TR: Barnaul/Tver, Russia

[Vinnvinny]

The "fanny about" and "happened to Jerry twice before" was an attack, IMHO.   Jerry is happy, I'm happy, so the glass is fine.

Ok, Jerry isn’t fannying about then, he’s just cautious and overly conservative in his decisions making and, he hasn’t had 2 aborted visa applications in the past and, newbie’s should take note of his experiences because clearly it’s a sure fire way to happiness. Is that better for you? 

[Simoni]

Ok, Jerry isn’t fannying about then, he’s just cautious and overly conservative in his decisions making and, he hasn’t had 2 aborted visa applications in the past and, newbie’s should take note of his experiences because clearly it’s a sure fire way to happiness. Is that better for you? 

Better except the "sure fire way to happiness" sarcasm.   

Now...

Jerry is Jerry and it is his life and he is happy with his progress.  And it is a good thing that he did not take the servings an agency pushed on him.

It's fine for you to think he is "overly conservative in his decisions making..."  However, the flip side of this is that many many scammers are out there and you BETTER BE overly conservative in your decisions making." 

Newbies-- this is a hard row to hoe.  It's filled with weeds and vines, and you better be very very careful.  Don't rush.  Don't waste time with a women you are not crazy about, and do be sure she is "into you."   After you think you have found "the one," make multiple trips to see her and let the relationship develop over time.

[Simoni]

Simoni, get your FSU wife to read Jerry's Postings and then get back to us regarding what she thinks.....

Ultro, we used to live in Texas and Jerry HAS talked with Marina...

[UTRO]

Ultro, we used to live in Texas and Jerry HAS talked with Marina...

Well, maybe Marina should read this Thread.... because Jerry's Postings have given me a Migraine. Simoni, please look at both sides I have no doubt that Jerry is a guy I'd easily sit with at TGIF in SVO II sharing a pint of Piva!!

[Gator]

fannying about

The word "fanny" is a prime example of the differences in our common language.  Now we have another meaning, I suppose.   

[Diplomacy]

If Jerry had made half the amount of trips, and then went to a resort each trip.   IMO, some of the members would be down his throat, screaming Sex Tourist.

He has had 2 women negate a promise, and he is being real careful with asking a third. IMO that sounds prudent, and a lot of men would have given up by now IMO.  I give him all the credit, and the agency has even edified the fact he is a good man.

Yet, we have members torching him.  I know Jerry, you can handle it.

Now the post from the agency was very tactful and professional.  The one thing the last few years has taught me, it is what is not said that you must be aware of.

Faux Pas brought up a fine example of this.  Did the agency tell a women that he was not serious, or not a good man?

IMO an agency should have known Jerry well enough, to know what he was or was not comfortable with.  There was plenty of time prior to him being there, to discuss the fact that the Agency thought he should go to the resort.  When was this idea brought up?  After money exchanged hands?  The resort is a definite business practice with the agency.  Therefore it should be discussed well before and money exchanges hands.

Was Jerry telling you that he would give a good word for the agency, before or after the differing opinion about the resort?

I agree that for some types of men, going to the resort and having someone they can trust is great.  This agency is perfect for that type of man. I just do not see how in this scenario, a man is seen as a strong.

Maybe going to a resort is so far from the way I went about it, it is personal.  Neither side is in any sort of real life situation.  You are just seeing the best in people at a resort IMO.

I find a lot about a person, by meeting their friends and family.  I just cringe thinking about vacation trips.  I think you cheat everyone with that, and both sides are taking huge risks.  

Simoni

Great advice!

[Vinnvinny]

It's fine for you to think he is "overly conservative in his decisions making..." 

I don’t think Jerry is overly conservative, I know he is. Infact I toned down his own words …..

That's simply a personal preference that stems from my ultra-conservative personality.

Newbies ….. After you think you have found "the one," make multiple trips to see her and let the relationship develop over time.

Newbies: Good advice from Simoni of course but, if you can only make one or two trips a year to see her then don’t be too surprised to find her interest wane in favour of guys a little more decisive. As Jerry knows only too well there’s a lot of local competition out there (not to mention other WM she might meet by ‘accident’.

….. the enevitable advances she will receive from RM after you have begun relations with her.

The word "fanny" is a prime example of the differences in our common language.  Now we have another meaning, I suppose.   

‘Fannying about’ means taking longer to do something than might normally be expected. Just so you had no doubts. :-)

I agree that for some types of men, going to the resort and having someone they can trust is great.  This agency is perfect for that type of man. I just do not see how in this scenario, a man is seen as a strong.

I find a lot about a person, by meeting their friends and family.  I just cringe thinking about vacation trips.  I think you cheat everyone with that, and both sides are taking huge risks. 

I would have no problem whatsoever in spending a few days away with someone having only met them a couple of times, provided that we both clicked and felt that we both met all the criteria’s we were looking for. Jerry wouldn’t. Neither of us is right, neither of us is wrong but I don’t see how my action could be considered as not been strong and I also don’t see how such a vacation is cheating anyone or taking a huge risk. Meeting family and friends is of course important, but it wouldn’t influence long term decisions about my life one bit.

[Faux Pas]

Faux Pas brought up a fine example of this.  Did the agency tell a women that he was not serious, or not a good man?

IMO an agency should have known Jerry well enough, to know what he was or was not comfortable with.  There was plenty of time prior to him being there, to discuss the fact that the Agency thought he should go to the resort.  When was this idea brought up?  After money exchanged hands?  The resort is a definite business practice with the agency.  Therefore it should be discussed well before and money exchanges hands.

Was Jerry telling you that he would give a good word for the agency, before or after the differing opinion about the resort?

Good post. I suppose I should state for the record that, I have never sought out the services of an agency for any trip. I am just trying to understand how we got two different stories on mostly this one point. Did Russian Pearls deliberately sabotage or attempt to sabotage Jerry.  From an earlier thread Jerry started, I deduced him to be a stand up guy. Honest, forthright and his posts and stories have never wavered. Would I go the route he has? Probably not but, there are many roads traveled to this particular destination. I admire his persistence and tenacity.

Although, I have never used an such agency and at this juncture I hope that I never will but, in this instance I would see Russian Pearls as an agent for Jerry. And as such offering that a mountain resort is available and letting it go at that while he decides for himself. According to Jerry they failed miserably as an agent. I would myself be taken aback if they felt I should go to the resort when I wasn't comfortable doing so. Then, to sabotage possible relationships with ladies that I had paid for meetings with, would be another very bad business practice. I would appreciate Tatiana's answer to these questions. It would be excellent information for newbies

[Tatiana]

Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,
We are having time difference and my working day has ust started and I can participate in your discussions only now ). I've read all your comments and I am glad that this subject is interesting for many members and this means that you are really not indifferent to this.
On one hand certainly I don't want to ruin the reputation of my agency  because our team really tries to do our best to help people but on the other hand I can't disuss Jerry's staying in Barnaul in details by ethic norms. But I think that I can answer the main questions which are important for you without the details. I don't know if this help to dispell your concerns and doubts, but I'll try.
1. No, I didn't tell to any lady that Jerry is "not a good man" and that "I will find a good man" for them later. The situation was the following: in the process of communication any lady wants to know how serious man's intentions are towards her. And each of the ladies would call me several times a day and come to the office to talk to me about that. I perfectly understand them because their manner of behavior and motivation of developing the relations depend on that. And I would honestly tell to each of these women that Jerry is a wonderful man and would tell them about his merits and qualities, but I could't give the definite answer to their main question but I advised to each lady to continue to develop their relations and communication in order they could feel and understand Jerry better.
2. As for interference of the agency in the relations. I can say that Jerry had cell phone numbers of each lady he was in contact with and decided to develop communication with. I understand that he is an adult man and can build communication himself, especially because he really speaks Russian and has big exprience in all this. The agency interferes only when a man or a woman asks for help.
3. Well, it seems that the "trip" subject went to a wrong direction. We tell to each client about this opportunity but we never insist on this. I told Jerry about that but I could see that he wasn't interested in that and this topic was closed. I told him about this opportunity after he had stayed for more than 10 days in Barnaul.
4. No, Jerry didn't offend me or anybody else in the agency, he would meet with new ladies almost till the last ay of his staying here.
Your comments are welcomed. I am glad to see that there are people who really want to understand and learn how "to do" their search to get beter result with less psychological and financial losses.
Thank you to everybody,
Tatiana

[Tatiana]

I concur. Very classy and respectful. No mudslinging.
Welcome to RWD Tatiana

Dave.

Dave, Thank you very much for your kind words. Yes, I believe that we always should respect others
Tatiana

[Tatiana]

Tatiana, welcome to the forum.   I think you did an excellent job of presenting your side of the story.  Sometimes there is no right or wrong but just a difference of opinion and lack of understanding.

I was the one who talked Jerry into using your agency.   My wife was a member there and even though we did not meet through your agency she has always had nothing but good to say about you and your services.   She also considers you to be a wonderful person who really tries to help the men and women who use your agency find happiness.

I think sometimes things just don't work out as we expect.  I like Jerry and respect him and believe the things he said.  I also am quite sure that you do your best to run your agency in a professional and ethical manner and do appreciate your coming here and telling your side of things.

Hello Turboguy, I am glad to see you and the lady next to you. You got the real treasure . Thank you for your kind words. Say a big hello to your wife.
Tatiana

[Diplomacy]

I would have no problem whatsoever in spending a few days away with someone having only met them a couple of times, provided that we both clicked and felt that we both met all the criteria’s we were looking for. Jerry wouldn’t. Neither of us is right, neither of us is wrong but I don’t see how my action could be considered as not been strong and I also don’t see how such a vacation is cheating anyone or taking a huge risk. Meeting family and friends is of course important, but it wouldn’t influence long term decisions about my life one bit.

I have no real issue about going to a resort with a woman after a few dates.   I understand that there are a lot of nuances, that a FSUW watches for in man.  

How does he interact with others?

Moving through a crowd, waiters, friends, family, buying things, children, animals etc.

Understanding "Your Soul"

Calm, nervous, or easily agitated?

Interesting, funny, or barely better than a stick in the eye?

Attentive, self absorbed, or has no clue what a woman wants?

I could go on for a while, but the more "favorable traits" you have the "Stronger Man" you are.  I just find it hard, that a resort gives the woman the best understanding of what type of man you are.  Just my 2 Kopecks. If the vacation works for you, all the better.

In this pursuit, I would be more interested in what the FSUW are looking for.  Maybe a resort is a good "Ice Breaker".  I do not know, and have not gone that route.  I sure do like the topic of the thread, and the questions that arose for a newbie to ponder.

Tatiana:

Thank you for your response.  

[TwoBitBandit]

I'm sure that Jerry will be back soon and will give his side of this she-said he-said issue.

However,

In addition, this agency wanted me to spend two or three days alone with a woman, to take her to a resort in the mountains after only one or two meetings!  I couldn't believe it.  After the fourth or fifth time they suggested this, I started to wonder if they didn't have some kind of kickback arrangement with the resort that they kept pushing or something.  Dunno, just strange.  I told them that I prefer to keep things at the "friends level" for a while when I meet a woman, to have several meetings like that first and then see if anything develops.  They told me that this was not "the correct way" of finding a woman...

3. Well, it seems that the "trip" subject went to a wrong direction. We tell to each client about this opportunity but we never insist on this. I told Jerry about that but I could see that he wasn't interested in that and this topic was closed. I told him about this opportunity after he had stayed for more than 10 days in Barnaul.

If this topic was closed, why does Jerry insist that you keep pushing it?

...and then subsequently refused to arrange any meetings with new women!

Tatiana, you didn't give an on-topic response to this.  Did you or did you not do this?

[Ade]

I'm sure that Jerry will be back soon and will give his side of this she-said he-said issue.

However,
If this topic was closed, why does Jerry insist that you keep pushing it?

Tatiana, you didn't give an on-topic response to this.  Did you or did you not do this?

Dude, what do you expect from this? There are two people which have a difference of opinion on what happened and both have had several good personal recommendations from others here. As I see it, it's highly probable that this is just a series of misunderstandings and there's no "bad guy" to be flamed here and if there were, you wouldn't know as there's just no proof either way.

As for Jerry's methodology, well, IMO, I think that more than 20 trips, 2 fiancées that backed out, and an "ultra-conservative" attitude says it all to me.

I've not used an agency and I don't plan to either but going by the posts here, if I were going to use one I'd certainly consider Tatiana's without a qualm.

[Tatiana]

I'm sure that Jerry will be back soon and will give his side of this she-said he-said issue.

However,
If this topic was closed, why does Jerry insist that you keep pushing it?

Tatiana, you didn't give an on-topic response to this.  Did you or did you not do this?

Hello, I believe that there is no "he-said or "she-said" issue because I do not try to blame anybody for anything.
No, I didn't do that. Jerry could meet even with the most recent lady who was not published on the web-site yet.
Tatiana

[Tatiana]

I'm sure that Jerry will be back soon and will give his side of this she-said he-said issue.

However,
If this topic was closed, why does Jerry insist that you keep pushing it?

Tatiana, you didn't give an on-topic response to this.  Did you or did you not do this?

Sorry, I want to correct in stead of "could meet" I wanted to say "have met" when he was in Barnaul.

[Tatiana]

Dude, what do you expect from this? There are two people which have a difference of opinion on what happened and both have had several good personal recommendations from others here.
I've not used an agency and I don't plan to either but going by the posts here, if I were going to use one I'd certainly consider Tatiana's without a qualm.

Hello, thank you for your true words. The situation is simple "people can see the same situation differently" and that is it.
Tatiana

[TwoBitBandit]

Dude, what do you expect from this? There are two people which have a difference of opinion on what happened and both have had several good personal recommendations from others here. As I see it, it's highly probable that this is just a series of misunderstandings and there's no "bad guy" to be flamed here and if there were, you wouldn't know as there's just no proof either way.

As for Jerry's methodology, well, IMO, I think that more than 20 trips, 2 fiancées that backed out, and an "ultra-conservative" attitude says it all to me.

I've not used an agency and I don't plan to either but going by the posts here, if I were going to use one I'd certainly consider Tatiana's without a qualm.

Dude, I just think there's more to this story than Tatiana is telling us.

I agree that people can have different opinions.  This entirely explains why to you Tatiana smells like roses, but to me she smells like a rat.

[Tatiana]

Dude, I just think there's more to this story than Tatiana is telling us.

I agree that people can have different opinions.  This entirely explains why to you Tatiana smells like roses, but to me she smells like a rat.

I believe that you could be politer. We are here to share opinions and we MUST respect each other.

[Ade]

Dude, I just think there's more to this story than Tatiana is telling us.

I agree that people can have different opinions.  This entirely explains why to you Tatiana smells like roses, but to me she smells like a rat.

And you want to believe that because? Why? Really, because a guy turns up here and says this? Like I said, both them have personal recommendations from several people here so isn't it far more likely that it's some sort of misunderstanding? Try to be a little objective.

Sometimes people here look so hard for something negative they can't help but find it even when it's not there.

[TwoBitBandit]

Tatiana,

To be perfectly clear: I only have a use for politeness to the degree I find it useful.  I'm polite when it helps me, and I'm a ruthless pit bull when it helps me.  I don't give a rat's ass about your feelings, and if you want my respect you'll have to earn it.

First of all, it's pretty clear why you're here: you are running a business, and Jerry has made allegations about the quality of your services.  Being a businessperson, you want customers to be attracted to your business, therefore you've come to defend your reputation.  You have a strong incentive to "spin the story" in your favor.  Not to say that's what you're doing: I am just pointing out that you have an incentive to do so.

It's not clear that Jerry has any incentive at all to make allegations against you other than a reasonable self-righteousness in response to what he perceives to be an injustice.  Certainly, whether he complains about your services or not has no meaningful impact on the future of his life. 

My beef with you is this: Jerry was a paying client of yours.  If you put the nature of the business involving matchmaking aside, isn't that much different than any other type of consulting or agency business.  Therefore, you have a fiduciary duty to him.  (Wikipedia has a great explanation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary_duty) of this concept if you're unfamiliar with it.)

I can already hear the counterargument: you or someone else is going to point out that all of this took place, well, in Russia, where the corruption, expense and cost of the legal system makes contract law difficult to enforce.  I've spent time on the ground in your country, and I know that the business culture there is a dog-eat-dog world, and the goal of a business relationship is to shaft the other guy as quickly as possible.  And being that it, well, Russia, the legal concept of fiduciary duty doesn't apply.  I don't really give a rat's ass about that fallacious counterargument: I'm a westerner, and I'm going to judge people by western concepts.

You seem to want to gloss all this over as some sort of a "misunderstanding."  For sure, it's unclear exactly what transpired in some of these cases like the allegation that you planted the idea in one woman's mind that Jerry "wasn't a good man."  Your spin is that you didn't say that, but instead you told them about his "merits and qualities." (For the sake of argument, we'll assume that your conversation wasn't explicitly malicious)  At the end of this, the woman walked away with the impression that Jerry was not a good man.

So, as an outside observer without direct knowledge I can see there are a variety of explanations.  Perhaps the woman in question is lying, or perhaps she "read between the lines" of what you said for a message you were telegraphing but didn't explicitly state, or perhaps the girl misunderstood you.  But the key grief I have with you doesn't require me to distinguish between those explanations: they all support the conclusion that you failed your fiduciary duty.  While I can see that the "icky" nature of your business would keep you from wanting to explicitly sell a male client in the same way that a real estate agent might aggressively sell an old worn-down house, your fiduciary duty precludes you from saying anything that would lead a woman to reach that conclusion except completely by herself.

I could write similar arguments about fiduciary duty to the rest of the "misunderstandings" here, but they'd all end with the same line: you have a higher responsibility to Jerry that you seem to think.  The "misunderstandings" here are enough to make me believe you failed your duty to him.

I have sympathy for Jerry because I've been in his situation.  Early relationships between men and women are delicate, and I've had complications thrown into more than one because some dolt at an agency does something without thinking it through or without sensitivity to the situation.  A guy like Jerry invests a lot in this.  He's not just some idle super-rich guy with a lot of spare time: instead, he's an upper-middle-class guy loosely chained to his employer.  His time in Russia comes at a significant cost: not only in terms of money, but also in terms of time and lost sleep and emotional investment and the pure grief of dealing with your famously apethetic countrymen.  Having made a huge investment to meet women and knowing you may only have serious mutual chemistry with perhaps one in ten, you find that some zhlob in an agency has carelessly or purposefully sabotaged it, sometimes only for the prospect of possibly earning a few hundred roubles by inserting themselves into the middle somehow.

I will say one thing in your credit: you're certainly no worse than most of the other agencies that aren't explicitly scams.  You guys all pull the same stuff and do the same annoying things, which is why I don't patronize y'all anymore and just use the Russian language sites...being that I've studied Russian for awhile and can communicate pretty well without feeding at the dirty trough of MOB.

[Vinnvinny]

To be perfectly clear: I only have a use for politeness to the degree I find it useful.  I'm polite when it helps me, and I'm a ruthless pit bull when it helps me.  I don't give a rat's ass about your feelings, and if you want my respect you'll have to earn it.

…. which is why I don't patronize y'all anymore and just use the Russian language sites...being that I've studied Russian for awhile and can communicate pretty well without feeding at the dirty trough of MOB.

Is your Russian good enough yet to be arrogant, rude and discourteous to the fairer sex in their native tongue or are you still using English as a fallback for this purpose when politeness hasn’t brought you your desired response?

Tatiana: Most members’ here will read between the lines and will have reached their own conclusions. I would have thought that for the majority you have in the circumstances more than adequately responded given the restrictions of ethical responsibilities and constraints you have no doubt worked within.

[Gator]

Tatiana...You have a strong incentive to "spin the story" in your favor.  Not to say that's what you're doing: I am just pointing out that you have an incentive to do so.

It's not clear that Jerry has any incentive at all to make allegations against you other than a reasonable self-righteousness in response to what he perceives to be an injustice. 

Looking for a motive?  OK, what was Tatiana's motive to sabotage Jerry's remaining days?

Therefore, you have a fiduciary duty to him......you failed your fiduciary duty. 

IMO, that is a stretch.  We do not know the contract between Jerry and RP.  Further, what could be Tatiana's conflict of interest? 

[Misha]

My beef with you is this: Jerry was a paying client of yours.  If you put the nature of the business involving matchmaking aside, isn't that much different than any other type of consulting or agency business.

My beef would be the attitude of some men. Yes, Jerry was a client, but keep in mind that she is not selling goods, but arranging meetings with women, who deserve as much respect as the client. I am inferring from Tatiana's posts that she was doing her best to meet the needs of her client, while trying to deal with the likely disappointment of the women who are in her agency. Jerry seems like an attractive guy. It is not surprising that some women may have fallen for him, and would have been disappointed when he turned down their offer to take the relationship a bit farther. Women don't like rejection any more than men  I empathize with Tatiana as she has to deal with the demands of the men and balance it with the feelings of the women.   

Therefore, you have a fiduciary duty to him.  (Wikipedia has a great explanation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary_duty) of this concept if you're unfamiliar with it.)

I would say that she has an ethical duty both to her clients and to the women in her agency.

While I can see that the "icky" nature of your business would keep you from wanting to explicitly sell a male client in the same way that a real estate agent might aggressively sell an old worn-down house, your fiduciary duty precludes you from saying anything that would lead a woman to reach that conclusion except completely by herself.

Again, Tatiana is not selling bottles of vodka or sides of beef. She is dealing with real men AND real women. Sure, it would be easier if she simply ran a scam agency: there would be no disappointed women as they would know that their role was to fleece the men. You may consider it "icky" but I believe that she has to treat both her male clients as well as the women who are in her agency with a modicum of decency. Clearly, she is not running a scam agency, so she has to deal with the disappointment and unmet expectations of the women. 

I don't patronize y'all anymore and just use the Russian language sites...being that I've studied Russian for awhile and can communicate pretty well without feeding at the dirty trough of MOB.

Here, I agree with you entirely. That way if either the man or the woman has any issues, they have to deal with each other directly, sort things out themselves and have nobody else to blame when things don't work out. Given that Jerry clearly knows some Russian, I can't understand why he just doesn't use Russian language dating sites.

[GoodOlBoy]

To cut to the chase here: I cannot recommend the agency Russian Pearls and then some.  There were a couple of times when they left me without any support whatsoever for two or more days at a time and if I had been a newbie at this thing, I would have been in deep sheet river without any waist-high boots to help out...... 

This isn't a complaint so much as it is a request not to flood a thread with so much of this kind of garbage that someone new to the process might miss the valuable information that I was trying to pass along.  The basics of which should have been:

Russian Pearls = BAD; Lifetime Partners/Tver Angels = GOOD.

Well, Well, Well...... After reading Tatiana's side of this little "story", it appears that the "RWD ANOINTED ONE'S" may have a little "egg on their face".

When you go home tonight, you might want to look into the "MIRROR OF SHAME" before retiring to your beds.

You know, the one's who rushed to Jerry's side when people like GoodOlBoy, SMS60 and Misha started to ask questions about this whole TR at the beginning pages?

Yes, in the beginning of this thread when the whole back slapping, good job, atta-boys were being handed out to Jerry and then people like myself..."THE MENTAL MIGETS" were being told (in a condescending tone) that our questions were insignificant and unneeded.

Gee.... Is it possible that somebody wasn't telling the "whole truth" ?  

Maybe before a member is allowed to come on this forum and smear/slander a business owner (Russian Pearls), the RWD ADMIN (Dan) should contact that business owner and allow them to post a rebuttal to any scurrilous accusations made here?

For me personally, if somebody came on this forum and started to write unsavory things about my business here in Miami, instructing thousands of people not to use my business, I can assure this forum I would not be as polite in my rebuttal as Tatiana has been.

Keep up the good work Tatiana.


GOB