Ukraine vs. Russia, Pros and Cons?

[Ronnie]

Keep in mind, that you will not marry a "typical" woman wherever you find her, so looking at generalizations will not be helpful.   The difficulty that some of the ladies here don't seem to understand is that there are some practical considerations.  You have limited time, I presume.  I agree with what has been said about short trips.  You could get lucky and find that needle in a haystack on your first visit.  It's happened and there are some on this board who are testament of it.

However, you can improve the chances of meeting the right mate if you can spend a long time in country.  If you are in a high demand field of work, consider taking a leave of absence for a year or just save up your money, resign your job, and find another one later.  If you have a work from home type of profession, you can consider that you can keep an income stream even from overseas.

Back the question, logistically, Ukraine is more compact and less time and money is spent moving between two or three cities.  In my two years I met ladies in eight cities in Ukraine and two in Russia.   Here are my general impressions of each (others' mileage may vary):

Moscow: Hardworking, a bit stressed, have a pretty clear idea what they want and if you're not it, you won't need to quess.

St Petersburg:  Seemed less sincere than Moscow.. a lot of pros/golddiggers.  Met a great gal there but something wasn't right so I moved on (I later found out what).  

Vinnitsa.. A poor city, uninteresting to visit, uninteresting women so I cut my visit short

Kiyv..Only St Petersburg is better as a city.

Poltava.  Easily the most beautiful women in the FSU and that is also the reputation it has.  My theory is that because this is where Swedish King Charles XII met his Waterloo 300 years ago, that many of his captured men stayed on.  More natural blondes than anywhere in the FSU from my observations.  Again, just a theory and not well researched at that.  But there seem to be a higher percentage of attractive women than any other city.

Odesa - My first WOVO.  A compact fun city with everything within close walking distance.  The nearly a dozen women I dated there were highly emotional.  I wasn't looking for a drama queen.

Zaporizhiya.  Ancestoral home of the Cossacks.  Polluted air. A short drive to Dnipro.  Ladies similar to Dnipro.  Down to earth.

Melitopol.  No. Poor, polluted, drab in the exteme.  Maybe try Mariupol.

Mykolayiv (Nikolaev): Many attractive ladies, second only to Poltava.  Odesites look down there noses at them - don't know why.  Large Arab population (students I think).

Dnipropetrovsk.  This is where I met my wife.  I can say no more about the women.  The city has everything you may want in Park Shevchenko - great place to meet and spend time.  Good restaurants.

Now, here's my assessment for the OP.  My bet is that each of these cities and others unnamed is right now home to a lady that could be ideal for you and you for her.  Each also has someone who will be your worst nightmare.  

You're not on a shopping trip (that's just nutty), you are on a very serious and important quest.  For your sake and the sake of the lady who is waiting, good planning, commitment and efficient use of your time and resources will improve the odds of success.

[Sculpto]

Ronnie.. good post and advice

[Ooooops]

But seriously though.. I am really confused by this looking down on Ukraine thing.  ... can anyone inform us?

I can inform you that in my Universe anybody who looks down at somebody just because of their race, nationality and such are not worth serious consideration at all.   

[Doll]

St Petersburg:  Seemed less sincere than Moscow.. a lot of pros/golddiggers.

Vinnitsa.. A poor city, uninteresting to visit, uninteresting women

Poltava.  Easily the most beautiful women in the FSU and that is also the reputation it has.

You're not on a shopping trip

 
 

[Doll]

I can inform you that in my Universe anybody who looks down at somebody just because of their race, nationality and such are not worth serious consideration at all.   

I don't think RW look down at UW a all. If some do- what does it matter in this regard?

[Bored1]

I born in Odessa before moved to Moscow and have female family still there.

I am not drama queen and not my friends there also.  I am like Moscow woman and if you not what I look for then you not what I look for.

What do RW think of AM - do they generalize?

Man from Texas - ignorant fool?  Man from New York to busy?  Man from San Fransico - weird?  Man from LA all ego?  Man from Chicargo criminal?

You will not find what look for by not counting people because of where they live.  If you do you deserve only to find second best.

I read AM look for RW for finding soul mate as they claim.  God is where you find him and not always where you look.  The same process should apply if you feel you must have a RW.  Why you must have RW is still something I do not understand at all.

[Ronnie]

  Why you must have RW is still something I do not understand at all.

You don't understand it because your premise is false.  No one here has said he "must have" RW.  We have opened up our horizons to include RW (most western men will not do that, BTW).  We come here (RWG) to better understand the pros and cons of undertaking a possible relationship with them. 

Perhaps the best part of this site is that RW themselves come here (each for their own reasons) and demonstrate the broad cross section of women one can expect to find in the FSU.  There are all kinds examples evidenced here - from the conceited, ignorant and insolent to the gracious, thoughtful and caring.

[Bored1]

Perhaps the best part of this site is that RW themselves come here (each for their own reasons) and demonstrate the broad cross section of women one can expect to find in the FSU.  There are all kinds examples evidenced here - from the conceited, ignorant and insolent to the gracious, thoughtful and caring.

And this is different from womans in China or USA or Canada or Italy?

I think all such womans can be found in all country - Like mans of this types also.

Do AM need to read a forum to know that this is so?  I think they more intelligent than to need forum to tell them this.

[groovlstk]

And this is different from womans in China or USA or Canada or Italy?

I think all such womans can be found in all country - Like mans of this types also.

Do AM need to read a forum to know that this is so?  I think they more intelligent than to need forum to tell them this.

Bored, most guys look to Russia or Ukraine simply because they have more options there to date women who are much more beautiful and younger than women in their own countries. Most guys will do headstands to avoid admitting this and prefer to pretend that travelling 5000 miles to meet a woman is no different than going on an ordinary date

[Bored1]

So it is beauty and youth.

This is I understand.  For a mans it is natural.  For the male of any animal in most way.

I do not understand coming all the way to find a soul mate when you come from country with huge population of womans with values same as you own person.

[Faux Pas]

So it is beauty and youth.

This is I understand.  For a mans it is natural.  For the male of any animal in most way.

I do not understand coming all the way to find a soul mate when you come from country with huge population of womans with values same as you own person.

There are many different reasons, beauty and youth are but two if them. Most of what groov stated is indeed true. But there are other factors as well but one of the most prevalent is WM can do better in the FSU in the overall quality of woman (this includes beauty, youth, education, cultured) than in their own countries. How much sense does it make to court a women 1000's of miles away when you can find what they are looking for at home? It doesn't. It makes no sense. They can't find them at home, so they travel. The heart wants, what the heart wants, would you agree?

[Bored1]

Yes - what heart wants the heart wants.  I agree.

Heart often wants person with nothing you list and goes with beauty and youth and ignore intelligence, culture education.

I do not think USA has no small number of educate and intelligent womans.  You would not say your mother or sister were not educated or culture.  If all AM think this of mother and sister it has many intelligent womans yes? 

I understand the mans wanting beauty and youth as it is natural male animal.

I think all womans like honest.  I read this forum it seems the honest is in beauty and youth but not many are honest to say it.

It is nature.  It is process.  The heart takes persons where the heart wants and does not read a list. 

It is good when the process last your life but it is human condition against natural animal male wants so it is not always so.

[HiTech]

They can't find them at home, so they travel. The heart wants, what the heart wants, would you agree?

This is the best description I have heard, It does not contain the specifics, because those are different for almost all men who endeavor in this for real.

It perfectly fits why I went. And was the answerer I gave to many AW as to why, when they said I should look at home. I would simply give them the following.

1. I want to meet a woman who wants to have children.
2. I want to meet a woman who does not already have any children.
3. I want to meet a woman who has not been married before.
4. I want to meet a woman who I am attracted to.
5. I want to meet a woman who's primary motivation is not wealth.

If you know any woman who meet all of these criteria, and would also be interested in dating me (I was 46 when I began this adventure) please introduce me. Because it would absolutely be easier than trying to find someone over seas.

Many times they would first try respond with, why will you not consider someone with children.
My answer was simply Why should I , I have never been married or had children before.

I never met a woman who could come up with a valid answer of why I should only look in the USA after those reasons.

HiTech

[Faux Pas]

Yes - what heart wants the heart wants.  I agree.

Heart often wants person with nothing you list and goes with beauty and youth and ignore intelligence, culture education.

That list is as long as the reasons men and women seek each other. There are many who seek nothing but youth and beauty. Some seek nothing but beauty. I am sure others seek a sex slave or a housekeeper. As groov said many won't admit it but they seek young women. There are many, many different reasons and there's no way you could classify them all under one or a couple of headings.

I do not think USA has no small number of educate and intelligent womans.  You would not say your mother or sister were not educated or culture.  If all AM think this of mother and sister it has many intelligent womans yes? 

Yes there is a large number of attractive, intelligent and educated women in US. Prior to my visiting Russia, I dated them exclusively (even some not so intelligent) and married one. They exist and they are here. Some guys preach about them being "too fat" "too much baggage""too materialistic" yadda, yadda, yadda. Those guys will probably never find a woman in Russia that will stay with them for very long. Most of us do not hate AM nor do we think they are ugly, stupid or fat. We are just not finding what our heart wants in our country for a plethora of reasons that will probably never make sense to you.

Bored, the world is a much smaller place than it was just 10-15 years ago. There is another reason WM go abroad and that is because, there are women there. Sometimes it really is that simple too.

I understand the mans wanting beauty and youth as it is natural male animal.

True for some, very untrue for others

I think all womans like honest.  I read this forum it seems the honest is in beauty and youth but not many are honest to say it.

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here. But I'll take a crap shoot anyway. All women do not like or respect honesty. Neither do all men. Rather many like and respect "what they want, need or want to hear. People are different and people are different everywhere. It knows no international borders. Yes there are some men who want youth and beauty as top priority. There are some women who want power and money as top priority

It is nature.  It is process.  The heart takes persons where the heart wants and does not read a list.

 For most of us this is true, men and women the world over.

It is good when the process last your life but it is human condition against natural animal male wants so it is not always so.

Life lasting is what most of us seek, men and women. Unfortunately, nobody has a crystal ball and can see into the future. So we takes the risks and gamble 

[Faux Pas]

This is the best description I have heard, It does not contain the specifics, because those are different for almost all men who endeavor in this for real.

It perfectly fits why I went. And was the answerer I gave to many AW as to why, when they said I should look at home. I would simply give them the following.

1. I want to meet a woman who wants to have children.
2. I want to meet a woman who does not already have any children.
3. I want to meet a woman who has not been married before.
4. I want to meet a woman who I am attracted to.
5. I want to meet a woman who's primary motivation is not wealth.

If you know any woman who meet all of these criteria, and would also be interested in dating me (I was 46 when I began this adventure) please introduce me. Because it would absolutely be easier than trying to find someone over seas.

Many times they would first try respond with, why will you not consider someone with children.
My answer was simply Why should I , I have never been married or had children before.

I never met a woman who could come up with a valid answer of why I should only look in the USA after those reasons.

HiTech

I'm with you Hi-tech. Not on your criterion but that you wanted what you wanted and unwilling to settle. I wouldn't have thought so 4 years ago because then I'd never thought I'd go to Russia but, I know now that if I didn't find her in Russia I wouldn't have had any qualms about going in a rocketship to another planet if there was a reasonable chance I could find her there.
 

[groovlstk]

I understand the mans wanting beauty and youth as it is natural male animal.

I think all womans like honest.  I read this forum it seems the honest is in beauty and youth but not many are honest to say it.

It's a complex question but I believe for most men beauty and youth are very high up on their list of what they dream of in a wife - often so high that all other considerations are unimportant, at least until they have to live with these women full time.  Bottom line is that it's possible to find a younger, more beautiful woman in Russia or Ukraine. Most pursued such women in their home countries but were consistently rejected, so they turn to poor countries as their economic advantage and offer of a stable life gives them much wider opportunity.

[Bored1]

groovlstk you say what I am trying too.

It is what I think.

I am not needing money or to go to USA, I am fortunate not like many.

But if AM mans want marry me and it is because he thinks I beauty and healthy that is ok.  I think though he will not be honest and say this alone.  He will say many things which he think I want to hear but are not true but he think I must hear them to validate his position to me.

This is not right and the basis of bad things.

I am not stupid to think he loves my intelligence if he not spend many months with me in person, who would he know this otherwise?  I am also not stupid to think he does not see my feminine and love my culture more than the body it comes inside.

Nature dictate that sex attraction is the first attraction and other attraction follow 99% of times.

It is this subject which is seem not allowed to be talked about and yet all know it true.  It is this that is dishonest and clear from what I read.

[Faux Pas]

groovlstk you say what I am trying too.

It is what I think.

I am not needing money or to go to USA, I am fortunate not like many.

But if AM mans want marry me and it is because he thinks I beauty and healthy that is ok.  I think though he will not be honest and say this alone.  He will say many things which he think I want to hear but are not true but he think I must hear them to validate his position to me.

This is not right and the basis of bad things.

I am not stupid to think he loves my intelligence if he not spend many months with me in person, who would he know this otherwise?  I am also not stupid to think he does not see my feminine and love my culture more than the body it comes inside.

Nature dictate that sex attraction is the first attraction and other attraction follow 99% of times.

It is this subject which is seem not allowed to be talked about and yet all know it true.  It is this that is dishonest and clear from what I read.

Bored I will say something here some on the forum will largely disagree with and by all means you are welcome to believe whom you wish. There is very little difference if any at all, in AM and RM. By the same token there is very little difference in RW and AW. The differences are not in the people themselves but in the selections and/or options available to them. If you stay in Russia you will likely only meet AM who have some advantages of traveling to Russia. Many AM have neither the financial resources or the patients to seek a lady in Russia. In that selection of AM there are all types personalities and they are there with many different criteria of finding a lady.

Believe it or not, but not all AM go to Russia seeking a much younger or a much beautiful woman than they could find in their own country. Make no mistake, as many do go for that purpose alone. Many are incapable of finding a woman anywhere, in any country.

AW are very spoiled in mate selection much like are RM. There are many theories as to the why's and where fore's this is true but to AM and RW, that is of little consequence.  You sound to me to be very intelligent but also very naive which  equates to very young. I do not mean this in any negative light but, if you'll only believe a man, no matter Russian or American can only love you for your youth and beauty, you will likely be in for many disappointments in your life. 

[Sculpto]

  Man from San Fransico - weird? 

Hey!

[Sculpto]

 huge population of womans with values same as you own person.

LOL.. HUGE is a key word here.  Yes there are a lot of HUGE women in the USA. 

Values?  Come on now.. the reality is men and women in this country might as well be from different planets.. the value systems are completely alienated from each other.  There might be some commonalities in cultural norms, depending on which socio/economic class you are from, and don't forget to include national origin regardless of how many generations since the immigrants originally arrived.  USA is the exact opposite of a homogenous society and therefore very difficult to label or categorize. 

And to put it into numbers.. I am a Jew of Ukrainian descent.  Family came 3 and 4 generations ago.  I live in a metro area of 6-7 million people.  Within that metro there are probably no more than 40,000 people with a similiar background.  If I was to limit myself to the women with similiar background I would have a maximum of a couple of thousand to find my match with.  Highly unlikely odds.  The same goes for anyone of any other ethnicity and family history.  In this area only the Chinese have a relatively large pool to choose from and even then lots of young Chinese American men are going back to Taiwan, Hong Kong or China to find a "traditional" wife because even in that community the disconnect between men and women due to their American education is distinct and men with any self respect just don't want to deal with the BS and male emasculation so common in this society.

[Sculpto]

This is the best description I have heard, It does not contain the specifics, because those are different for almost all men who endeavor in this for real.

It perfectly fits why I went. And was the answerer I gave to many AW as to why, when they said I should look at home. I would simply give them the following.

1. I want to meet a woman who wants to have children.
2. I want to meet a woman who does not already have any children.
3. I want to meet a woman who has not been married before.
4. I want to meet a woman who I am attracted to.
5. I want to meet a woman who's primary motivation is not wealth.

If you know any woman who meet all of these criteria, and would also be interested in dating me (I was 46 when I began this adventure) please introduce me. Because it would absolutely be easier than trying to find someone over seas.

Many times they would first try respond with, why will you not consider someone with children.
My answer was simply Why should I , I have never been married or had children before.

I never met a woman who could come up with a valid answer of why I should only look in the USA after those reasons.

HiTech

You are my Hero HiTech.. no BS truthful answers 99% o us can identify with.  Awesome post!

[Sculpto]

It's a complex question but I believe for most men beauty and youth are very high up on their list of what they dream of in a wife - often so high that all other considerations are unimportant, at least until they have to live with these women full time.  Bottom line is that it's possible to find a younger, more beautiful woman in Russia or Ukraine. Most pursued such women in their home countries but were consistently rejected, so they turn to poor countries as their economic advantage and offer of a stable life gives them much wider opportunity.

I dated a lot of younger women here in the US.  What I couldn't deal with was the emptiness in their souls.  Russian women are far more soulful.. in general anyway.  For me it had absolutely nothing to do with the economics of a certain place.  If that were a consideration for me as I said earlier int he thread.. I definitely would not have chosen the FSU.  For me the FSU is in regards to economics is like they know how the west lives and they want it very much... whereas compared to say Mexico most people there could care less.  In my case, again as I have said before, it would have been a lot easier for me to find a woman in Mexico.. however, there is an educational component missing plus it is very difficult to find women who haven't had kids.  I went that route before and will never do it again.

[Sculpto]

groovlstk you say what I am trying too.

It is what I think.

I am not needing money or to go to USA, I am fortunate not like many.

But if AM mans want marry me and it is because he thinks I beauty and healthy that is ok.  I think though he will not be honest and say this alone.  He will say many things which he think I want to hear but are not true but he think I must hear them to validate his position to me.

This is not right and the basis of bad things.

I am not stupid to think he loves my intelligence if he not spend many months with me in person, who would he know this otherwise?  I am also not stupid to think he does not see my feminine and love my culture more than the body it comes inside.

Nature dictate that sex attraction is the first attraction and other attraction follow 99% of times.

It is this subject which is seem not allowed to be talked about and yet all know it true.  It is this that is dishonest and clear from what I read.

Bored.. you are almost right.  But, at least for me.. beauty alone won't do it.  We all get old and lose our beauty.. if there is nothing to talk about when the desire for sex has faded.. then what was the point in getting married int he first place?

[groovlstk]

For me it had absolutely nothing to do with the economics of a certain place.  If that were a consideration for me as I said earlier int he thread..

Sculpto, why didn't you pursue a woman in France or Italy or Spain, then?

You may not be consciously aware of it, but the economics of Ukraine and Russia are a major factor in why women there are eager to meet Western men.

[Ronnie]

Groovstk doesn't speak to my situation though I don't doubt he is correct in some situations.  My FSU wife is not nearly as physically attractive as the my former wife (AW) from whom I made the difficult decision to part.  Nor is she as attractive as another AW that sought a relationship with me after my divorce.   

However, I felt that our FSUW/AM relationship had great potential after working out some initial kinks.  Happily, that has been the case.