Is it Real ?

[Misha]

Would anyone accept as even close to conclusive any study that had as many qualifiers as those noted in bold above?  I know I wouldn't even dare to publish such an inconclusive study.

Quite simply, researchers never say that research is 100% conclusive beyond any kind of doubt... Only those who "believe" and whose knowledge is based on blind faith put forward their ideas without doubt. That is why research is conducted, to learn the truth. But, true, ignorance is so much simpler. You just state the "truth" based on "faith" and you yell "poppycocks" when any research contradicts your perspective 

[felix8787]

Why don't we just ask the guys from Myth Busters to do a show about it and get it over with.

[Wienerin]

I have seen far too many insensitive attacks here the last few weeks.

Time after time, we read here about gay men kissing and touching in public. An alien landing from space reading this would assume this is normal behavior for gay men.

Such posts degrade ALL gays with such extreme examples.  Such statements show a lack of knowledge and experience; the vast vast majority of gay men do not act in that way.   Ironically, they are much more in control of their actions than are the very posters who are attacking them here!

For educated western men, it's inappropriate to post such statements as we are seeing here.  It reflect badly for all of us.

Well, I'm not the least disturbed by men kissing or holding hands in public? in an appropriate for public display manner, I'm sorry. More overt intimate caressess or as someone said "fondling" seem to me in bad taste - same as for getero-couples above, say 16-17 y.o.

And of course, no one is objecting to guys who do not exchange French kissess or tenderly (passionately) grab each other's assess. Again? such behavior in adults is inappropriate no matter what the sexual persuasion|composition of a couple.

As to the other stuff... Excuse me, but what should be gay men or lesbian women doing on this Forum? If I'm not interested in ownership of a Corvette, I'm not going to a 'Vette lovers site. Same as I'm not visiting gay or lesbian sites. This is a pretty specific, "technical" borad - for men interested in brides from FSU.

I know when this thread started - with TR of a guy who visited a gay club in StP. And with people trying to tell him that it's not at all an innocent and moreover safe pastime in Russia or Ukraine. With some members for I do not know what reasons of their own this drew heated responses about homophobia and what wonderful people gays are and how everyone should learn their lifestyle etc... balderdash I say. But whatever.

Still no reason for people whom passionately kissing and "fondling" in public adults  make uncomfortable. BTW elsewhere on this forum I wrote a story of us trying to get service in broad daylight in a sidewalk cafe - which turned out to be a gay watering place. The proprietors, waiters and clientele treated us as if we were gay and them - a bunch of Nazi skinheads. (with a philosophical sigh and shrug) well, it takes all kinds.

[Misha]

Excuse me, but what should be gay men or lesbian women doing on this Forum?

I do not understand what you are getting at. Who is gay here? Nobody said they were gay, unless, you are implying that not spouting off anti-gay diatribes makes some of us gay... 

[Vinnvinny]

I get very confused when the thread title keeps changing. Is this the pre-nup thread, the gay one or St Pete's? 

[Daveman]

Whether homosexuality is perverse, don't know don't really care, but the topic sure appears to be pervasive.  

[Wienerin]

You are making a faux pas.  In most jobs in this country, if you made such posts attacking homosexuals or racial minorities on company time or associated your company with such attitudes, you would be reprimand or fired.  Such verbiage is not normal nor in good taste.

Surely you're not suggesting that "kissing and fondling" on company time - be it hetero-, homo- or a racial minority - is praised? And yes, I - or anyone for that matter can object (and will - in my experience). In a bar or club - OK no problem. In public - well, within a certain limit. Just showing good taste, I suppose. In workplace - except as a greeting or congratulation (or commiseration, alas) - definitely no.

[Wienerin]

Misha give me some proof that it is correct. See? That works both ways. It would appear you want me to invent a strawman to attack your strawman. You didn't explain what happens to the left-handed younger sibling with whorling  counterclockwise hair who is heterosexual? Kind of throws a wrench of fact into your whole position. If all I need to is post a link like you did to prove a point I can do that too. It is just another side to an argument which neither has been proven: http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=8802

just because you read it and believe it doesn't make it true

Well, as was already stated many times even here, sexual orientation is a complex phenomenon, and most of the branches of science that deal with it as well as the research methods and equipment are pretty much in their swaddling clothes. Also until very recent time on the history scale, nobody was actually researching it. Some societies took this - the homosexuality - in their stride so to say, some condemned it, some accepted "situational" homosexuality within more4 or less strict boundaries.

But here are hard facts - the percentage of homosexuals within any mammalian population remains pretty much stable on the average for all species. Mice to humans. For millennia - as far as could be juidged. And yes, nobody quite knows why this is so but it's a hard fact? take it or leave it. Nobody quite knows why there is electricity, but it's a hard fact that there is

Homosexuals are as "normal" as straight people. They are not more or less smart, handsome, talented, honest, etc. To my mind - no big deal at all. There may be some psychological traits as the result of long-term prejudice or persecution - as in any persecuted group, but that's it.

Nobody should be rabidly interested in who does what with whom - between consenting adults not in a blood relationship. As simple as that.

[ScottinCrimea]

Quite simply, researchers never say that research is 100% conclusive beyond any kind of doubt... Only those who "believe" and whose knowledge is based on blind faith put forward their ideas without doubt. That is why research is conducted, to learn the truth. But, true, ignorance is so much simpler. You just state the "truth" based on "faith" and you yell "poppycocks" when any research contradicts your perspective 

Would it change your opinion of the validity of this study to know that the authors are gay, that it was not joint research but rather an internet collaboration, or that one of them wrote a book called "The God Gene: How Faith is Hardwired into Our Genes"?

Just curious how suddenly the gay debate has entered into all of the threads here.  What exactly are we debating?

[Misha]

Would it change your opinion of the validity of this study to know that the authors are gay, that it was not joint research but rather an internet collaboration, or that one of them wrote a book called "The God Gene: How Faith is Hardwired into Our Genes"?

No. Research it to be judged on its own on its own merits. Just as long as the results were not falsified and the results are reported honestly, then it does not matter to me who is doing the research.

Just curious how suddenly the gay debate has entered into all of the threads here.  What exactly are we debating?

What are you debating Scott? I am just addressing what I see as the pretty blatant prejudices and bigoted remarks that are being spouted off here. 

[ScottinCrimea]

No. Research it to be judged on its own on its own merits. Just as long as the results were not falsified and the results are reported honestly, then it does not matter to me who is doing the research.

What are you debating Scott? I am just addressing what I see as the pretty blatant prejudices and bigoted remarks that are being spouted off here. 

I agree it should be judged on its own merits, just throwing out some considerations.  The truth is that because there has been no follow up or verifying studies done, we just don't know how valid the results are, for whatever reason.

Who exactly do you see as the blatantly prejudiced ones here?  Please name names.  Am I on your list?  If so, please cite the quotes that suggest this. I will agree that a very few have made such comments, but the vast majority have expressed their differing opinions in a respectful way and do not deserve to be denigrated with such terms as homophobe or bigot.

[Makkin]

Sandro,

  Could you please explain the realities of the "Romans or virtue"?

   I have read that a Roman of this sort was very common and similar to a "blue collar worker". They were into homosexuality and it was considered the "way".


   It seems as if a society makes established norms through leadership and becomes the norm or virtue. Romans of virtue were expected to act is a homosexual manner and it was considered a virtue. Thus the argument of homosexuality being caused by whatever means or causes is fully explained by the Roman history. What say ye dear friend?

Makkin

[brucen36]

Everything is genetic when it comes to humanity.  Anyone who says otherwise simply has not understood yet. 

[mark2353]

Guys and girls,
This thread was posted by Ambach to get certain input from all of us. Perhaps that was done. The topic was worn down as always, but some respect to Ambach this topic should be a new threat. 
Besides there is already another thread on this subject!

 

[mendeleyev]

This thread should be about Vinnvinny's avatars!  I have enjoyed each one as they brought a bit of levity to my day.  However the latest is nice too. She a very lovely lady my friend! 

[Vinnvinny]

Thank you mendeleyev kind sir. You're a gentleman, that's for sure. 

[Misha]

Who exactly do you see as the blatantly prejudiced ones here?  Please name names. 

Well, Scott, I would not say that you are blatantly prejudiced, but clearly tongue in cheek prejudiced  There, I named names, are you happy?

[ScottinCrimea]

Everything is genetic when it comes to humanity.  Anyone who says otherwise simply has not understood yet. 

This implies that we are all slaves to our basic instincts.  I don't believe this.  It also suggests that there is no environmental influence in the actions of man, which I also don't believe.

[ScottinCrimea]

Well, Scott, I would not say that you are blatantly prejudiced, but clearly tongue in cheek prejudiced  There, I named names, are you happy?

Interesting description...I'll accept that.  But "names" is plural.  Care to continue?

[Misha]

Interesting description...I'll accept that.  But "names" is plural.  Care to continue?

Why? Read the posts and see who I disagreed with and why. I just find odd this idea this idea that some men just chose to be gay and somehow decided one fine morning to be gay because of the lifestyle. To paraphrase SeriouslyJaded, I can't say that I chose to be heterosexual, simply was and my erotic fantasies were always about women long before my first sexual experience with a woman. Though the research is still in its infancy, it is certainly convincing enough that there are a biological factors at play that shape sexual attraction before a child is born. The need to believe that homosexuality is chosen, speaks volumes IMHO.   

[BC]

The need to believe that homosexuality is chosen, speaks volumes IMHO.   

Oh well.. might as well..

To think that homosexuality is caused by of any one single factor is false IMHO

Think of components instead.  Sure genetics may have something to do with it but not like a light switch on/off.. just another factor to weigh in.

Making it even more complex, there is a difference between feeling 'within'  that he or she is homosexual and those that may enjoy homosexual acts.

Is funny how many labels there are.. hetersexual,bisexual, metrosexual, homosexual, asexual, pomosexual and probably a host of others.

It's probably a gradient type thing.. from someone who casually fools around with homosexuality to those that really feel within that they are trapped in the wrong body.

There is nothing like a homosexual arm, leg, finger, liver, or heart.. it's all between the ears.

Just do it, whatever and have fun.

[Ade]

There is nothing like a homosexual arm, leg, finger, liver, or heart.. it's all between the ears.

And a lot of what's between the ears is predetermined and fixed.

[Misha]

It's probably a gradient type thing.. from someone who casually fools around with homosexuality to those that really feel within that they are trapped in the wrong body.

Well, gay and lesbians do not usually say that feel that they are trapped in the wrong body, just that they are attracted to people of the same sex. IIRC, those who feel trapped in the "wrong body" call themselves transgendered.

[groovlstk]

Homosexuals are as "normal" as straight people. They are not more or less smart, handsome, talented, honest, etc. To my mind - no big deal at all. There may be some psychological traits as the result of long-term prejudice or persecution - as in any persecuted group, but that's it.

In major cities it's pretty much accepted that as a group gay men are more artistic and have a superior sense of aesthetics. My wife believes this, as she works as a kitchen and bath designer and most men in her field are gay. (I appreciate them, too: they adore my wife yet unlike most other men they don't hit on her  ) I'd guess that a good portion of it is rooted in conformity, however. Long ago when I worked as a book critic one of my magazine's editors was a young gay German dude. He wrote poorly and couldn't tell literature from dreck, yet he persisted. Years later when I got tired of the chump salary I moved into technology and tried to talk my German friend into jumping ship, too; he was brilliant at managing projects and had that instinctive German grasp of engineering. Yet even though he knew he could be making 3x or 4x his salary working in technology, he refused because it wouldn't have the same cache in the gay community as his job in the arts did.

[brucen36]

This implies that we are all slaves to our basic instincts.  I don't believe this.  It also suggests that there is no environmental influence in the actions of man, which I also don't believe.

How do you think environment influences us?  It changes our genetic structure transiently which in turn affects our behavior.  That you have separated "basic instincts" from so called "higher faculties" is simply a subjective human construction and quite arbitrary with no objective meaning.