Statistical abberation

[2tallbill]

Ken, I am really sorry to hear about this.

I am at a loss for words, I tried to think of something helpful
or profound to say and have typed and erased various things a
dozen times.
 
I pray for your success and good health.

Take care,


Bill

[Wienerin]

Speaking as a man who could never do this, I would consider conceiving a baby and feeling it grow in my womb would be the greatest miracle.

Raising a baby has plenty moments of joy mixed in with a lot of work.  It's well worth it, although one will question it twice:  when the child is two and a teenager.  Nevertheless, the sense of family that a baby brings to two parents in love can not be duplicated in any other way.

Adoption has brought happiness to those who could not conceive.  Three factors regarding the adoption of Russian kids:  
-  It is expensive ($40k).
-  Russia does not allow babies in excellent health to be adopted by foreigners (would an AM-RW couple be able to adopt a healthy baby?).  
-  If two parents are intelligent, why risk the unknown DNA pool with adoption?

A bit dogmatic, aren't you? I was not happy carrying my kids, being unwell and heavy for 9 mos isn't a thrill it's romantically acclaimed to be.

Giving birth is something else even in in Russian clinic 40+ years ago. It is a work, you cannot get out of it, it has to be done, you can learn how to do it, it has an end, and that's it. Nature has been kind in that even not the easiest delivery (and I didn't have it easy both times) is quickly forgotten. Otherwise no one would venture to have a second kid - naturally, that is, without anaesthesia and C-section.

I'm an unnatural Mother, maybe, but I also didn't find any thrill in my sons when they were babies or even toddlers. All the diapers, breastfeeding, noise, no sleep, sickness, etc. - no, I began to really appereciate them when we could talk properly together. That is not earlier than 3-4 y.o. The older the better.

To this day there are no people more beloved or closer to me than them. How could it be otherwise, when you give all of yourself - with your views, beliefs, your books and music, your appreciation of art, your favourite subjects and interests - until it reflects and multiplies so wonderfully in another person!

But before we could start this "cultural exchange" I did what I should have been doing - but rather as a good nanny than this mystic figure - a Mother. To my mind there is something unnatural for an educated person, with developed mind and plenty of interests, including some attempts at creativity, - to drool over this human chrysalis and it's manifestations (mostly unpleasant).

And I was young and full of energy - 20 and 25. I don't know how people can deal with babies and toddlers after 35. I really don't. And it seems to me that this isn't relly fair - to bring a child into the world when you have reasonable expectations to be old - when the child is still a teenager.  

BTW - I don't remember any "horrible 2" or anything awful when they were 13-16... But I can take a lot in my stride, and it's really very hard to quarrel with me

[jj]

KenC- It is never easy to see anyone on this board separate from each other, especially the two of you. But dispite the hurt that can go with it,  at least it sounds like you are both compromising to see each other thru it.  I wish you good health, and keep looking up and moving forward. -jj

[Gator]

And I was young and full of energy - 20 and 25. I don't know how people can deal with babies and toddlers after 35.

For sure the younger the better from a physical sense.  Yet, I wonder how you would feel if you had another 10-15 years of growth and development (i. e., maturity) and had already accomplished something professionally. 

RW tend to have babies at a very young age, explaining the expression, "A Russian woman's baby is her last doll."  The children of most of the 40+ yo RW I dated had already left the nest.  In contrast, many, many AW are having babies at an advanced age.  My Moscow wife is the youngest mother at social gatherings for her children's schools, with some mothers older by 15 or more years.  These older AW mothers seem very happy with their decision.  My ex-wife certainly was and still is.

A bit dogmatic, aren't you? I was not happy carrying my kids, being unwell and heavy for 9 mos isn't a thrill it's romantically acclaimed to be....I'm an unnatural Mother, maybe, but I also didn't find any thrill in my sons when they were babies or even toddlers. All the diapers, breastfeeding, noise, no sleep, sickness, etc. - no, I began to really appereciate them when we could talk properly together.  That is not earlier than 3-4 y.o. The older the better.

Point taken, and I did say "Speaking as a man" and all that implies.  Also, the mother of my sons was polar opposite to you, even after the distress and pain of a 23-hour delivery.  So you can say that I am ignorant and biased, but the term dogmatic confuses me.

The important point is that we are all different.  The decision to bring a baby to the world is not to be taken lightly.  Having a baby is a strong biological imperative, yet is not always heeded.  I met a few RW in their late 30s and early 40s who did not have children and were adamant not to have one even though they were still fertile.  None expressed regret about their decision.

[Blues Fairy]

To my mind there is something unnatural for an educated person, with developed mind and plenty of interests, including some attempts at creativity, - to drool over this human chrysalis and it's manifestations (mostly unpleasant).

And I was young and full of energy - 20 and 25.

When I was 20 and 25, babies' "manifestations" seemed unpleasant, too.   Not so now.  And I don't think I have lost any of my education, developed mind or interests over these years.  Rather, I must have added something that helps me find immense pleasure in the most mundane aspects of motherhood.  Maturity, perhaps?

[Simoni]

...I must have added something that helps me find immense pleasure in the most mundane aspects of motherhood. 

My wife agrees with you completely, BF.  Our 3 week old is such a delight and joy to her; and of course to proud papa, too :-)

Off topic?  No, I think the point is that children between RW and AM greatly enhance the marriage and family.

[Mir]

I can't understand how adoption is of any relevance to this situation.

Ken's wife wants a child (preferably to one she has given birth)

Ken does not want a child (with his DNA or adopted)

[KenC]

I can't understand how adoption is of any relevance to this situation.

Ken's wife wants a child (preferably to one she has given birth)

Ken does not want a child (with his DNA or adopted)

Mir,
Actually this information is relevant.  If I wrote something to give you the idea that all options would or could not be explored, I apologize.  I actually think that adoption would be a good option as you can adopt an older child.  Lena and I were in contact with the American parents of a 10 year old boy that came from Tver as a favor to his Grandfather back home.  I also know that Marc from LTP was very involved with an orphanage in Tver.
KenC
edit: If you want to watch a tear jerker, try the Russian movie called "The Itallian" about a Russian orphan.

[topofthekey]

I've been debating whether I wanted to post in this thread or not. I hate being negative in a situation like this at all. First I'm sorry the relationship didn't work out and do hope KenC can get to 100% health.

Ken wrote a great trip report as well as the guy who went to Vladivostock. I enjoyed both of those trip reports a lot. So KenC's report and experience certainly has influenced and helped out a lot of people over the years.

From what I read their divorce is not finalized yet. I'll be interested to hear how that works out. If it unfortunately happens I'll be extremely interested to find out if KenC goes back to Russia, maybe heads off to asia (or somewhere else), or just stays single. Either way I wish him the best.

I'm not an anti age gap person just like I'm not a person who takes people seriously when they say all guys under 30 shouldn't get married. So it is hard for me to come out against an age gap. But I do think an age gap and couples getting married very young do have some risk factors. I think KenC would agree with that.

The one thing we are missing is Lena's thoughts but it is nice to hear of a couple on good terms that is probably calling it quits. They even used the same lawyer. A bright spot in some very bad news.

[Vaughn]

I'm not an anti age gap person just like I'm not a person who takes people seriously when they say all guys under 30 shouldn't get married. So it is hard for me to come out against an age gap. But I do think an age gap and couples getting married very young do have some risk factors. I think KenC would agree with that.

I agree with that statement, too, Top - and I hope I haven't come off elsewhere as a man who advises against
marriage before 30. In those situations I advise (and sometimes scream) Patience! Only trying to help just one
good young man out there somewhere avoid a hasty engagement/marriage like my first one.

The amicable divorce - yeah, that's optimum. And rare in number when there are custody issues involved. I'm happy
to see KenC appeared upthread today. Their particular case really strikes home with me.

[Mir]

said that fertile eggs were like a tennis ball, and the "hairs" on them (like a tennis ball) acted like a spider web to attract sperm cells.  As a girl gets older, the "tennis ball becomes a bald cue ball" with no "spider web" to attract sperm

Does not sound right to me. The fact is that the egg produced during an ovulatory cycle is the only game in town. It does not need to attract a sperm. The sperms can go for it or get stuffed as there is no competition.
Perhaps the spider web is needed to entrap and nurture the sperm/early embryo, at the same time the number of ovulatory cycles vs ones where no ovulation takes place get less as the woman grows older. So there is a decline in fertility.

[KenC]

As an adoptive father of two grown daughters, and a stepdad of another, I've digested some
golden nuggets here - and to be fair, some poppycock, too. First of all, the very notion of
adoption as a vehicle to salvage what was a great marriage is ill-advised. It's a noble gesture
to come up with such an idea, but the reality is that both parties should be in complete accord
for the husband-wife-father-mother-child dynamic to function well. My gut feeling is that KenC
and his Elena didn't just throw the deck of cards in the air with suddenness - it's likely that a
plethora of possible solutions were considered seriously throughout their troubled time. It would
be satisfying to me personally if KenC could comment on this sub-topic of adoption and its
significance, if any, to his and Elena's relationship and marriage.
 

Having worked and networked with adoptees (adult and adolescent), adoptive parents,
birth mothers and birth fathers since the mid-80's, my opinion comes not from emotion,
but experience and personal knowledge of countless real-life situations. A new and separate
thread would have its own merits without doubt.

Vaughn

And from     Daveman

Excellent points, Vaughn.  Having a child or adopting one will absolutely not save a faltering relationship and the ramifications can be huge.

KenC,
I simply cannot believe for a minute that problems with your business, i.e., money had anything to do with this current situation unless there were some worry based arguments/behavior. You did mention something a little similar during the apex of your health scare..

I mean, After 10 years, and the kind of relationship you have described with her, her character, etc., I would have to say that money problems would have to be reason 843 on the list.   The change in her mentality over children I can understand, and being a little freaked over "behavior" manifesting from the health problem, yeah... but the way you have portrayed her here in the past-- I just cannot imagine her wanting to jump ship over money problems (meaning a change in how much she has to spend, what she can have, etc etc.)  Going only by what you have written in the past, I would say that any money problem was/is an absolute non issue for Lena.  The biological need to be a mother makes much more sense.

Guys,
It wasn't any one thing more than another.  It was a combination of factors that made the future look bleak for her.  My health issues involved were not the current crisis that caused my emergency hospitalization, but the underlying cause that made me severely anemic and lethargic over the last few years.  The uncertain financial future added stress to the relationship.  And then on top pf the pile was the disappointment of never having children completed the dismal picture for her.  There were things that I was not happy with too, but being older and wiser, I was able to understand that you don;t always get everything you want.

Vaughn, unfortunately you are wrong when you said "plethora of possible solutions were considered."  The topic of children was never really fully discussed.  For a long time I hung my hat on Lena's premarital postion of never wanting children.  Then I called her hand one time and she said she wasn't ready to have a child yet, leaving me the stance for us to address the issue when she was.  It appears to me that I either didn't hear her bio clock ticking as loudly as it is, or the future just looked too undesirable for her to bear.
KenC

[topofthekey]

It appears to me that I either didn't hear her bio clock ticking as loudly as it is, or the future just looked too undesirable for her to bear.
KenC

Talk about honest. I think we've tossed some pretty hard questions a Ken. And I'm surprised he actually wrote that last sentence. It seems very genuine and honest to me and something that can in no way be easy to say. 

[Misha]

My health issues involved were not the current crisis that caused my emergency hospitalization, but the underlying cause that made me severely anemic and lethargic over the last few years.  The uncertain financial future added stress to the relationship.  And then on top pf the pile was the disappointment of never having children completed the dismal picture for her.  There were things that I was not happy with too, but being older and wiser, I was able to understand that you don't always get everything you want.

Ken,

I empathize with you. No matter how friendly they may be, divorces are always an emotional roller coaster, and having to deal with financial issues at the same time only compounds the stress.

Misha

[WmGO]

Ken,
I am sorry to hear about your situation.
I pray for an amicable, expeditious and healthy
resolution for you and Lena. Also, you are to be
commended for sharing your situation and allowing it
to be a learning opportunity for others.
Best regards.
William

********

Sidenote: since Ken already stated that these points
by Ambach were "spot on" I thought they deserved
repeating and maybe transporting to the questions to discuss
thread:

In summation, I have learnt two important lessons among many others from multitudes of other experiences described on the board.

1. If it is a young woman, she would want children, regardless of what she may say, unless  you accomodate that from the very beginning, you are in it for a rough ride.

2. Her expectations for whatever better life she expects here must be met, if those do not meet, the marriage will be over, sooner or later, and in many cases sooner or would not even get off the ground. Though this expectations would be different in different women. I thik it is very important to find out very early on what those expectations are and if you meet them.

[Markus]

Kenc,

 I truly am sorry that you are going through this. To me, the why really isn't that important. What's
more important is you getting on the other side of this. There's normally always hurt involved and it takes
time to heal.

I had recently experienced a health issue that temporarily altered my personality. I became edgy. I adjusted
to it and am being tested for sleep apnea that may have caused the problem. So, I understand how a
health issue can make you change.

You and I go back to when we used to exchange thoughts before this board existed. You know me from
my previous name TheOneWeekWonder. We have had differences of opinions, but this is something that
I sincerely offer my condolences. I respect how you have handled your situation on this board.

I wish the very best for you in the coming days.

Mark

[KenC]

Thank you Mark and all the others for your kind words of encouragement.  I didn't want this thread ever to be a "woe is me" one, but I have appreciated the warm words and the advice too.  It has made me reevaluate some things.  Unfortunately, the reevaluation is too little too late and Lena and I have decided to go forth with the divorce.  No drama, no threats only two people parting with dignity and class wishing each other well.

During the separation, Lena and I remained in close contact.   She would call me constantly for advice and input on many of the new decisions she had to make.  I happily helped her in many ways and she in return was at my bedside during my health crisis.  While this is all nice and civil on the surface, it came to be a downer for me and her.  It seemed as though one or the other would vacillate on the final decision to go through with the divorce or not but still not willing for a full reconciliation.  Quite frankly, I was tired of living my life in limbo.  I made the decision to cut all ties and communication with her in order to get off the emotional rollercoaster and move on with my life.

As I am posting this in past tense, I will update you on my current situation.  My health has greatly improved and I am at about 90% and headed toward 100%.  My new business venture is coming to fruition and the future looks brighter than ever in that area.  I have even been sticking my toe in the on line agencies to see what is happening there.  I may not be ready completely right now, but there is no rush either.  Just planning for the future now.  What can I say?  Once you go Russian, you can never go back. 
KenC

[JR]

It is too bad that reconciliation can't happen but you are right to separate yourself so that the emotions can calm down. Spend some time with yourself, get to know you again. When you are ready the world is awaiting your arrival.

[KenC]

Jolly,
Have spent the last 8 months alone and have gone through all the self evalutaions already.  Now I am ready to move on with the rest of my life.
KenC

[groovlstk]

Quite frankly, I was tired of living my life in limbo.  I made the decision to cut all ties and communication with her in order to get off the emotional rollercoaster and move on with my life.

Ken, that must've been a helluva hard decision, one I daresay most guys wouldn't have the seeds to go through with.

I'd expect nothing less from you, however.

BTW, I've never seen or read of a RW/AM marriage end amicably, it says a lot about not just your history together but the kind of quality people you both are.

[Faux Pas]

KenC

I'm a bit late to the dance and just saw this thread. My sincere sympathies. More often than not marriages sometimes just stop working for all involved. It usually requires a strong inner character to realize it. Your consistency on this forum is attest to your character. Its sad and hurts nonetheless. Good luck to you in however it finalizes.

[Maxx2]

It seems Ken's separation happened about the time his trip report ended (August '08, eight months ago). Did Ken write his love filled for Lena trip report (starting in Feb. '08) in the hope to win her heart and stop what he seen as their marriage heading for the rocks? We know that Lena was reading it because she lashed out at some RW women on the thread who were giving Ken a bad time. Or did the marriage suddenly go on the rocks last summer? Also noticed KenC stopped commenting on his TR after AJ wished him a happy 9th aniversary. I can see why.

[KenC]

It seems Ken's separation happened about the time his trip report ended (August '08, eight months ago). Did Ken write his love filled for Lena trip report (starting in Feb. '08) in the hope to win her heart and stop what he seen as their marriage heading for the rocks? We know that Lena was reading it because she lashed out at some RW women on the thread who were giving Ken a bad time. Or did the marriage suddenly go on the rocks last summer? Also noticed KenC stopped commenting on his TR after AJ wished him a happy 9th aniversary. I can see why.

Maxx,
If you have a question just ask.  Please don't try to play dime store psychologist.  I don't need one nor are you too good at it.

My trip report was started in February 08 and it continued on to include Lena's arrival and acclimation to America.  I didn't write it for Lena, I wrote it to share with RWD.  I would write it the same way today.  Lena didn't follow it either.  She only read the parts where some disrespectful people thought it was their place to interject their opinions regarding our marriage.  I thought that Lena's perspective would be hold more weight than my own at the time so I showed her those particular posts.  Who better to put a RW in her place than another RW?  Lena's strong and swift response to the naysayers would indicated that she was still strongly defending our marriage to outsiders. 

Nothing happened suddenly either.  If you read this thread, it can easily be understood that the conclusion was an accumulation of events that happened "one brick at a time." BTW, we had a very nice anniversary too.  So you are dead wrong on all accounts.
KenC

[SMS60]

  It seemed as though one or the other would vacillate on the final decision to go through with the divorce or not but still not willing for a full reconciliation.  Quite frankly, I was tired of living my life in limbo.  I made the decision to cut all ties and communication with her in order to get off the emotional rollercoaster and move on with my life.

As someone stated up thread I'm sure this was a difficult decision. But it is the best decision of the entire thread.

This is all about your life now. Keep moving forward.

Good luck.

[Maxx2]

Actually Ken I was wearing the kid gloves with my comments. I should be very happy closing the door on these last ten years. I hope next time you make a better choice.