Statistical abberation

[Wayne]

Ken,

I am very sorry to hear about all your troubles.  I always enjoyed reading your posts.

Most older men would probably not want to have children, especially if they had children who are now adults.  However, I like children very much and it would not be a problem for me to have another child.  My "wife" told me before I met her in person that she had a medical condition and could not have more children.  Perhaps it would have worked out better, in my case, if I had chosen a woman who wanted to have a child?

Anyway, Ken, I hope your health improves and your business gets going.  I work for a mechanical contractor and I am lucky to still be working.  There is very little new construction now.

Good luck!

[facetrock]

  Well Ken hindsight is always better but always late. I will speculate if you dont mind. I think children are the biggest issue. Your health took a turn for the worst and suddenly you became mortal and it scared her. She started to realize she would outlive you by decades. If she stayed with you until she was no longer able to have children, who would she have after your death? She would not have the living reminders of the man she loved. There would be no grandchildren, no birthday partys, no chirstmas with her children. She would be alone and would most likely die alone. Its a scary thought for any man or woman.

 I do not believe it was financial. Might have caused a few problems but I dont think it was the deal breaker.

[vwrw]

  She would not have the living reminders of the man she loved.

What is the  living reminders of the beloved man she may obtain by getting divorced with him? 

If she stayed with you until she was no longer able to have children, who would she have after your death? There would be no grandchildren, no birthday partys, no chirstmas with her children. She would be alone and would most likely die alone. Its a scary thought for any man or woman.

She may adopt a baby from Russia. It is not that difficult there.
Turbo and I decided that if my motherhood instinct ever awakes, we would adopt a child.
Ken, have you discussed adoption as a way out of your situation? 

[mark2353]

Ken,
First let me say I really sorry to hear of your situation. Sounds like the health is on the recovery mode and soon enough the financial. The dissolution of marriage to Lena is a truly sad story.  You have my deepest sympathy.
Before I even suggest this I would like to say that only you two have all the facts and can make a clear evaluation.
 

Do I regret not have a kid with Lena,  Yes.  With perfect 20/20 hindsite, having a child would have helped her in many ways, but it was never an issue until recently.
KenC

From all the things that you have posted so far. I would say that you might have a chance to have a very high level discussion with this lady. Sometimes it when we are together we put off and not see the whole picture because of health, business...
Once we are out and some of the tension goes away we can think what should or could..
It might be worth it? She sounds like fantastic lady and I would sit down like you did in Russia 10+ yrs ago and put all your cards in the table. (nothing to loose only a little pride?)
you have my best wishes, Mark

[Blues Fairy]

Ken, have you discussed adoption as a way out of your situation? 

Nothing compares to the experience of having your own child.  For me, adoption would have been an act of desperation.

Besides, being a 70+ y/o father of a college-age kid is tough regardless of whether the kid is natural or adopted.  How is adoption a solution to this kind of problem?

[Makkin]

  My best friend was with his lady for 13 years and they did not want children for all those years. At age 32 or 33 she had the strong desire to have children and my friend and his lady parted ways on friendly terms. She went on to have a child through a quick marriage that lasted all of 18 months. She again found another man and had another child.
  My friend stayed by her side through all this weirdness and turned out to be the best father in the world..lol. Since he had himself fixed many years ago he did not want children but now he is the happy father.
  The lady is a professional and makes 100,000 plus in wages and my friend does nice but not that nice. In the end the journey of both people who both did not want children are very happy and back together.
   Life has a way of making things happen and if friendship and love has anything to do with it then things find a way.

Makkin

[vwrw]

For me, adoption would have been an act of desperation.

For you, adoption is an act of desperation. For me, adoption is an irresistibly attractive way to avoid all the unpleasant things connected with a child bearing and delivering.

Besides, being a 70+ y/o father of a college-age kid is tough regardless of whether the kid is natural or adopted.  How is adoption a solution to this kind of problem?

Being a father of an adolescent is tough regardless of the father’s age. Should people have no children because of that fact?

[Blues Fairy]

Being a father of an adolescent is tough regardless of the father’s age. Should people have no children because of that fact?

You think running after a toddler is of the same difficulty for 30-year olds and 55-year-olds? 
Or paying for a college is the same for 50-year-olds who are in their working prime and 70-year-olds who are ready to retire?

[pitbull]

For you, adoption is an act of desperation. For me, adoption is an irresistibly attractive way to avoid all the unpleasant things connected with a child bearing and delivering.

If your primary reason for adoption vs. your own child is to avoid the child bearing and delivery, then the "surrogate mother" option would be ideal. You get your own biological child, avoid "unpleasant things", and it will probably cost less than the adoption process.  

[mark2353]

You think running after a toddler is of the same difficulty for 30-year olds and 55-year-olds? 
Or paying for a college is the same for 50-year-olds who are in their working prime and 70-year-olds who are ready to retire?

BF ,
We had our daughter when we were 45 yrs old. Now I am 55 yrs and she is very active. Since my former wife is rather low energy I have 90% of the weekends with her (no complains!) but it really takes lots Patience.
The benefits is that my daughter has a fantastic vocabulary (we never talked down) and is always at the top of her class.  I have a great ski and tennis partner. 
Her cute comment is that Dad is better than her other friends since he has money and a car!

[groovlstk]

Guys who are still in the search phase should also be wary of the flip side to this situation. We have several RW friends who are married to husbands they don't love and the women, both in their late 20s, refuse to have a child with fathers they don't have feelings for (or maybe they don't anticipate staying married in the long term).

[Misha]

We have several RW friends who are married to husbands they don't love and the women

How long left before they get their Green Cards?

[Gator]

Speaking as a man who could never do this, I would consider conceiving a baby and feeling it grow in my womb would be the greatest miracle.

Raising a baby has plenty moments of joy mixed in with a lot of work.  It's well worth it, although one will question it twice:  when the child is two and a teenager.  Nevertheless, the sense of family that a baby brings to two parents in love can not be duplicated in any other way.

Adoption has brought happiness to those who could not conceive.  Three factors regarding the adoption of Russian kids:  
-  It is expensive ($40k).
-  Russia does not allow babies in excellent health to be adopted by foreigners (would an AM-RW couple be able to adopt a healthy baby?).  
-  If two parents are intelligent, why risk the unknown DNA pool with adoption?

[mark2353]

-  If two parents are intelligent, why risk the unknown DNA pool with adoption?

Totally agree, I have a very dear friend who adopted a lovely baby. 30 yrs later she does not know if she wants to throw her to the lions. The girl is a copy of her real family all sort of problems. My friend very well off could have sent her to the finest university all she had to do was ask. Well instead was in all sort of problems, like her real brothers and sisters later we learned many years later. Somethings are not learned from the foster parents they are brought in.

[Chicagoguy]

I think this is the best discussion we have had on this board !

[Mishenka]

Gator you make a good point, I also agree. I have adopted twin girls 5 years into my first marriage, we were very happy but it wasn't without difficulties. They are now 26 and make papa proud.

Ken I wish you and Lena the best. You have survived this far, you will be fine.

Speaking of statistics, here is an important one, and my question; do RW understand life expectancy of men in Russia and transfer that information to AM? For example, read here http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/7023-14.cfm

Russian Life Expectancy on Downward Trend
By Irina Titova
STAFF WRITER

Just last month, unemployed engineer Nikolai Medvedyev, 52, buried his cousin Alexander, who died of a heart attack at the age of 59. The funeral was the second Medvedyev attended for a male relative this year as another cousin, only 45 years old, also died from heart disease in August.

Medvedyev's terrible year is an all to common story in Russia, where a variety of factors combine to create life expectancy numbers well below Western levels, particularly for men.

According to the most recent data compiled by the State Statistics Committee, the average life expectancy for Russian men is less than 59 years - 58 years and 11 months - while that for Russian women is 72 years. The combined figure is 65 years and three months.

By comparison, the average life span for men in the United States is 73 years and for women 79 years. Male life expectancy in France and Germany is 74 years, while for women it is 82 and 80 years respectively.

You can read on at the link provided.

Now with this in mind I wonder, while American men live longer, is it  engraved in RW minds that once a man reaches the ages of 59 or so, they are past their usefulness "use by date"?  What do you ladies think?  

Galina is 4 years younger than I am. While she looks very young for her age she made the comment to me that I don't look the age of a typical RM of 54. She thinks at least 10 years younger, both in looks and health, vitality etc. I seem to have much more energy than she does, so I think I'm safe. I noticed RW tend to sleep a lot. Maybe this is the key to their youthful looks and beauty? Galina still has the body of a teenager, probably has never been a pound overweight in her life, even during pregnancy.

I wonder if RW who marry older men have the same way of thinking as the author of this article writes?  If a woman is in her 30's and her man is late 50's she might be thinking, she only has a little useful time left for a happy marriage. Regardless if she wants children or not, she wouldn't like to entertain thoughts of being alone in the future.  

I also spent an extended stay in the hospital last year, it really does shake people up and makes you take inventory of your life.

Mishenka

[Globetrotter]

Ken, you a nice guy.  We go back 8 or so years to the PL days.  I appreciated our phone conversations and PM's between us.  I respected your decision, and always wished you well.  You are a smart guy...ya know, someone who can make a deal on the street...as opposed to just being educated, which are 2 very different things.

Never having met you in person, I still consider you a source and a pal.  If you ever need some help or support, you are welcome here in the Chicago area as my guest.  Old "car guy expression"  Keep the Shiny Side Up.

John     

[groovlstk]

How long left before they get their Green Cards?

One has been married to an AM for four years, I believe she's naturalized; the other is married to a RM who has contract work here, so she's not looking for a GC.

[OlgaH]

-  Russia does not allow babies in excellent health to be adopted by foreigners (would an AM-RW couple be able to adopt a healthy baby?).  
-  If two parents are intelligent, why risk the unknown DNA pool with adoption?

Children Available for Adoption from Russia
http://www.internationaladoptionhelp.com/international_adoption/international_adoption_russia_childen.htm

Talking about an excellent health
http://www.ewg.org/kidsafe/reasons

and when people plan to have their own children, they also should take into consideration their own age irrespective of their intelligence.
Dad's Age Raises Down Syndrome Risk, Too
http://www.webmd.com/infertility-and-reproduction/news/20030701/dad-age-down-syndrome

[Globetrotter]

For Gator......

Well, as far as adoption, here's scenario for you:  I was dating a doctor, about 12 years younger than me, and we had met many, many times, at her place, London, and for a month at my place in the Chicago area, as I helped her get a visa for a medical conference in town.  She had gotten an abortion in her 20' while in school and always regretted it, and she wanted a kid, even though her biological clock had ticked to a close.  Having known many doctors in the IVF business over 10 years, I explained to her that just because she had a  period regularly did not mean she was fertile.  I said that fertile eggs were like a tennis ball, and the "hairs" on them (like a tennis ball) acted like a spider web to attract sperm cells.  As a girl gets older, the "tennis ball becomes a bald cue ball" with no "spider web" to attract sperm.  Also, the age of the eggs affect probability as well as health of a newborn.  Anyway, she was impressed by my accidental knowledge of the subject.  As we had known each other for over 1.5 years, I said why not adopt a kid from Beslan (where so many people had been killed just a month before, and that there would be many kids without parents.)  So....she could adopt any kid she wanted, get her in her passport, and then come here as a family.  So, if one really wanted a kid with a RW who really wanted one and wasen't afraid to bring it up, it could be done.  She was amazed at the proposal and the concept, but I think found a (hopefully) nice Russian guy.  By the way, I'm 58, one of 6 kids, but never had any of my own, but adore them and was not  scared of them, or to raise them, and richer than Ambach (which only makes me comfortable, but doesn't define me). 

Anyway, that is a possibility for someone my age, or any other age who wants kids with a girl who also wants them but can't have them.



     

[Sculpto]

this might be a bit off base.. but..

I have a client who is well into his 80s now.  I was doing a lot of work in his house in the 90s.. anyway.. he had himself a gorgeous trophy wife and two beautiful daughters with her... she was younger than his children from first marriage..

he was also exceptionally wealthy and in great health.. probably live to 120...

[Misha]

this might be a bit off base.. but..

Sculpto, I am confused. What was your point?

[Vaughn]

As an adoptive father of two grown daughters, and a stepdad of another, I've digested some
golden nuggets here - and to be fair, some poppycock, too. First of all, the very notion of
adoption as a vehicle to salvage what was a great marriage is ill-advised. It's a noble gesture
to come up with such an idea, but the reality is that both parties should be in complete accord
for the husband-wife-father-mother-child dynamic to function well. My gut feeling is that KenC
and his Elena didn't just throw the deck of cards in the air with suddenness - it's likely that a
plethora of possible solutions were considered seriously throughout their troubled time. It would
be satisfying to me personally if KenC could comment on this sub-topic of adoption and its
significance, if any, to his and Elena's relationship and marriage.
 

Having worked and networked with adoptees (adult and adolescent), adoptive parents,
birth mothers and birth fathers since the mid-80's, my opinion comes not from emotion,
but experience and personal knowledge of countless real-life situations. A new and separate
thread would have its own merits without doubt.

Vaughn

[Daveman]

Excellent points, Vaughn.  Having a child or adopting one will absolutely not save a faltering relationship and the ramifications can be huge.

KenC,
I simply cannot believe for a minute that problems with your business, i.e., money had anything to do with this current situation unless there were some worry based arguments/behavior. You did mention something a little similar during the apex of your health scare..

I mean, After 10 years, and the kind of relationship you have described with her, her character, etc., I would have to say that money problems would have to be reason 843 on the list.   The change in her mentality over children I can understand, and being a little freaked over "behavior" manifesting from the health problem, yeah... but the way you have portrayed her here in the past-- I just cannot imagine her wanting to jump ship over money problems (meaning a change in how much she has to spend, what she can have, etc etc.)  Going only by what you have written in the past, I would say that any money problem was/is an absolute non issue for Lena.  The biological need to be a mother makes much more sense.

[Sculpto]

Sculpto, I am confused. What was your point?

guys can have kids late in life if the circumstances permit..