I'm a Russian woman in America now

[Shadow]

Shadow, corruption is killing Ukraine.  Ukraine was always more corrupt than Russia, even in Soviet times.  This is the primary reason it is not succeeding economically, and is at a political stalemate, with little progress for the people.  The corruption is systemic, from the very top to the lowly militia officer on the street.

Curruption is everywhere, also in the Western countries, though it has been mostly banned from low-level jobs. What problems is causes is countered by the benefits.
To blame economic problems on corruption is not seing the real cause.

To Ronnie, if you check your history you will see not only many bloody plains in the USA where people battled both the native Americans and each other, but also 2500 years less 'civilized' history. Young grasshoppers, you have much to learn. 

[Shadow]

When you read your own post carefully you will see that corruption is the least of the problems. The selfish mentality where the own desires are more important than lives of other people is what the real problem is.

While I have not lived in Ukraine, I have visited and have discussed a lot of things with Ukrainians, and follow the news about the FSU from both Western and Eastern sources.

[Boethius]

It is a chicken and egg thing.  Does the selfishness exist because of corruption, so those with power try to pull the blanket on themselves, or does corruption exist because of selfishness?

The problem, I believe, is that the old system was not dismantled.  What is happening is a continuation of communist practices served under a new sauce.

[Shadow]

It is a chicken and egg thing.  Does the selfishness exist because of corruption, so those with power try to pull the blanket on themselves, or does corruption exist because of selfishness?

The problem, I believe, is that the old system was not dismantled.  What is happening is a continuation of communist practices served under a new sauce.

Interesting that unlike some neighbours Ukraine would not have been able to dismantle the communist practices in 20 years. The selfishness exists without corruption, corruption is just a way to get something from nothing.

[Boethius]

Interesting that unlike some neighbours Ukraine would not have been able to dismantle the communist practices in 20 years. The selfishness exists without corruption, corruption is just a way to get something from nothing.

That is apples and oranges.  If you are referring to non FSU Eastern Europe, remember that those countries did not endure 70 plus years of communism.  They were far more industrialized and urban than the USSR was even before WWII.  Successive generations of their intellectual classes were not completely destroyed.  Their peasants weren't starved into submission.  Though there was repression, their populations did not experience gulags.  On the collapse of communism, they still had generations alive who remembered democracy.  Plus, in most of those countries, the intellectual class and the working class were not divided.  (Solidarnosc, which I believe was the spark that caused the downfall of communism, would not have succeeded without the support of intellectuals or
the Catholic Church.)

Every former Soviet state has experienced significant corruption.  Ukraine does more so today than Russia (but less than most Central Asian countries)  because its elite were largely moved to Moscow to serve the Soviet state, and they did not return.  Ukraine has been a pawn in a game between Russia and the U.S.  The CIA practically chose Yushchenko, who is poorly equipped for the job, as its "Orange Revolution" candidate.  Under Kuchma, Ukraine's GDP was growing, and while there was corruption, it may have changed once economic stability had been achieved.  Unfortunately, we will never know.  Ukraine today is what Russia was in the 1990's.  

Russia still has a lot of corruption, but less because when the FSB took power, they recognized they could leave things as they were, and let 140 million people live like beasts, or try to change things.  Say what you will about the FSB "coup", they have at least tackled corruption, and are slowly chipping away.

[Shadow]

That is apples and oranges.  If you are referring to non FSU Eastern Europe, remember that those countries did not endure 70 plus years of communism.  

A country like Bulgaria seems to do rather well.
But they never depicted themselves as victims (except forthat Turkish thingy ) to blame others for their own problems, or tried to let others solve their problems.

Democratic countries choose the leaders they deserve

[Boethius]

A country like Bulgaria seems to do rather well.
But they never depicted themselves as victims (except forthat Turkish thingy ) to blame others for their own problems, or tried to let others solve their problems.

Democratic countries choose the leaders they deserve

Bulgaria's corruption is a serious concern to the EU.

You have leapt to the conclusion that Ukraine is a democratic country.  Yes, it has free elections.  But when all the organs of government, from top to bottom, are corrupt, how "democratic" can a country be?  When politicians are not working for the people (which is what "demos" and "kratos" is about), it becomes is a matter of choosing which evil will hurt you, the voter, less.

Further, Ukraine has indeed been a pawn.  That is its history, and it has continued to today.  Just this week, Putin "warned" the US to keep out of Russia's relationship with Ukraine.

[Ronnie]

Natasha,

As you know, there were a group of men who, at this hour, 65 years ago on the beaches of Normandy, France, changed the future of the world and made it possible for you and all of us to live in freedom.

Many of those men paid the ulitmate price on our behalf.   

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDEeO57PpLE&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFmDErnW-14&feature=related[/youtube]

[Boethius]

No offense to Hollywood, but here is a more historically accurate account -

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/dday/prelude.aspx

[Shadow]

Bulgaria's corruption is a serious concern to the EU.

You have leapt to the conclusion that Ukraine is a democratic country.  Yes, it has free elections.  But when all the organs of government, from top to bottom, are corrupt, how "democratic" can a country be?  When politicians are not working for the people (which is what "demos" and "kratos" is about), it becomes is a matter of choosing which evil will hurt you, the voter, less.

Further, Ukraine has indeed been a pawn.  That is its history, and it has continued to today.  Just this week, Putin "warned" the US to keep out of Russia's relationship with Ukraine.

Actually democracy in its pure form is that a country is ruled by the people, not by politicians who work for the people. The idea that politicians acually represent the people is a common misconception about democracy. Politicians are representatives chosen by their party, and are to defend the ideas and concepts of that party.
In an election the peope are supposed to weigh the ideas and concepts of the various political parties, and choose those that fits closest to theirs.
Unfortunately instead of a contest between ideas, elections are becoming a circus where the best performing artists (or those with the most expensive show) win the 'prize'.

[Ronnie]

 Paying attention to our older and wiser cousins in some parts of Europe would be a good place to start.

It seems our friend Sculpto got it right.  Europe is showing greater wisdom of late.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5536JH20090604