RW v UW

[OlgaH]

This is based on passport statistics, which is probably quite different to the way the people actually describe them selves.

This is based on General census of the population 2001. But there also were some responses after General census that Ukranian statistic could falsify data and actually there were even more Russians 

 
Заполнение переписной документации осуществляется на основании сообщений, полученных от респондентов без их документального подтверждения.
http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua/rus/law/census/

[Daveman]

not sure if this is relevant or not, but of the three UW that I dated two had at least one Russian parent.

The parents:
Ukrainian mother/ Russian father,
Another was born in Russia to Russian parents, immigrating to Ukraine when she was about 3 years old.

Many of the Ukrainian ladies I've spoken with over the past few years have at least one Russian parent.  I'm sure geography plays a role in this phenomenon (East vs West vs Crimea), but at least on the surface it does seem quite common.

There was so much forced relocation, from what I understand, during the Stalin era that the regional ethnicity of much of the FSU was genetically changed due to the influx. Regardless of whether that is actually true, there does seem to be a very high percentage of Russians (born in the motherland) who currently reside in Ukraine.

[ambach123]

My experiences are quite close to that of Dave and John.

Another thing one must consider is the willingness to immigrate to USA on the part of the ladies. Even though both the girls I knew were equally willing to move forward ASAP, they did not actually took the plunge. Several posters who have gone to St. Petersburg and other parts of Russia, have posted their failure in getting any RW interested in moving to USA, while that may not be an issue with a UW.

One has to weigh this carefully, since a meeting costs thousands of dollars and travel to the other end of the world. If you went to Russia, say you liked a girl and she likes you, but in the final analysis, she either refuses to leave the country, or even worse, she comes here on a K1 and then longs to go home. Such longing would be unlikely for a UW who may be more realistic.

[Misha]

Even though both the girls I knew were equally willing to move forward ASAP, they did not actually took the plunge.

I am confused. From what I understand, you were the one that dumped them  ??? How is it that you are now saying that they did "not actually took the plunge"?

[kievstar]

Not easy for a UW or RW or AnyW(any woman) to leave her family and country and go to USA / Europe for example.  You have to be a special man.  My advice is read about some of the members here who have a good marriage and IMO are decent men - KenC, Turbo, Shadow, Groove, Gator, etc. You have to win the woman's heart.  These women in UW and RW are not desperate. 

Men who think remote areas of Ukraine or Russia are the ticket for them will come home empty handed or divorced in the future.  Its more about the man you are and not the physical location of the woman    Date in your league and things will work out.

I would encourage you to use Mila in Kharkov.  Many girls there and a woman's advice on helping you cannot hurt.  I will tell you, you need to start seeing women in their home cities first. If a girl does not live in same city as her parents, I would see another girl.

When you meet the right woman, you will not think about seeing others.




 

[Chillidog]

If a girl does not live in same city as her parents, I would see another girl.

Interesting, would like to know your thinking on this? can you elaborate a little?

[Faux Pas]

Interesting, would like to know your thinking on this? can you elaborate a little?

I would chalk that up to a personal preference. Many serious women will not want to meet in their city for the first time as well for a multitude of reasons. I think discretion being a popular one.

[ScottinCrimea]

not sure if this is relevant or not, but of the three UW that I dated two had at least one Russian parent.

The parents:
Ukrainian mother/ Russian father,
Another was born in Russia to Russian parents, immigrating to Ukraine when she was about 3 years old.

Many of the Ukrainian ladies I've spoken with over the past few years have at least one Russian parent.  I'm sure geography plays a role in this phenomenon (East vs West vs Crimea), but at least on the surface it does seem quite common.

There was so much forced relocation, from what I understand, during the Stalin era that the regional ethnicity of much of the FSU was genetically changed due to the influx. Regardless of whether that is actually true, there does seem to be a very high percentage of Russians (born in the motherland) who currently reside in Ukraine.

This is why any reasoning about RW vs UW has to be thrown out the window.  For example, my wife was born in Ukraine, but her parents are very much Russian, her mother coming from St Petersburg and her father from Siberia, where his father was stationed as a physician.  She considers herself very much Russian, not Ukrainian, though by birth she is Ukrainian.  So where would she fit in all of these calculations?

[mendeleyev]

Many serious women will not want to meet in their city for the first time as well for a multitude of reasons. I think discretion being a popular one.

I'd respectfully point out that would be a big red flag in my view. An honest lady has not only discussed endlessly with her family and friends the coming arrival of a suitor from the West, but is actively preparing for his introduction to them. Its typically the dishonest ones who wish to keep the courtship away from her daily, local life. Generally her decision making process is "Soviet" (it simply means "committee") and in most cases she will give her family as much access to the person and his information so that they can assist her with a reasoned decision about her choice.

The arrival of a suitor from either "abroad" or even the "near abroad" is a big deal. It's a point of pride and when Russians are proud of something they parade it around. This is a land of monuments, parade grounds, old men wearing their war medals, children wearing school uniforms, army units marching in step on Beautiful Square with MIGS flying overhead, an obsession with fashion and ladies dressing to the "T" and so forth. Russians don't hide something like this, whether it be a guest from another city or a man courting from a Western country.

Most often there is a reason, typically not good for the WM, when a lady wants to keep his arrival under wraps. Spending so much time in the culture, I'd wonder what (or maybe who) she was hiding. That is one reason to be highly skeptical of a lady who allowed a guy to scoot her off to a romantic destination on the first trip. It just goes against the grain of so much of her background and culture. There are exceptions, but they're that--exceptions to what is normative. This is a land of order with a clearly defined pecking order as Russians tend to be very hierarchal, and keeping a suitor away from her "close people" is usually about as acceptable as fingernails digging into a class chalkboard.

[Ade]

I'd respectfully point out that would be a big red flag in my view. An honest lady has not only discussed endlessly with her family and friends the coming arrival of a suitor from the West, but is actively preparing for his introduction to them. Its typically the dishonest ones who wish to keep the courtship away from her daily, local life. Generally her decision making process is "Soviet" (it simply means "committee") and in most cases she will give her family as much access to the person and his information so that they can assist her with a reasoned decision about her choice.

And I respectfully disagree and I'd like to point out that there are several reasons why she would want to meet outside her home town not least of which is keeping a guy, which she's never met, away from friends, family and home until she's determined if he's a nut case or not. Another is that she's afraid of the MOB stigma and what friends and family may think.

Your portrayal of an "honest lady" is limited, silly and extremely narrow minded. 

[mendeleyev]

....and based on common sense with a good backgound of the culture.    I do get to see the process from the opposite side of the ocean on occasion.

That sense of "soviet" is part of which drives her to allow others access to make sure you're not a nut job. As my post indicated there are exceptions, but what I described is much more common.

[Ade]

....and based on common sense with a good backgound of the culture.    I do get to see the process from the opposite side of the ocean on occasion.

That sense of "soviet" is part of which drives her to allow others access to make sure you're not a nut job. As my post indicated there are exceptions, but what I described is much more common.

I'm curious about how much of this "process" you've actually seen from "the opposite side of the ocean" to be so sure of your comments?

From the talks I've had with my fiancée about this subject I'd say that each situation would have to be considered in isolation and trying to draw general conclusions would be just silly according to my common sense.

[Misha]

I'd respectfully point out that would be a big red flag in my view. An honest lady has not only discussed endlessly with her family and friends the coming arrival of a suitor from the West, but is actively preparing for his introduction to them.

This depends on the woman. My wife is honest, but can't stand her family trying to interfere with her life. She would never have consulted her family as to whom she should date. She did not tell them right away that she was dating me. At first she told her mother that she was dating a Misha, then a man who was not from her city, and finally before I was to arrive she broke the news to her mother that I was a foreigner. It was not a question of honest/dishonest, rather my wife's independence from her family.

Nonetheless, I still say that it is not necessary to meet a guy in another city for discretion.

[Gator]

Mendeleyev,

I agree with all of your reasons, having experienced them firsthand.  Another reason is that RW, especially those with strong family values, want to hear the opinions of her family and friends about her suitor. 

I had to meet the mother and Godmother.  They powwowed in private and upon their return,  interaction advanced three positive levels. 

SJ,

I do agree that the first trip does not have to be in her hometown, especially if the correspondence is short and the man is on a WMVM trip.  Nevertheless, if that first trip goes well, it is imperative IMO that the second trip be in her boring hometown.  If not, I would say the woman is not keenly interested in the man.

And it is important for the man to meet the family.  He certainly will be seeing a lot of them if the relationship leads to marriage.  Observing a RW's friends also gives some insight into her nature.

[mendeleyev]

Sj, I understand your questions.

I'll reply first with some questions. Would you agree that one can draw these conclusions: When visiting someone in a communal apartment, isn't it logical to observe which coat rack to place your coat and boots so that you don't use the rack reserved for the neighbor who shares the apartment?

Would you agree it logical that one should remove shoes immediately upon entry? Do you think it a logical conclusion to expect as if by magic a bottle of vodka to appear when pickled herring is served?

Can you draw a logical conclusion that when you pass by an ancient church and suggest you take a peek inside, the lady will whip a head scarf out of her bag before entering, or if she is wearing shorts or a short skirt she might decline to enter? We make logical conclusions based on local culture all the time.

As an AM I'm asked frequently about AM. The question may come from a babushka whose daughter is writing someone in the USA or it could come from an associate of my wife whose typical response is to smile and say "he's right there--ask him."

In my work often I'm hear that "so and so" is writing a man from Amsterdam/Orlando/London/Detroit and what do you make of this? One learns to turn the question around to "what do you think of it?" then sit back and take notes. There's usually a reason for the question which revolves around the "why" of something.

I remember being shocked the first time at a dinner table, questions began to come my way regarding rank, salary, status, benefits, etc. These weren't all family members, yet a non answer would indicate hiding something. The very passing around of my health insurance card spurred the conversation for more than an hour. A cousin even photographed it as a souviner! After all the battery of questions it was discovered that the card gave me access to the American clinic/hospital in Moscow. Status! Questions over--it was different, but my card gave me something they could only dream about. Status is key to credibility in Russia. That's a cultural similarity, but expressed very differently from West to East.

[Diplomacy]

I got serious status with my son.  He asked what I did for work, and took him to the electronics store.  I showed him the poster in the window, with my old company.  Then we went into the store and a salesman showed him the product.

I had her explain that I was the chief for the East Coast for this company, now I was with a new company trying to beat them in the market place.

When we got back to the flat.  He told me "You are a very important business man.  The police would not dare force you to pay a bribe."

Got to tell you, not what I ever would have imagined coming out of a 7 yo mouth.  It was a classic though, and even in a 7 yo mind status is important.

The Ukrainians are proud people, and want their daughter to be married to someone to be proud of.  It is the same with any parent, they want the best for their child.

The whole time looking back, and observing.  There was a genuine interest in who I was, and almost no questions about America. 

Mend is correct in what he says.  I would not though, worry a whole bunch on a first visit and not meeting family or friends.  Even in the first trip though, you are talking about being there for a couple of weeks usually. 

It just seems to me, at some point you should meet a friend or something.  I would keep it in the back of my head, but proceed.  I would be watching how she interacts with people, walks through the crowd, talks to taxi drivers, waiters, shops, and mess of other things.

SJ

I think we have all seen enough of the WM running around the FSU.  I would think twice about bringing a WM home to meet Mama.  The issue is though, there is not a western thought process here.  There is a MOB stigma, but family and friends share a lot of information.

[Misha]

I think we have all seen enough of the WM running around the FSU.  I would think twice about bringing a WM home to meet Mama.  The issue is though, there is not a western thought process here.  There is a MOB stigma, but family and friends share a lot of information.

This is not solely a MOB thing. Many women in Russia date. They, like their Western sisters, will meet men for a first date to check him out. This usually involves going out for a coffee or supper. If she does not like him, she will simply not go out with him on a second date. At that point, she will then wait for another man for another date. Do you really think that a Russian woman who is actively dating will bring home each and every man she happens to go out on a date with?  Of course she won't. She will wait until she is certain that he might be the one before she bring him home to meet mom and/or dad.

Mendy's description of dating in Russia applies to some women (very conservative, very religious, etc....) It does not apply to all Russian women based on my experience.

[mendeleyev]

Misha, I agree about local dating.

In long correspondence situations I agree that she will first wish to meet for coffee or supper the first day to make sure he's not totally weird in person.

True that the further you get from Moscow or Leningrad the chances are greater that a lady will be part of a more conservative/traditional family structure.

But when a man is flying in from Toronto or Dallas to Moscow, or even mid size cities like Novokuznetsk (1/2 million) or Yekaterinburg (1 million), the arrival of a suitor from abroad is an "event" if the two have been corresponding. And generally the family will have prepared for this event.

In any styled family, when visitors come calling from far away, out comes the fatted calf and the best china in most instances. If they haven't corresponded or he is simply part of a tour which happened to land it town then she' going to be much more cautious.

You're so right about not going out with him on a second date. We have a friend who was writing a guy for almost a year and when he arrived it didn't take even 24 hours for her to know this was not her "dream man" (her words). I felt badly for both because the next several days she had to help him toward self sufficiency, playing the role of gracious hostess/guide until he could put a plan B together. Some ladies would have just disappeared into the woodwork but she felt at least a minimum sense of responsibility. Once she'd made up her mind, their chances for romance were over.

[Faux Pas]

Misha, I agree about local dating.

In long correspondence situations I agree that she will first wish to meet for coffee or supper the first day to make sure he's not totally weird in person.

True that the further you get from Moscow or Leningrad the chances are greater that a lady will be part of a more conservative/traditional family structure.

But when a man is flying in from Toronto or Dallas to Moscow, or even mid size cities like Novokuznetsk (1/2 million) or Yekaterinburg (1 million), the arrival of a suitor from abroad is an "event" if the two have been corresponding. And generally the family will have prepared for this event.

In any styled family, when visitors come calling from far away, out comes the fatted calf and the best china in most instances. If they haven't corresponded or he is simply part of a tour which happened to land it town then she' going to be much more cautious.

You're so right about not going out with him on a second date. We have a friend who was writing a guy for almost a year and when he arrived it didn't take even 24 hours for her to know this was not her "dream man" (her words). I felt badly for both because the next several days she had to help him toward self sufficiency, playing the role of gracious hostess/guide until he could put a plan B together. Some ladies would have just disappeared into the woodwork but she felt at least a minimum sense of responsibility. Once she'd made up her mind, their chances for romance were over.

Mend,

I have to admit I am an avid reader of your blog and through all of my forum time and net research, I have found you and your wisdom to be the most credible but, like Misha I am going to have to take exception with your advice on first meeting. Please let me explain why; I was willing and anxious to go to her Siberian city for our first meeting. We discussed it at length. Eventually, she suggested St Pete or Moscow. She personally looked at the only two apartments available that I had found on the net.

I wasn't opposed to the idea as it really didn't matter to me but, she had a list of reasons why we should and they were valid reasons that made sense. One of which was the apartments. The idea of a women seeking a vacation entered my mind but was never voiced. I knew that certainly didn't fit the character of her as far as I knew her, which was very limited. Worse case scenario she wanted a vacation, best case she was looking out for me.

I never offered to pay her way or expenses and she never asked. I did ask her at one point if she could afford such a trip. She, in her subtle way acted a bit offended at my question (my interpretation), thanked me for asking but stated that no, she would be fine. I didn't know at the time how much her salary was and didn't ask. But, I know now, that trip for her equated to about 4 months salary, just for travel.

Her family and friends (as you state) were all aware of me. She had questions from them. Needless to say the trip was a wonderful success. I have made several more trips all to her hometown and her family and friends are all very accepting of me. In fact I love them all very much and thoroughly enjoy them. My first trip to her city she really went overboard as she was convinced I didn't/wouldn't enjoy it. I honestly believe that is why she didn't want to meet there first or that if it didn't work out, I wouldn't be stuck there. She has told me as much and most of her family and friends cannot believe I actually like Tomsk. I am not blinded by her affection. I truly believe meeting in St Pete was a selfless act on her part.

BTW, I will be in Moscow later this month if you have some time, it would be my pleasure to buy you a piva.

[Misha]

True that the further you get from Moscow or Leningrad the chances are greater that a lady will be part of a more conservative/traditional family structure.

Why? This is not always the case. I don't see why a woman in Vladivostok would be any more conservative than a woman in Moscow.

But when a man is flying in from Toronto or Dallas to Moscow, or even mid size cities like Novokuznetsk (1/2 million) or Yekaterinburg (1 million), the arrival of a suitor from abroad is an "event" if the two have been corresponding. And generally the family will have prepared for this event.

In some cases, sure, but it will still depend on the woman.

[mendeleyev]

Her family and friends (as you state) were all aware of me. She had questions from them. Needless to say the trip was a wonderful success. I have made several more trips all to her hometown and her family and friends are all very accepting of me. In fact I love them all very much and thoroughly enjoy them. My first trip to her city she really went overboard as she was convinced I didn't/wouldn't enjoy it. I honestly believe that is why she didn't want to meet there first or that if it didn't work out, I wouldn't be stuck there. She has told me as much and most of her family and friends cannot believe I actually like Tomsk. I am not blinded by her affection. I truly believe meeting in St Pete was a selfless act on her part.

Faux, that sounds like a wonderful time and a gracious spirit on her part. I'm glad you two enjoyed such a successful trip. That was her call, rather than you insisting on whisking her off to some Greek isle. I believe that to be very different. She was right about the travel as some would not discover the same vast beauty and enjoyment as you have in the journey to Tomsk.



Misha, we respect each other a great deal so I don't wish for others to think that we have fallen into a heated argument. As one travels east from European Russia and begins to enter the southern border area influenced by the "Stans" and China that even in Russian cities, the cultural styling has begun to change. Or in the Caucasus the lifestyle takes on influences from the Ossetian, Georgian, and Chechen cultures. One can check down the list in mid to Eastern Siberia: Tatar, Dolgan, Turkic, etc and each contributes new flavours to the way Russian citizens live and think. You have spent lots of time in Russia in various places and I'm not giving you new information.

As to Vladivostok, access to the West via the Pacific makes Vladivostok as St P, another "window" to the world. Its much more modern than cities it's size in the heart of Siberia.

As an example of gradual changes across regions: consider the Muslim Bashkir influence around Ufa or further east in Novosibirsk (both well over a million population), with Islam the dominate religion in those regions, making Russia's 11th and 3th largest respectively, somewhat different culturally from Euro Russia...but there remains an underlying Russian culture too. Naturally few WM will ever make it up to Yakutsk so I'm not suggesting that drastic of a change, but even in Kazan where WM sometimes travel the changes are noticable.

The fact that Moscow residents complain about сумчатые underscores the ebb and flow of ethnic and cultural lines across Russia. Perhaps I've read it wrong, but I believe that life in general becomes more culturally conservative especially from European to Asian Russia.

[Misha]

Misha, we respect each other a great deal so I don't wish for others to think that we have fallen into a heated argument. As one travels east from European Russia and begins to enter the southern border area influenced by the "Stans" and China that even in Russian cities, the cultural styling has begun to change.

Well, this is not due to distance. I have been to both Perm and Ekaterinburg. Both are quite distant from Moscow, yet they are neither more conservative nor less modern than Moscow and St. Petersburg. I have my doubts as to whether Irkutsk and Novosibirsk would also be less modern than the capital.

Or in the Caucasus the lifestyle takes on influences from the Ossetian, Georgian, and Chechen cultures.

Here, of course, the important factor is not distance but rather cultural and religious.

As to Vladivostok, access to the West via the Pacific makes Vladivostok as St P, another "window" to the world. Its much more modern than cities it's size in the heart of Siberia.

Why do you consider the cities in the "heart of Siberia" less modern? Why would a city such as Omsk or Novosibirsk, cities where you would find a Russian majority, be any less modern than St. Petersburg or Moscow? True, the may have had a bit less money than Moscow, but by extrapolating my experiences in Perm and Ekaterinburg, I would not expect there to be any major differences in outlook or mentality.

As an example of gradual changes across regions: consider the Muslim Bashkir influence

Again, the differences you cite are mainly due to religious/cultural factors. Provide me examples of Siberian cities where Russians are in the majority and how they differ from cities in central Moscow where the majority is Russian.

Naturally few WM will ever make it up to Yakutsk so I'm not suggesting that drastic of a change, but even in Kazan where WM sometimes travel the changes are noticable.

Again, Kazan is the capital of the Tatarstan (Muslim population) so the differences are still religious/cultural. I have been to Yakutsk. The ethnic Russian population there was not different from the Russian population in Moscow.

The fact that Moscow residents complain about сумчатые underscores the ebb and flow of ethnic and cultural lines across Russia. Perhaps I've read it wrong, but I believe that life in general becomes more culturally conservative especially from European to Asian Russia.

People complaining does not necessarily mean that they are correct.

[Marc@LTP]

words to live by

Posted by Ambach123
From my experience, finding a loving and sexy beautiful woman is not a problem in either of the places; finding the right one, that is something else.

I did not read the whole post, but my 2 cents find the RW's then find the city your going to. Then make sheer 100% you work with a good service by asking the RWD what they know about the service.

Have a city with many girls you like put the power of numbers on your side the more RW you meet the better you will do!!

[greysuit]

This is an interesting thread 

In my conversations with both RW and UW I have definitely noticed differences. Maybe it is just particular personalities but RW seem more serious(about almost everything) than UW. I have also noted, like Daveman, RW hostility toward UW.  I think some of it is rooted in politics, some in generational bickering. Maybe it is analogous to Northern and Southern women here in the states. Yes, they are American but, for some, there are lingering regional resentments.