TR: Barnaul/Tver, Russia

[OlgaH]

 Some of the members here seem to be delusional about the poor, weak Russian women needing to be saved.  

Especially from Siberia   

[acrzybear]

Touche'

[Simoni]

Mike, you're not considering a further possibility: some time ago someone suggested (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7985.0) that Olga and I are actually the same person, offering Sandrolga as a more fitting nick (I countered with Olgandro as more gentlemanly ).

I like Sandrolga, and will be on the "look-out" for posts fitting of such a duo 

[OlgaH]

For some reason, I'm experiencing a feeling of... condejavusion


okay, that was really bad. 

Better? or one more? 

[Ade]

Some of the members here seem to be delusional about the poor, weak Russian women needing to be saved.  

Actually, do you really think that? Personally, I think that anyone that's taken the trip or read a little understands that few, if any, really need "saving".

The concern of some, to the point of becoming irrational, is that women are being objectified, being lied to and are being treated disrespectfully.

Now, if a woman is signed up with an agency and hasn't been told by them that the men they will date will also be dating others, then that's the agencies fault for not disclosing the facts or possibly for deliberately misleading them.

I, personally, don't have issues with guys dating as many women as want to date him, as long as everything is out in the open and nobody is being misled to believe, either explicitly or implicitly, that it's anything other than causal dating.

The issues I really have is with guys that go to the FSU and meet a lot of ladies outside the agencies and deliberately lie to them, raising their expectations, explicitly misleading them into thinking they are the only one they are there to see, and so on. These guys are, IMO, cowards and cannot have much respect for the women they are going to see; what a way to start a relationship.  Actually, I don't even have the creative writing skills to describe how shitty I think these guys are. Of course, guys that do the same thing in their home countries are no better.

[acrzybear]

Actually, do you really think that? Personally, I think that anyone that's taken the trip or read a little understands that few, if any, really need "saving".

The concern of some, to the point of becoming irrational, is that women are being objectified, being lied to and are being treated disrespectfully.

Jaded

  I was being sarcastic.  Some of the folks here get all worked up about a woman's virtue and treating them right blah blah blah.  Do you really think women in general are the weaker sex? Especially Russian woman?  Now perhaps some of the women might be naive when they start this international dating routine, but I can't really see that as a national trend for the ladies, especially growing up in a FSU country. One thing I have learned doing what I do is that humans are fallible creatures, I no longer worry about things or people that I do not have control over.  There will always be men using women and vice versa- that is just the way it is.  Is it right? No it is not, but it is what it is.

  If something wrong happens in my presence, I will do my best to correct it. The main problem with guys that are insincere about their intentions is that it makes things twice as difficult for guys that are sincere.  But if I happen to meet a lady that has been "burned" and she can't see what type of person I am and give things a chance- then it was not meant to be and everyone moves on with their lives- no big deal.

  Until you meet someone in person and actually get to know them-they are only a pen pal!!  People get too wrapped up with their emotions and try to rush things.
 
I am not politically correct, I may not be considered a "gentleman" by some and some may think of me as an uneducated knuckle dragging Neanderthal, but I am always upfront and honest and am usually respectful with the people I encounter, no matter if it a Russian woman 4000 miles away or the neighbor down the street.  To wrap this up the basic problem with the world is that people are not honest with each other, I don't care if it's a white lie-it is still a lie.

 Ok, I'll get off my soapbox

[Gator]

CrazyBear,

I notice that you have had to explain the sarcastic intent of a couple of your recent posts.     Not being able to see facial expressions, sarcasm can be misunderstood, dependent upon the receiver's personality. 

Don't change your style because Russians enjoy sarcasm.  I suppose it helped them endure difficult times.

[OlgaH]

Olga,

So Jerry got busted!   So what happened next?

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8953.msg168152#msg168152

[acrzybear]

(For the folks that don't know me the aforementioned post is sarcasm)

Gator

I figured that would happen, that is why I placed the disclaimer at the bottom.  But by the time folks get to that part of the sentence their brains are only processing what they want to see.   :noidea:  My sarcastic skills have been finely honed by years of being a civil servant

[HiTech]

My sarcastic skills have been finely honed by years of being a civil servant

You would be the first servant I have ever met who is civil.

HiTech

[SANDRO43]

You would be the first servant I have ever met who is civil.

You're not too familiar with butlers, then .

[OlgaH]

Today I have received a bitter sarcastic PM from the author of this thread regarding my comments on his "adventures" in Russia. And I would like to tell that after that PM I'm inclined to believe Tatiana.

Tatiana, I fully understand you     

[av8or1]

Today I have received a bitter sarcastic PM from the author of this thread regarding my comments on his "adventures" in Russia. And I would like to tell that after that PM I'm inclined to believe Tatiana.

Tatiana, I fully understand you     

Uhhhh...no, my comments were regarding your personal attacks on me and your intolerance to other viewpoints, but I digress.  It's amazing how some people can be so sure of their opinions without even knowing a person.  That's called egotism and unfortunately on RWD it is quite widespread.

Also, I sent a PM to you in order to discuss this issue privately.  It doesn't surprise me that you breached that sense of confidentiality though.  As you say, "I fully understand you. "

Sheesh.

I don't know Dan (administrator).  I am taking a trip to Kharkov next month and was considering creating another TR, but with this kind of feedback, intolerance, back-handed remarks, drawing conclusions about people you don't know and then engaging in ripe name-calling, I just don't know that it's worth it.  I don't really care what anyone else thinks but the responses from Olga, GOB and others sure do get annoying.  They take sides without even knowing people, usually out of emotion because those people whom they side with have the same beliefs.  At the same time they ridicule others because they have a different opinion/belief.  What kind of person does that?  It's disrespectful to say the least, amongst other things.

I'd like to help others, but at what price?  Dunno...

Whatever.  Too many people with too much time on their hands, Olga, GOB and the like...Olga actually thinks she knows why my former fiancee ended our engagement!  Bwahahahahaha!  I'd find that side-splittingly funny if it wasn't so ridiculous and stupid.  And egotistical.  HIGHLY egotistical, but again, I digress.

But whatever.  I attempted to forge a few of these soured relationships tonight via PM.  And for you Olga that means "PRIVATE Message".  I did so because I still believe in what was the original intent of these forums and that is to help others by sharing information.  To share our experiences.  Unfortunately if someone doesn't agree with your opinions, those experiences get lost in the proverbial cesspool (that another poster aptly described it as being) of insults and name-calling that inevitably ensues.

I'd prefer that we all get along and be respectful of other people's points of view.  Again, that just doesn't seem to happen on RWD, to my amazement.  Heck there was even one post earlier in this thread that accused me of being intolerant, which is the exact OPPOSITE of everything I have ever advocated.  I sent him a PM as well, but he didn't seem to get the message, unfortunately.

So I dunno...Dan, didn't someone mention a section of the forums where you can post a TR without any flames?  I looked, but only briefly (admittedly), and didn't find it.  I am considering posting my Kharkov experiences there, just to prevent those experiences from being distorted and taken in a completely different light than they were ever intended, like GOB, Olga and others tend to do.  Anyway, does that exist?  If so, where is it?

Thanks,

Jerry

[Vinnvinny]

They take sides without even knowing people, usually out of emotion because those people whom they side with have the same beliefs.  At the same time they ridicule others because they have a different opinion/belief.  What kind of person does that?  It's disrespectful to say the least, amongst other things.

I'd prefer that we all get along and be respectful of other people's points of view.  Again, that just doesn't seem to happen on RWD, to my amazement.  Heck there was even one post earlier in this thread that accused me of being intolerant, which is the exact OPPOSITE of everything I have ever advocated.  I sent him a PM as well, but he didn't seem to get the message, unfortunately.

Well I got your message Jerry so it wasn't me. I agree with everything you have written above except that I would like to point out to you as I did in my PM that it was you that wrote on the July 01, 2008, 02:15:21 AM:

“It also doesn't match today's reality much in that it focuses on men who do the tours.  Such men have a few screws loose in my mind.”

Well I have done a few tours so according to you, I have a few screws loose. Remind me, who is actually ridiculing who here?

[Admin]

So I dunno...Dan, didn't someone mention a section of the forums where you can post a TR without any flames?  I looked, but only briefly (admittedly), and didn't find it.  I am considering posting my Kharkov experiences there, just to prevent those experiences from being distorted and taken in a completely different light than they were ever intended, like GOB, Olga and others tend to do.  Anyway, does that exist?  If so, where is it?

Thanks,

Jerry

Jerry,

Yep - we have a forum specifically dedicated to a TR "sans Responses". You will probably find it from the main forum index page, and here is a quick link to take you directly there -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?board=60.0.

Feel free to post your TR there. I know I will enjoy it - and, I suspect others will both enjoy it and learn from it.

- Dan

[Faux Pas]

Jerry

FWIW I enjoyed your trip report and hope that you continue to post them in the future. Maybe it is just me but trip reports should be a questions/answers type interaction to really do some good and help other members. Personal feelings, overly critical personal observations should be directed to another thread. Even though I may have let my passion get the best of me on a TR thread or two. We are a passionate bunch and I suspect that is mostly why we gather here. Please try to look over that as much as you can.

[OlgaH]

Uhhhh...no, my comments were regarding your personal attacks on me and your intolerance to other viewpoints, but I digress. 

Also, I sent a PM to you in order to discuss this issue privately.  It doesn't surprise me that you breached that sense of confidentiality though.  As you say, "I fully understand you. "


Olga actually thinks she knows why my former fiancee ended our engagement! 

Thanks,

Jerry

My personal attacks on you? There are just my comments on your activity in dating in these thread. If you can not take it you should put a disclaimer "If you are not agree with all what I have written, please don't post in my thread!!"

Why privately? What are you afraid of?  I'm not against if you will quote me and make your comments.

Actually I wrote to you that I understand why your fiancee ended your engagement. I'm sorry, Jerry, but whole your post above along with your PM to me sounds more like a hysteria.  

You are welcome.  

[av8or1]

My personal attacks on you? There are just my comments on your activity in dating in these thread. If you can not take it you should put a disclaimer "If you are not agree with all what I have written, please don't post in my thread!!"

Go back and re-read your posts Olga.  They are full of quotes that are taken way out of context, thus giving them a completely different and INCORRECT meaning that you then draw INCORRECT conclusions on.  And your conclusions are regarding my character and intentions, of which you know nothing.  This, Olga, is by definition AN ATTACK ON MY CHARACTER AND I FIND IT VERY OFFENSIVE.  You seem (and note that I said "seem") to be so full of yourself, think you know everything that you accuse me of being afraid of something?  Hysteria?  And you truly believe that you "understand" why my fiancee ended our engagement when you have never even met, seen from a distance, spoken with or gotten to know either her OR me?  That is a clear sign of egotism and is very offensive in nature.  It's also so ridiculous that it speaks for itself.

Why privately? What are you afraid of?  I'm not against if you will quote me and make your comments.

Why publicly?  Why can't you address me face-to-face (so to speak)?  What are YOU afraid of?

Actually I wrote to you that I understand why your fiancee ended your engagement. I'm sorry, Jerry, but whole your post above along with your PM to me sounds more like a hysteria.  

Don't understand the difference you are trying to point out by underlining "understand", but whatever.  Hysteria.  Hahaha!  Olga, that would mean that I cared what you had to say.  I don't.  Your posts are so stupid and are a sign of "hysteria" in and of themselves...I mean who sits around all day and digs up posts that I made years ago and then takes only select comments from those posts, thereby distorting their meaning and then draws incorrect conclusions on it?  And you say I have hysteria?  That is hilarious.  And sad.

You are welcome.  

Yup, a quote that smacks of a woman who thinks she's perfect, never does any wrong and who is so egotistic and full of herself that her nose bleeds from being carried so high in the air.  She's also too caught up in herself to notice that most everyone else couldn't care less...I don't know you so can't say for sure, but you certainly give indications of being that way...wow.

Anyway, I'm done with you Olga.  No more responses from me.  Your "insights" are about as useless as they are accurate.  You change the meanings of words to suit your own purposes.  I don't know what your agenda is exactly, but whatever...I'd like to just be able to get along with you and GOB and the like, despite our differing points of view.  Y'all don't seem to be responsive to that notion however.  Too bad really...oh well, I tried.

Feel free to have at it now, but you'll be speaking to a blank wall, at least in terms of any attention that I may give your posts.  You know not of what you speak, but speak as though you know what you're saying.  One of the surest signs of ... well nothing good.

Jerry

[av8or1]

Well I got your message Jerry so it wasn't me. I agree with everything you have written above except that I would like to point out to you as I did in my PM that it was you that wrote on the July 01, 2008, 02:15:21 AM:

“It also doesn't match today's reality much in that it focuses on men who do the tours.  Such men have a few screws loose in my mind.”

Well I have done a few tours so according to you, I have a few screws loose. Remind me, who is actually ridiculing who here?

Vinny, it was you but didn't want to name names.  I was trying to discuss it privately man-to-man.  A concept that seems to be lost here.  Whatever.  Glad that we seem to agree on things, that is what is important.

Regarding the quote I made regarding tours, you have taken my meaning in a negative light, which I did not intend.  I apologize if I gave you the wrong impression.  When speaking about tours, I wasn't intending to comment on the men so much as those who put on the tours.  The "few screws loose" comment simply meant that these guys are probably being taken for a ride by these outfits that conduct these tours and I hate to see any guy get taken by them.  That's what I meant, though I see it may not have been clear by my comments.  Hope that helps.

Jerry

[OlgaH]

Why publicly?  Why can't you address me face-to-face (so to speak)?  What are YOU afraid of?

Anyway, I'm done with you Olga.  No more responses from me.

Jerry

Because it is a public board. You have published your dating diary on the open board and I made my comments. If you are not agree with my comments you are free to quote me and make your own comments and argue publicly, instead of crying how I'm unfair. If you have nothing adequate to say on my comments, so I understand your decision to retreat.    

[av8or1]

Jerry,

Yep - we have a forum specifically dedicated to a TR "sans Responses". You will probably find it from the main forum index page, and here is a quick link to take you directly there -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?board=60.0.

Feel free to post your TR there. I know I will enjoy it - and, I suspect others will both enjoy it and learn from it.

- Dan

Hey Dan!

Ok, thank you for the link.  Based on your support and the support of others who have responded to me by PM, I have decided to post a TR regarding my upcoming experience in Kharkov.  I will indeed utilize this "sans Responses" option however, as there are simply too many folk here in RWD whose posts tend to shed more heat than light regarding this FSU endeavor as a whole.  Again, my intention is to educate and inform others about my experiences in an effort to help them in any future attempts that they may undertake across the pond in the FSU.  It is my belief that the signal-to-noise ratio is far too low when the material being presented is commented upon in a negative light, at least without any supporting evidence.  Too many times posters like Olga, GOB and others speak like they have a good understanding of something when in fact they have no (I mean ZERO) experience with that something, whatever it may be.  To engage in a discussion of a subject without any experience with/in that subject is simply something so hypocritical that I have quite frankly grown tired of witnessing it.  Making matters worse is the intolerance of differing viewpoints, beliefs and opinions.  And the personal insults and ill-formed conclusions regarding someone's character take the aforementioned hypocrisy a step TOO far.  Sorry folk, but it's just "a bridge TOO far."

So I'm done.  I'll post a TR about my future trips because as I have said many times, I believe in the notion of helping others (I do true, actual volunteer work "in real life" locally too).  However I won't have the time, effort and energy that I take in sharing my experiences go for naught because of a few bad apples.  I trust that those bad apples won't allow their egos to extend so far as to start a thread in another section that comments on my posts in the "sans Responses" section, though I could envision them being tacky enough to do that.  In that scenario, hopefully Dan will step in and perform his Administrator duties that he does so well by shutting such a thread down.  Clearly it would defeat the purpose of a "sans Responses" section.

And with that, we're off.  I will begin my new thread in the next few days.  I'm already doing prep work for the trip and I'd like to pass along information regarding that effort.  For now y'all take care and I'll see you on the other side.  Meaning a different thread! ;-)

Best,

Jerry

[Admin]

I trust that those bad apples won't allow their egos to extend so far as to start a thread in another section that comments on my posts in the "sans Responses" section, though I could envision them being tacky enough to do that.  In that scenario, hopefully Dan will step in and perform his Administrator duties that he does so well by shutting such a thread down.  Clearly it would defeat the purpose of a "sans Responses" section.

And with that, we're off.  I will begin my new thread in the next few days.  I'm already doing prep work for the trip and I'd like to pass along information regarding that effort.  For now y'all take care and I'll see you on the other side.  Meaning a different thread! ;-)

Best,

Jerry

Jerry,

I don't recall perfectly, but I think I recall a parallel topic that some folks started the last time there was a TR in the sans Responses forum.

Interesting thing though - when folks realize they are not going to get a rise (response) from the OP, it is fascinating to see how many will not bother to submit their comments.

Anyway - let's start it up and see where it goes.

I think it'll work out just fine.

- Dan

[OlgaH]

 Too many times posters like Olga, GOB and others speak like they have a good understanding of something when in fact they have no (I mean ZERO) experience with that something, whatever it may be.  
Jerry

Jerry,

can you imagine that such poster as Olga, was born and have been living in Russia   and now she is happily married to an American man.  

You can believe in your educational purpose   and I will make my own educational comments    

Just please try to control your own ego, be more adequate  and stop to accuse people of their unfairness towards you because they have their own opinion that is different than yours.  

[Stepford_Wife]

Let me jump really quick into this thread, and  I'm out to make a dinner for hubby like a good traditional wife:D
Gee, people, sounds like some folks here feel they are self-proclaimed prosecutors. Leave the OP alone, after reading a bit of this thread he seems like a very sane, decent and sound guy. So he went on a trip to visit many, do you think the girls listed with the Russian marriage agencies are just sitting at home, sewing their wedding dress and waiting for that special Prince Charming? Yeah, right. OP didn't promise any girl that he is going to visit her exclusively. If girls are fine with that, what's the problem. I personally am against it, and would never agree to be involved with VM guy.  But those girls are adults, they know that OP didn't come for someone exclusively. You don't like it, than don't go on a date with him.  What's the big deal?
av8or, keep posting, nevermind those negative remarks. Why do you give a damn about them, there are much more people who support you here. Some RW can be so nagging, omg.
Good luck in Ukraine, there are some really gorgeous girls there
... seek, and ye shall find"

[av8or1]

This sounds like the hubby who is talking, so I'll go ahead and respond.......

Jerry,

can you imagine that such poster as Olga, was born and have been living in Russia   and now she is happily married to an American man.  

I am not disputing that.  What I am disputing is that just because she's a RW doesn't mean that she knows SQUAT about my relationship with A DIFFERENT RW.  And for her to go on and on and on like she does know what she is talking about...well, THAT is what I have a problem with.  But whatever...

Just please try to control your own ego, be more adequate  and stop to accuse people of their unfairness towards you because they have their own opinion that is different than yours.  

No ego at work here, I am not accusing anyone of anything, so get your facts straight before you utter them.  And finally, get a clue, go back and re-read the posts, it's NOT me who is intolerant of other views, it's folk like Olga and GOB and the sort.  But I digress.

And with that, I'll close my responses to you as well.  You are entitled to your opinion.

Best,

Jerry