longer an issue..... 'What will be, will be' comes into play. When the initial euphoria, blindness, passion, horniness, etc, of any new relationship wears off there has to be something true remaining to make that relationship grow and survive. True Love, Feelings, Trust, Ideals, Values etc. What was invisible before becomes visible. What didn't matter before now matters. The real You and the real Her come out into the open. If you detect things that could lead to problems and you choose to bury them, you are only fooling yourself. Eventually one day these things will come to the surface in a bad way.
Jerry, your Woman broke off your engagement and married a Russian Man after 2 1/2 months probably due to something either in her personality or yours. I'm not saying you're a freak or need counseling Jerry. Perhaps there was either something that she wasn't comfortable with in you, or there was something in her that made her uncomfortable with the decision(s) she made. Maybe she just wasn't being sincere with herself, or her reason(s) for wanting to marry a Western Man. Perhaps there was something you once said that bothered her or gave her doubt, something that stuck in her head and she never got over? Maybe it was something she misunderstood? Something you were never able to properly communicate and explain to her because of the language difference? Who the hell knows?!? Gator, no Woman leaves a man she loves for the promise of a car from a RM. Unless she was a Scammer, there had to be other things leading up to this that swayed her decision. In your case I'm sure it wasn't a Scam.
Guys, this is why I could never get my mind around meeting a RW who couldn't communicate well in my Language. There is just too much lost in Translation for me. Like any RW - WM couple, Sveta and I have communication problems at times and she went to University for 5 years Mastering in English, was a Red Student and has taught English at a University....! I couldn't imagine us not being able to express our true feelings, frustrations, misunderstandings, etc... You guys who have a successful relationship with a RW who knew little or no English when you first met, I don't know how you coped. You are all by far a better men than me!

[ScottinCrimea]

I have known my wife for nearly six years now, have lived with her for five and been married for nearly three and we are still finding issues that come up where we have different views.  I read posts of those who say they have spent much time discussing what is important to them to be sure they are compatible with a woman, but from my experience there is no way you can know all the issues that will surface over time. With the WWW's, I can only imagine the surprises that are in store for them as they bring her to the US and finally deal with the issues involved in everyday life.  Add to that those who marry someone whose English is lacking, and the number of beliefs and issues that aren't adequately addressed in the courting phase can be overwhelming.  All they can hope for is that there is a compatibility (or a flexibility) there that will lead to agreement and a positive outcome.  I'm sure they address the big issues such as children, religion, future goals, etc., but it is the "little" often overlooked, unanticipated things that can ultimately lead to the demise of the relationship.

Nothing can replace time together and a common language, not e-mails, letters, phone calls, video chats, etc., in ultimately addressing all of the issues.  The less time you spend with a woman who you hope to make your companion for life, the more of a crap shoot it is and the more likely it is that you will discover an incompatibility that you hadn't even conceived of.

[Diplomacy]

Scott:

I agree with the premise that being in the trenches is better than over distance, in many aspects.  I have yet to have any relationship, that issues arise that you would never think of.  Of course, time is the only answer in my case as to whether anything deal breaking occurs.

I do believe though that as each obstacle is overcome, and issues resolved in a manner that you both are happy with.  Even over distance you can form and create a healthy and strong relationship.  Maybe it is a generational issue also.  I know a lot of people that lived very far away in the USA, Columbia, and Asia that were together a very short amount of time. 

Today, they have marriages that most people would be proud of.  As True, chemistry, and E Harmony are now preferred over bars within many in my peer group.  The dating, courting, and selection process is very different, then say my parents or their parents.

I believe that in this environment many people are much more forward as to what they want.  I also believe that there are many conversations that would not happen in a day to day early in the relationship, due to the rigors and reality of life.

It is a different way of doing things, but that does not mean it is not effective. 

[av8or1]

Jerry you mystify me also. I dont know if your real or not. I scratch my head constantly. Maybe you were planted here to create traffic.

I stop reading when I reached the point above. It is either a false statement or a image in your imagination.

Nope SMS60, it's neither a false statement nor a figment in my imagination.  It's fact.  It's real world stuff.  Sometimes people do things for strange reasons, it just happens.  And no I was not planted to create traffic, whatever that means.

Try to keep your comments more respectful in the future.

Best,

Jerry

[Gator]

We seem to be getting close to consensus about the role of LUCK.

Luck is the cards you are dealt. Skill and knowledge is what you do with them after you have them in your hand.

If you played only one hand of poker, the luck of the deal would be the primary determinant.  Play poker for hours and days, the best player usually wins. 

Luck is random chance. To me it is the meeting/finding the "right person" aspect of this that carries with it a good amount of luck   

Yes and no.  In this venture one can encounter a large number of RW.   Choosing one or more to pursue ... well, it is all about reasoning and feelings.  She also has choices, and if she happens to choose you, it is because of you, not luck, even if it makes you feel very lucky.

Luck largely ends after you meet...After you meet one of those "right women for you" the role of luck (as in a  random event) diminishes dramatically. Then it is a relationship; some work some don't.

Exactly.  That is why I disagree with the explanation that becoming engaged to a RW with bad character (or who does not love you) is mostly a matter of bad luck.

[Gator]

Gator, no Woman leaves a man she loves for the promise of a car from a RM. Unless she was a Scammer, there had to be other things leading up to this that swayed her decision. In your case I'm sure it wasn't a Scam.

Agree. 

Short version. 

It was me, or to be more exact, how the two of us related.  Not a scam nor bad luck.

Long version.

She really liked me, and I spare the details.  Loved me?  Not nearly enough to trust me to take care of her and her children.  Lacking English skills, we had misunderstandings, and she chose not to give me the benefit of the doubt.  Her mentality was influenced by past history. She had been betrayed three times in her life by three different men who promised her everything, twice when still nursing a baby. 

The human soul can take only so much before it builds a protective wall around the heart.  I think many RW, especially in their mid-30s and 40s, have suffered deeper betrayals than what we are accustomed to seeing among AW in our peer group.  But that is another issue.

I harbor no animosity towards her and I do not consider my year with her a waste.  We had fun together, and I learned a lot.  I exited with full self-esteem believing she was the one who lost.   She later wrote to renew the relationship.  I was already with another, and being a one-woman man, my future bride wrote a letter in Russian for me to send her that said, "Have a nice life."