I'm a Russian woman in America now

[OlgaH]

Olga, corruption is prevalent everywhere and there are plenty of examples. I can understand your defensiveness when one points out and speaks negatively about Russian corruption but, are you of the belief than Russia is more, less or the same corrupt as anywhere else?

Faux Pas, I'm saying when 8 Russians prefer to give a bribe and only 2 to report about a bribery it doesn't help to fight corruption. It is about mentality. 

[Faux Pas]

Faux Pas, I'm saying when 8 Russians prefer to give a bribe and only 2 to report about a bribery it doesn't help to fight corruption. It is about mentality. 

It is certainly a "learned" mentality. Those 8 would not choose to deal with the reprecussions that come for not dealing or offering a bribe. Likely because they have experienced it already. I don't really understand your logic Olga, corruption has to be dealt with from the top down instead of the other way around. Those on the bottom having to pay bribes are the victims of corruption. IMO 

[OlgaH]

It is certainly a "learned" mentality. Those 8 would not choose to deal with the reprecussions that come for not dealing or offering a bribe. Likely because they have experienced it already. I don't really understand your logic Olga, corruption has to be dealt with from the top down instead of the other way around. Those on the bottom having to pay bribes are the victims of corruption. IMO  

Unfortunately top corruption exist even in US as we can read in the reports.    People in Russia should learn how to cooperate and step by step they do it but it will take the time.   Collective irresponsibility is a shield for corruption. A Checking Commission can not work on the basis of one complain. Victims will be victims when they give up.

About 70% of the questioned businessmen in Russia for  corruption according to the Public anti-corruption Committee, it helps to resolve their business problems....
http://liberty.ru/Themes/Vopl-biznesmena-ostav-te-nam-korrupciyu!

... especially when an owner of business has so much violation and prefer to give a bribe and continue. In such case corruption is a benefit for such businessmen.

[OlgaH]

Other problem with people mentality in Russia when they are (sorry in advance for my language) fu-ed by the employers, when people agree to work without contracts or they work with the contracts and in the contracts only a minimum wage is mentioned, but so called bonuses or percentages they get in envelopes.   

[Blues Fairy]

... especially when an owner of business has so much violation and prefer to give a bribe and continue. In such case corruption is a benefit for such businessmen.

Olga, it's very unlikely that businessmen would simply "prefer" giving bribes instead of operating within the law, unless the law itself makes operations within it unnecessarily cumbersome and bordering on inefficiency.  Much of the bribery problem in Russia can be resolved by lessening the pressure on the small business and private citizens and simplifying the bureaucratic procedures.  Unfortunately, fleecing the citizens and businesses is much more lucrative for the gov-t than reforming the system and enforcing the law. 

[OlgaH]

Blues Fairy, I agree with you there many problems with bureaucratic procedures. Corruption and bureaucratic system has been existing in Russia for the centuries and it is not easy to rid of it when it is in "the blood" of people. The system is created not just by the "Top", corruption is two sided process.

US became US that is now not for one day and not just because of changing in the government, but because of people 

[OlgaH]

RUSSIAN UNION OF INDUSTRIALISTS AND ENTREPRENEURS
http://www.rspp.ru/Default.aspx?CatalogId=283&d_no=2925

8. Гораздо хуже обстоят дела в отношениях с представителями власти. Ни на уровне экономической политики, ни на уровне взаимоотношений с отдельными чиновниками действия государства не удовлетворяют предпринимателей. При этом, в отличие от споров с другими участниками рынка, лишь немногие предприниматели рассчитывают отстоять свои права в возможных конфликтах с представителями государства. Не в этом ли объяснение низких оценок защищенности и гарантий прав собственности, так необходимых для обеспечения адекватных стимулов к нововведениям, являющихся ядром экономического развития?


In other words the report by the Union says that only small part of  entrepreneurs expect to uphold their  rights. So what about the majority?  Do they give up? or they don't care and maybe the Public anti-corruption committee is right about that 70% of questioned businessmen? In any case an attitude of majority doesn't help to change the system and policy.

[Shadow]

The other day I had a funny discussion with Mrs Shadow about the topic of bribes.

We thought about a hypothetical situation where all salaries of Militia were raised to a very comfortable level, under the strict stipulation that anyone caught would be imprisoned, and a manageable control.

Now lets take the situation of traffic fines. Russia is a cash based society, and people would find it a lot of unneeded work if they would have to wait until they got a letter home and then go somewhere to pay their fine. So they would rather pay to the officer.
At the end of the day, every officer will go to the bank with their collection of tickets, and deposit the corresponding amount in to the police departments account.
Then the accounting staff will have to check all tickets for the correct amounts, presence etc.

I believe that this would be a costly operation for the state, as apart from raising the salaries of the police, they would need a lot of extra staff to handle all administration.

Perhaps that is one of the reasons corruption has not been dealt with... the practical implications.

[Sculpto]

Yes, there are plenty of low paying jobs in the world, that was not my argument.. I simply pointed out the inefficiency of a specific branch of the Russian Department of Labor, and it's notoriety for pushing low paying unskilled jobs to professionals, regardless of the state of the economy..

same thing here.  For example.. I have a friend who is in his mid 50's.  He has worked at an executive level for at least 15 years until he was laid off a year and a half ago.  No retraining available that would be useful to him.  He can go from earning 6 figures to being a janitor.  He is fortunate that his wife also earns very well and does not have a problem with him retiring early. 

I don't think California is representative of the entire US, but anyway my point was that most small business in Russia would just like the government to leave them alone as much as possible and not invent a new way to fleece them every year.. Because with each new regulation, the amount of bribes to be paid goes up exponentially..

Its not different here in that respect.  In some communities it might even be worse.  For example, there is a cerrtain municipality north of the Golden Gate Bridge which is an exceptionally beautiful area.  However, if you want to open any sort of business you must go before community review and an extremely strident permit process.  Then, they come back and doink you for more later on.  The ONLY difference is instead of bribing an individual you are paying off the municipality which has the payments written into law.  But, don't make your payments?  They will shut you down.  I know about this simply because at one time i had considered opening a business in that area but once I understood what was involved I opted out.

Point taken.. But how would you feel if everything you did was up to code, whatever it may be at the time, and were still asked for a bribe to make sure you stay up to code or to keep the inspector away for more than one day at a time?. My gf is a business owner, and trust me this is exactly what has to deal with.. it's either you pay or they keep coming back until they find something they can fine you for, and then you pay anyway.. You can't go over their heads every time unless you're well-connected, in which case you probably wouldn't be a small business owner in the first place.. you'd be the head of a multi-million corporation.. And this has been going on since the fall of the Union.. The current economic crisis is only a year old..

Possum its really no different here.  The small guy gets screwed and the corporation gets a tax break.  Its not a national issue.. its a human issue.

But but you just GOT change!. The tall smooth taking guy on TV, isn't he all about change?.

Change at the national level is not going to have an immediate impact locally in the kinds of topics we are talking about. 

[Sculpto]

Olga, it's very unlikely that businessmen would simply "prefer" giving bribes instead of operating within the law, unless the law itself makes operations within it unnecessarily cumbersome and bordering on inefficiency.  Much of the bribery problem in Russia can be resolved by lessening the pressure on the small business and private citizens and simplifying the bureaucratic procedures.  Unfortunately, fleecing the citizens and businesses is much more lucrative for the gov-t than reforming the system and enforcing the law. 

I doubt that BF.  Some people prefer corruption as a way of getting things done.  I refer back to one of the bribes I witnessed here in SF.  Let me tell you how it went...

I went to meet some contractors and the meeting ran late so they offered to take me to lunch because they had a critical meeting with a building inspector.  Just before we went into that lunch they counted out 10 thousand dollars in cash and stuffed it into an envelope.  They passed the envelope under the table during the lunch meeting.  I was FURIOUS that I had been exposed to a felony.  When I went back to the office I complained to the owner of my company that I did not want to work with that kind of people and explained why.  Shortly later I was laid off.  Care to take a guess why?

[groovlstk]

The other day I had a funny discussion with Mrs Shadow about the topic of bribes.

We thought about a hypothetical situation where all salaries of Militia were raised to a very comfortable level, under the strict stipulation that anyone caught would be imprisoned, and a manageable control.

Now lets take the situation of traffic fines. Russia is a cash based society, and people would find it a lot of unneeded work if they would have to wait until they got a letter home and then go somewhere to pay their fine. So they would rather pay to the officer.
At the end of the day, every officer will go to the bank with their collection of tickets, and deposit the corresponding amount in to the police departments account.
Then the accounting staff will have to check all tickets for the correct amounts, presence etc.

I believe that this would be a costly operation for the state, as apart from raising the salaries of the police, they would need a lot of extra staff to handle all administration.

Perhaps that is one of the reasons corruption has not been dealt with... the practical implications.

Any practical implications are vastly outweighed by the problems such corruption creates.

This is one of those issues where it's very difficult to find consensus. Many American men seem to think that it's simply a matter of Russian people flicking a switch or passing a few laws, and voila!, the problem goes away. Pure poppycock. It's never that simple, particularly since for many raised in such conditions it is a way of life and not seen as unethical or immoral, but as simple day-to-day business.

Getting outraged when a Russian person doesn't see an issue that a Westerner thinks is plain as day is silly and such guys should stay home, IMHO.

[Shadow]

Any practical implications are vastly outweighed by the problems such corruption creates.

Tell me exactly what problem is created by this corruption ? 

[Jazzyclassy]

  Here's a word of advice to anyone immigrating to America, Canada or any other country:  You will find yourself very warmly received and people will find you the most interesting person in the room.  That is, right up until the time you start expressing negative views of your new country.  So if you want to make yourself more miserable than you already are, go head, exercise your right to show poor taste.           

It is just silly, nobody would express  negative views of the new country to its representatives, they are not fools, they just wont agree with some statements, but if they want to share negative impressions about the country they would just do it with their own family or close friends at home, making sure they would be understood

Yes home is where your heart is,it is true, though i met few people who would surely say that the new country they 've moved recently to is there home, unlike they lived in misery and in a negative environment in Russia or any other native country, back home

For example  I worked in a good company in the office in Moscow and here i have to work in the supermarket just to start somewhere at first, though it is a huge bash on a self esteem, all those little things all together takes time to get used to and i doubt somebody like me will ever feel 100% at home in a new country, the heart will always be ripped apart for sure

[groovlstk]

Tell me exactly what problem is created by this corruption ? 

Shadow, just limiting my answer to the scope of your example (militsya), off the top of my head:
-Corruption is the chief reason why most Russians have zero faith in their local militsya and will avoid asking for their help unless absolutely necessary
-People are able to bribe their way out of real crimes - not just traffic ticktes, be it a auto accident (ask Mendeleyev), dealing drugs, or beating the stuffing out of someone
-Most Westerners considering travel to Russia are advised to avoid the militsya to avoid being shaken down - how often this happens can be debated, but there's no doubt it spells lost revenue for local businesses when tourists decide to visit Prague or Krakow instead

I'm sure there are more.

I'm not someone who gets all high and mighty about this stuff, it is what it is. If I relocated there I'd do just as the locals do. But I'd never approve or excuse it or try to spin it as beneficial to Russian society.

[Natasha_S]

Hi Natasha,

You are about to witness something very American.  I have no idea if socio/political debate is conducted in this way in Russia.  I hope you enjoy the show.  

Ronnie Ronnie Ronnie.. are you on the payroll of the Repugnant Party?

Tell me why is it Russians are ALWAYS portrayed negatively on tv or film?  Can you recall even one single instance of a Russian character with any positive attributes?  Like it or not most sorry Americans are informed by not by news media but by entertainment.  Popular entertainment culture influences opinion and values.  How pervasive is the negative image of Russians in popular culture?  Here is my experience prior to going to Moscow.

Almost every single person I told I was going, beyond my immediate circle of friends, told me the following in one variation or another.  "Watch out, the Mafia kills foreigners there."  "Watch out for the police, they are all corrupt and will throw you in jail for nothing"  "Aren't the people very poor in Russia?  Be careful or you will be robbed or murdered"  etc..  Not one single person had anything good to say or anything even remotely connected to reality.  Where do they get their information?

Now, as Shadow astutely pointed out, your blaming Putin for every thing bad that has happened n Russia is not only blind but is in fact propagandistic in nature.  Putin is no Stalin, thats for sure.  He is widely popular inside Russia.  I personally don't care for him and see his handling of Chechnya, Beslan and other incidents as being a very strong negative, and, he is the ultimate Oligarch.  However, Russians love him because he has given back a sense of national pride to the country, kind of like Reagan did for us back in '82.  But I guess in your warped mind Russians are not allowed to be patriotic because that is somehow a threat to YOU.

Now, lets take a closer look at the dynamics of the Georgian conflict in comparison to the Cuban/Central American issue.  The USA never tolerated ANY Soviet influence in our hemisphere.  The 40 years of ravage in Central America are clear proof of this.  We spared no expense nor paid not one bit of attention to the collateral loss of human life to prevent Soviet influence in our back yard.  So, fast forward to the last few years.. Ukraine is on our payroll, Georgia is on our payroll, not sure which of the 'Stans but more than one are also on our payroll.  Only Belarus has remained loyal to the Kremlin.  So, there we are on Russia's backdoor buying influence, bankrolling military expansion, paying back the Ukrainians for their misguided support in Irak and you think that Russia should just lay down and take it in the proverbial back door?  We are provoking the bear.  Not a very smart foreign policy.  And, in fact, it is just such right wing stupidity that got your guys voted out because most Americans are just fed up with the provocations and war mongering the right is so fond of.  

Face it Ronnie.  Your kind of thinking is outmoded, backwards, foolish and very dangerous going forward.  We need to engage in cooperation with EVERYONE if the world is going to develop in a positive way and provide sustenance and a decent life for the majority of the inhabitants of the planet.  We can no longer afford to go around the world imposing our self serving will and expect there not to be repercussions.  I can understand you do not want to sacrifice the standard of living you have worked hard to achieve, but, you do not have the right to preserve that standard of living at the expense of others.  The ideas you promote do not follow the Golden Rule yet I suspect in your warped sense of reality you somehow manage to justify your value system.

Oh, and about New York.. my hometown.. dude.. you have a screw loose.  New Yorkers want people like you to think it is a rotten place.  Thats how they keep the riffraff out.    For those that have never been.. New York is the MOST cultured, most educated and best city in the USA.  I highly advise a visit.  You will enjoy the some of the greatest museums in the world, incredible architecture, amazing social diversity, the prettiest girls in the USA, the best food in the USA, and so on.  New York is awesome and even though a bit diminished after the rough times of the last 8 years or so, it is still the capital of the world.  Go to New York. 

sidenote.. I believe this was written without personal attack.  If any is perceived it was unintentional.  Lets keep it that way please.

Hello Sculpto,
It's nice to see there is a person here that is very sensible and that gives a very realistic vision of the modern situation in Russian policy.

Natasha

[Sculpto]

Thanks Natasha.. its nice to know someone appreciates my perspectives. 

If you have the chance go see Frank Lloyd Wrights "Falling Water" which is not too terribly far from where you are living. 

http://www.fallingwater.org/

[Natasha_S]

Natasha welcome

And few words about culture shock , i do not think it is sincere saying that one never had any, it is inevitable to experience a lot of unknown  and crazy customs and strange traditions different nations have. I think i still have a culture shock being abroad for 9 months, especially when you come from Moscow to a village...

I am not saying everybody should have culture shock in this particular maybe rough way , but you might feel homesick from time to time as well

Hello,
First of all, I think this will vary from woman to woman and a person will always stay as he or she is, but living in another country a person has to adopt to a new life.
There's not any difference for me coming from Moscow to an American village because now I can see that any American village is highly developed and has high living standards.
Moscow has adopted so many American things; for example, the cinemas there are mirror images of the ones here and so are the shopping malls. This is only two examples but there are many more like holidays that have been adopted. There are many American companies there also and not just McDonalds.
We have been taught this American influence since 1992. That is another reason I don't suffer from any culture shock in general. The picture that I see now is perfect for me; it's what I saw in my mind before I came here and I wouldn't change it.

To be honest, the only surprise I had was the Orthodox church here. It is much different than the ones in Moscow but I will learn to accept it.

Natasha

[ECOCKS]

Natasha:

How do you find the church to be different?

[Natasha_S]

Natasha:

How do you find the church to be different?

Hello ECOCKS,
Well first, the church here has very few icons and they don't sell candles here to place at the icons, so it's impossible to go to a certain icon that you need to pray to. The church looks more like a catholic church because the church is full of benches while the Russian churches have none to let more people come inside. And of course the language is in english which was very hard to understand even for me because it was being chanted at a very fast pace.

Natasha

[OlgaH]

I am not saying everybody should have culture shock in this particular maybe rough way , but you might feel homesick from time to time as well

I got my culture shock the day after arrival when we went shopping for some groceries. It was a young, maybe 20 y.o., extremely fat girl with tattoos all over her body in formless T-shirt and shorts...  and with toilet plunger with long stick on her bald head, she was shopping with her girl friend asking her loud so everyone could hear "Do you like my tiara?" ... as I saw her driving after shopping I thought... (it doesn't matter what I thought)  After nothing has been a surprise.

Agree with you about feeling homesick.
Last Saturday my girlfriends called me, they had a party. So I also had two glasses of wine while I was talking with them on the phone ... though it was 8 AM  

[Sculpto]

I got my culture shock the day after arrival when we went shopping for some groceries. It was a young, maybe 20 y.o., extremely fat girl with tattoos all over her body in formless T-shirt and shorts...  and with toilet plunger with long stick on her bald head, she was shopping with her girl friend asking her loud so everyone could hear "Do you like my tiara?" ... as I saw her driving after shopping I thought... (it doesn't matter what I thought)  After nothing has been a surprise.

Agree with you about feeling homesick.
Last Saturday my girlfriends called me, they had a party. So I also had two glasses of wine while I was talking with them on the phone ... though it was 8 AM  

   you have been to SF haven't you?  Just another normal day here.. lol

[possum]

possum, I did not live in Tomsk, but I know story of Alexander Makarov.

Makarov is out on bail right now, and it's starting to look like he might get away with what he did.. When that happens, what message do you think it'll send to the average Russian entrepreneur?. Don't give up the good fight, do everything by the book and watch the bad guy rot in prison?. Yeah, right..

Regarding corruption in US you can find examples as below  

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081211161741.htm

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-corruption-louisiana_wittmar27,0,2957672.story

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel09/highlight_052009.htm

High-level corruption in the US does not impress me in the slightest, as it exists everywhere from Zanzibar to Honduras to France..

No, possum, you did not get. You as many Russians, probably, have some myths about life in US   But US as any other countries has its own problems   Yes, life in US in comparison with Russia or other counties of FSU much better, but it is not just the US Government who makes such life but also people of US  

I would say it's the system that makes it possible for most people to have a decent life, but try explaining that to someone who longs for CHANGE.. Believe it or not, I'm pretty knowledgeable about the situation in the US, but I have been out of the loop for the past few months due to personal stuff, hence my references to CHANGE- I really want to know if it's come yet..

[Ronnie]

Sculpto, here's the problem.  

You don't see an ounce of difference between the United States and the Soviet Union.  Kennedy and Krushchev, Roosevelt and Stalin, Liberty and Tryanny.  These are just names and words of no distinction to you.  With that as your basis, everything you say almost sounds reasonable.  I could even agree with you.  

Certainly we haven't been recently concerned about countries of the eastern hemisphere exerting influence in our hemisphere.   But you mention Cuba.  Did we oppose Krushchev because he was Russian?  Are we against Russians or against marxist-leninist totalitarianism and it's threat to free people?  You know the answer.

You may know that Americans and Russians have long been friends.  North of you is a town named Sevastopol in honor of the Crimean city.  The name did not come about because some Crimean immigrants settled there.  No, the city got it's name from it early American residents who cheered the Russians (against the British and French) during the great siege of the city during the Crimean War, which was the first war ever reported on by the American press as it happened.

But I digress.  Of course my thinking (in your world) is backwards and foolish.  The man going the wrong way on the freeway always thinks the others are the idiots.  You're the guy who ignores what has taken the country from where it was a mere century and a half ago, to the most desirable place to live on this planet.  If you disagree about America's desirability, then again, you ignore the traffic patterns of millions of immigrants who vote with their feet.  To argue otherwise serves no purpose and deceives no one.

So America's desire to make some sacrifices in order to share the blessings of liberty in the lands of our ancestors to you is to you "dangerous going forward."   You don't care that it  broke the back of fascism in Italy (though many progressives here loved Benito in the thirties), crushed National Socialism in Germany and help tear down walls of the Soviet Block.  My uncle gave up his young life stopping the communist expansion at the 38th parallel in Korea.  By the way, how's that socialist system working out for the North Koreans?

I'm all for new ideas but almost every social experiment has already been tried at this stage in world history.  What you and your "progressive" friends want to do, it seems, is "change" that which provably and remarkably works into something that is a proven and disasterous failure.  Tell me again... who's thinking is backwards?  

[OlgaH]

The church looks more like a catholic church because the church is full of benches while the Russian churches have none to let more people come inside.
Natasha

We have benches in  Orthodox churches in Russia for people who physically can not stand on their feet. Standing on one's feet during long service is one of the ascetic rules in Orthodoxy when the flesh surrenders to the Spirit - fighting with sloth. As Isaac the Syrian said that a beginning of mind dimming first of all is seen in the laziness towards Divine service and prayer  

[Sculpto]

I'm all for new ideas but almost everything has already be tried at this stage in world history.  What you and your "progressive" friends want to do, it seems, is "change" that which provably and remarkably works into something that is a proven and disasterous failure.  Tell me again... who's thinking is backwards?  

Ronnie.. I didn't quote the rest of your post because its silly.  I have noticed your method of arguing, which is frankly very typical of conservatives, is to make assumptions about the other person and put words and ideas in their mouth as if they spoke such words themselves.  I wont fall for that.  Your hyperbole is wasted.

Now.. to the only part of your post worth discussing..

What worked before worked based on an assumption of unlimited growth and unlimited speculation.  Clearly this assumption has failed us.  When you throw in the dismantling of American industry in favor of an import based economy I am sorry but the writing is on the wall.  The system which you are trying to defend has failed all of us and no amount of propping it up is going to bring things back to the way they were.  its not sustainable.

Going forward frankly no one knows what to do.  I don't see how we can reestablish our industrial base without enacting protectionism and there is no movement afoot to do so.  Even if it were attempted the international backlash would be horrific.  So, that is not an answer.  

What I see right now is the new administration is taking baby steps towards trying to at least stabilize the situation.  Investment in infrastructure is a great idea.  I think we should double or more the amount already committed and fix the roads, energy systems, schools and health care systems and massively invest in anything that is innovative and can generate new ways of creating wealth.  

There has been a lot of discussion on the forum regarding corruption in the last few days. When I see the state of California cutting the budget in so many extreme ways it causes me to ask.. after they eliminate ALL the services the state was providing for the social safety net in health and education.. what will be left?  Just a bunch of politicians and their aides and the leftover career bureaucrats who all make comfortable six figure incomes yet produce nothing of value to anyone.  Its the ultimate scam.

Better make sure your kids speak Mandarin.