Celebrating the Dead...

[SANDRO43]

Often the eating of putrid meat, was masked with spices and sauces.

Yes, the Romans had garum, the Vietnamese have nuoc, the Koreans kim chee, all prepared from rotting fish parts IINM. Never tasted any, they all sound quite disgusting , but possibly slightly less than rotting flesh.

[Sculpto]

Yes, the Romans had garum, the Vietnamese have nuoc, the Koreans kim chee, all prepared from rotting fish parts IINM. Never tasted any, they all sound quite disgusting , but possibly slightly less than rotting flesh.

I cant really speak about any place other than Mexico.. but, in general meat never was a very large part of the diet before the Europeans came, and, even today it still isn't for a lot of families.  Beans, corns, squash and chiles make up the staple of the Mexican diet with lots of tropical fruit as well.  I have noticed that the higher up in society the more bland the food.. whats that about???  BTW.. the hottest spice food in Mex is easily in the Yucatan, especially in the city of Merida.  There are dishes so hot there that not only will you sweat when eating them but they have certain purifying effects on the digestive system.  I have also noticed that after eating a scorching hot dish and having a nice sweat, the tropical heat is not so intense and after certain biological processes associated with acclimatizing to such food I feel very light on my feet..

[SANDRO43]

I have noticed that the higher up in society the more bland the food.. whats that about???

Maybe because their upper classes consider themselves more Spanish than Mexican, and shun native food as too campesino and therefore beneath their exalted dignity ? Or simply because they have fridges ?

[Sculpto]

Maybe because their upper classes consider themselves more Spanish than Mexican, and shun native food as too campesino and therefore beneath their exalted dignity ? Or simply because they have fridges ?

some maybe do, but not all.  Ok, for example.. i know a family that WAS very poor.. all they ever ate was beans and tortilla with "chile de arbol", but then the Dad made some money and they moved up.  They NEVER ate beans or tortilla again, except at christmas as a reminder... kids got real fat though...

On the other hand i know a few rather wealthy people who do not have fridges in their house.  Why?  Because they buy what they will eat that day.. they need a chicken?  they go out and kill one.  They want some rabbit?  same thing.  If they want some beef or pork they will make arrangements with the butcher ahead of time and purchase what they need for two to three days and cook it all at once.. just a different way of living.. and as they say.. "more natural" mas sano tambien

[OlgaH]

In Mexico there is an awesome holiday on Nov. 1, All Saints Day, or also known as Day of the Dead.  "A" had a big reaction to this name and did not even want to hear about a holiday that celebrates the dead.  At the time I thought it was because of the situation with her Father.. any thoughts?

In Russia we call the special days to honor memory of departed loved ones The Parents' Saturdays.

The first Saturday in November is Dmitriyevskaya (Demetrius) Parents' Saturday (before the day of Saint Dmitry). It was a day when Orthodox believers honored the memory of warriors, now it is the Universal Parents' Saturday to honor memory of all departed.
In Russian http://www.taganrog.orthodoxy.ru/index.php?id=6312

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Demetrius

   

If I remember it correctly - week after Orthodox Easter, in Spring. People go to the cemetery where their relatives are buried, and bring to the cemetery food and flowers, clean the graves, pray by the graves for the souls of the dead, sometimes maybe ask the dead to be good to the alive ones.

The second day after Easter is Radonitsa, Day of Rejoicing. We go to the cemetery not only to honor the memory of departed but also to be with our departed beloved ones and celebrate together the joy of Jesus Resurrection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radonitsa

The Troitskaya (Trinity) Parents' Saturday is the 50th day after Easter, before the day of the Saint Trinity. 
In Russian http://www.pravmir.ru/article_3018.html




 

[Sculpto]

In Russia we call the special days to honor memory of departed loved ones The Parents' Saturdays.

The first Saturday in November is Dmitriyevskaya (Demetrius) Parents' Saturday (before the day of Saint Dmitry). It was a day when Orthodox believers honored the memory of warriors, now it is the Universal Parents' Saturday to honor memory of all departed.
In Russian http://www.taganrog.orthodoxy.ru/index.php?id=6312

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Demetrius

   
Te second day after Easter is Radonitsa, Day of Rejoicing. We go to the cemetery not only to honor the memory of departed but also to be with our departed beloved ones and celebrate together the joy of Jesus Resurrection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radonitsa

The Troitskaya (Trinity) Parents' Saturday is th

So it is almost the same date.. is this event widely observed Olga?

this is a bit off the exact topic, but, I found an archive of some amazing photos from mexico.  I have attended this ritual many times, but, photography is not allowed.  This is the first time I have ever seen photos of this stuff.  The town of Chamula is just outside San Cristobal and is Mayan.  Their religion is a combination of ancient mayan ritual but with the icons replacing the ancient mayan symbols.  They are not Catholic and the Catholic Church is not allowed into the town.  There is some fire walking as you can see.. the archive is a bit large with no slide show unfortunately.. but the phtoography is excellent.. enjoy..   Now, I would certainly hope I can take "A" to see stuff like this..

[Wienerin]

So it is almost the same date.. is this event widely observed Olga?

this is a bit off the exact topic, but, I found an archive of some amazing photos from mexico.  I have attended this ritual many times, but, photography is not allowed.  This is the first time I have ever seen photos of this stuff.  The town of Chamula is just outside San Cristobal and is Mayan.  Their religion is a combination of ancient mayan ritual but with the icons replacing the ancient mayan symbols.  They are not Catholic and the Catholic Church is not allowed into the town.  There is some fire walking as you can see.. the archive is a bit large with no slide show unfortunately.. but the phtoography is excellent.. enjoy..   Now, I would certainly hope I can take "A" to see stuff like this..

There're a number of days in Orthodox calendar which are dedicated to the commemoration of your dead. Mostly - by prayer and|or ordering a service in your church. The recommended visits - to clean the grave site and the tomb, plant flowers, say a prayer, etc. are first the Great Parents St.Trinity Saturday - Saturday before the StTrinity day; a Saturday of the last week before Lent; Radonitsa (from Radost' - Joy) - Tuesday in the second week after the Easter; Dmitry Solunski Parents Saturday - a week before the St.Dmitry Day (Nov.

There're others, but those don't involve coming to the cemetary. Also a visit might be appropriate on the birth and death days, one's angel's day (difficult to observe now since only a few are baptised with the saint's name - whoever happened to be the saint on or nearest one's birthday).

The attendance is really very big, in StPetersburg they even provide extra bus etc. service to the most popular cemetaries. On Radonitsa and StTrininty Parents' Saturday. The custom is so ingrained that Jews also come and visit their dead ones.

Unfortunately, another customs - from the pagan times - persists, in spite of the ire of the Church, which expressively forbids this, and brands it as a sin. I mean eating and worse still drinking on the grave, and leaving food and even shots of vodka. Worse still is bringing blessed food from the church for this "feast".

For my own reasons I'm in agreement with the church on this. Not only do the visitors themselves get drunk, quarrelsome and disordery, but the food and drink left draw all kinds of bums to the semetaries, who steal things, defile the graves, etc.

BTW - I enjoy Mexican skeletons SO much! I fell in love with them when there was a great exhibition of Mexican art in StPetersburg in the early 60s - I've just read Keran's "Gods, Tombs, Scholars" - and was happy to see Aztec stuff, and even those wonderful Toltec and Olmec heads, etc. But best of all were skeleton orchestra, skeleton wedding, skeleton schoolroom, etc. And then I could show the Boatswain these in Fort Worth Museum, - we were lucky to visit there when they had Mexican Folk Art exhibition... The papier-mache jaguars were also great!

[OlgaH]

So it is almost the same date.. is this event widely observed Olga?

The Orthodox church events are observed by Orthodox believers. And as Mies said the Parents' Saturdays is the quiet days to light the candles and say prayers for the departed being with them in our thoughts.

In Orthodox Christianity every day of the week has its own meaning. Saturday is a day when God  finished creation of the Universe and took rest in the good things he had made. The Saturday points to the eternal blessed peace (rest) in unity with God. The Orthodox Church devotes the Saturday to apotheosis of the holy martyrs and remembrance of the brothers died in faith.  

Prayers for the departed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_for_the_dead#Praxis

this is a bit off the exact topic, but, I found an archive of some amazing photos from mexico. 

Would you be so kind to post the link to the photos.  

[Sculpto]

day of San Juan Carnaval.. its a 3 day and night celebration that includes a lot of fire walking and sacrificing of animals (not shown) sacred music and fireworks..

http://www.festivalcervantino.gob.mx/Ficesmas/prensa/galerias/oct/16/Chamulasok/

[OlgaH]

day of San Juan Carnaval.. its a 3 day and night celebration that includes a lot of fire walking and sacrificing of animals (not shown) sacred music and fireworks..

http://www.festivalcervantino.gob.mx/Ficesmas/prensa/galerias/oct/16/Chamulasok/

Thank you, Sculpto. Very interesting. I understand about the Catholic Church 

I also looked for some information about the Festival Internacional Cervantino
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festival_Internacional_Cervantino

San Juan Chamula, Mexico: A Church out of Time
http://www.forteantimes.com/features/fortean_traveller/253/san_juan_chamula_mexico_a_church_out_of_time.html

[Sculpto]

Thank you, Sculpto. Very interesting. I understand about the Catholic Church 

I also looked for some information about the Festival Internacional Cervantino
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festival_Internacional_Cervantino

San Juan Chamula, Mexico: A Church out of Time
http://www.forteantimes.com/features/fortean_traveller/253/san_juan_chamula_mexico_a_church_out_of_time.html

The photos from Chamula are not from the festival cervantino.  The site is run by the mex gov and i am a bit confused about how it is organized.  It is possible that some of the photos are from guanaguato and others from chamula.. but I can not say for certain.  At any rate.. carnaval in Chamula is a big event that draws thousands of Chamulans, mayans from neighboring villages and a large number of internationals who arrive to view the rituals.  The most exciting part is when they let and angry bull lose into the crowd and people try to jump on the bull.  I am told those bulls become dinner for the entire community...

[OlgaH]

The photos from Chamula are not from the festival cervantino.  The site is run by the mex gov and i am a bit confused about how it is organized.  It is possible that some of the photos are from guanaguato and others from chamula.. but I can not say for certain. 

For me the photos look like the photos of the night staged performance.. The "Carnaval Chamula" could be a name of the performance that took place at the Plazuela Hidalgo in Guanajuato City.
http://www.guanajuatocapital.com/ingles/Ahidalgo.htm

One of Robert's clients presented me the photo booklet of Guanajuato (beautiful and fascinating city), when we told  that one of my favorite destination is Mexico.  Robert and I planed our next trip to Mexico, but because of the warning about the current situation in Mexico, we temporary changed our plan. 

[Sculpto]

One of Robert's clients presented me the photo booklet of Guanajuato (beautiful and fascinating city), when we told  that one of my favorite destination is Mexico.  Robert and I planed our next trip to Mexico, but because of the warning about the current situation in Mexico, we temporary changed our plan. 

you should have no problems in Guanajuato, San Miguel, Cuernavaca, Taxco, San Luis Potosi, Queretaro, Jalapa, Tepotzlan... all awesome places in central Mexico not especially far from Mexico City.  If you wanted to go to the Red Light District of Tijuana or Juarez or the wild west areas of Sinaloa I would talk you out of it, but, as is normal most of the garbage is taking place in a rather confined area and that is not the major central region cities and tourist destinations.  Mexico is a big country (not to Russians) and the violence is very targeted so for most visitors there is very little if any danger. 

If you want a real bargain on a beach location look at Bahias de Huatulco in the state of Oaxaca.  This area was supposed to be the next Cancun but it never really caught on.  It has evolved into the most ecologically sensitive planned development in Mexico.  The area is rather high end, but, because the crowds never materialized there are some real bargains available there for renting a beachside house and other sorts of things.  If you want some more Mexico info send me a pm and i would be really happy to help design a safe and culturally rewarding vacation.

[JR]

sacrificing of animals (not shown) sacred music and fireworks..
http://www.festivalcervantino.gob.mx/Ficesmas/prensa/galerias/oct/16/Chamulasok/

Ummm, sacrificing of animals...now that's a topic to discuss with your would-be Russian bride

[OlgaH]

Ummm, sacrificing of animals...now that's a topic to discuss with your would-be Russian bride

Every day animals are sacrificed to our table  and also clothes, shoes...

[JR]

actually they aren't. You don't eat or wear sacrificed animals.  Anyway, it's completely off topic since neither Americans, Germans, Brits, Aussies, Ukranians or Russians practice animal sacrifice nowadays.

Lily, could I talk you into deleting this whole thread?

[OlgaH]

actually they aren't. You don't eat or wear sacrificed animals.  Anyway, it's completely off topic since neither Americans, Germans, Brits, Aussies, Ukranians or Russians practice animal sacrifice nowadays.

actually I used the word "sacrificed" metaphorically 

And it is not off topic, because if your girl is vegetarian it is better to know about it 

[JR]

I understood the metaphor.

Vegetarianism is quite common in most Western, European and many Eastern European nations. It is not a show stopper topic for most people.

I started this thread as a way to communicate some of the cultural differences which might cause marriages/relationships to go sour if they were not broached prior to a commitment being made, not to relate how beautiful Oaxaca Mexico is.

I was simply trying to gently nudge it back onto track.

[Sculpto]

its not off topic Jolly.. in fact the topic evolved out of the conversation about the Day of the Dead which caused significant controversy in my relationship.  Now that I am armed with examples of similiar, though far less exhuberant but none the less Russian, forms of the same celebration I might be able to keep a very special day for me as part of the calender.  

I have also witnessed cock fighting in Mexico.  While to most Americans it seems barbaric in Mexico it is almost a national sport.  It is even shown on TV sometimes.. some bars hold competitions for big money on Sundays.. same would go for bullfighting.. I have been to the bullfights in both Spain and Mexico.. not my cup of tea personally, but, it is an interesting cultural form and would be curious if my woman would want to see it once, or, get an idea how she might react to the suggestion.  

OK, here is a conundrum for you.. I once got into a heated discussion with an Amigo in Mexico.. I was critical of the barbarism of cock fighting which he defended as a national pastime.. "the birds are raised to fight, whats the problem?"  'Its bloody and cruel and a waste of life'  "And in the USA abortion is legal, so, what right do you have to be critical of a sport based on fighting animals that are raised to fight?"

I didn't have an answer.. anyway, my point is there are so many cultural "death traps" why not discuss here things that are unusual?  Its certainly more interesting than talking about FSUW views on nail polish.  

[OlgaH]

I understood the metaphor.

Vegetarianism is quite common in most Western, European and many Eastern European nations. It is not a show stopper topic for most people.

Have you ever read debates between vegetarians and non-vegetarians on the forums? Very often it is too heated arguments  

I started this thread as a way to communicate some of the cultural differences which might cause marriages/relationships to go sour if they were not broached prior to a commitment being made, not to relate how beautiful Oaxaca Mexico is.

I was simply trying to gently nudge it back onto track.

Having a conversation about traveling and countries also can be very useful   You can see how person is tolerant to other culture or if he or she is steeped in prejudice that you can not take  

Gently nudging it back onto track  

[JR]

Have you ever read debates between vegetarians and non-vegetarians on the forums? Very often it is too heated arguments  

Having a conversation about traveling and countries also can be very useful   You can see how person is tolerant to other culture or if he or she is steeped in prejudice that you can not take  

Gently nudging it back onto track  

Actually that is called justification.

[OlgaH]

Actually that is called justification.

I would call it a conversation   

Normal conversation very often has a lyrical digression from the main subject, but through that lyrical digression you also can receive useful information about a person's views 

Of course you can rule: "Stepping to the left or to the right will be considered as an attempt to escape and I will shoot without warning" 

[Blues Fairy]

"And in the USA abortion is legal, so, what right do you have to be critical of a sport based on fighting animals that are raised to fight?"

I didn't have an answer..

You didn't have an answer?  ...you mean the above seemed like a logical argument to you?

Why am I not surprised?

[JR]

I would call it a conversation   

Of course you can rule: "Stepping to the left or to the right will be considered as an attempt to escape and I will shoot without warning" 

Of course you would. So would Blues Fairy and Sculpto in regards to their 'conversation' regarding fighting animals and abortion in the above post. That is called justification.

Done.

[OlgaH]

That is called justification.

Justification of what