Married RW community dynamics

[Farrel]

Oh well, I guess I'm just more priviledged than you were to know such people

I  don't know how long you've lived in Russia, but I doubt there are/were  people who didn't care about status. Whether you want it or not, you  have to, that's the only way to live in Russia.. [/quote]    dostogirl
It's a huge over-generalization on your part to be saying so in regard  of all of Russia. I've been living here almost a year now. The type of  women who speculate on their status (or their husbands' money) are  usually those that have little else to show off or those that are very  susceptible to their group's influence. Working or otherwise successful  women put a lot less emphasis on shopping for 'status' items.   That doesn't imply they don't buy good and expensive things for  themselves - diamonds never cease to be a girl's best friends!! But  they do so for their own pleasure, not to please the others 'whether they want  it or not'.

[dostogirl]

But  they do so for their own pleasure, not to please the others 'whether they want  it or not'.

That's what they say.. I do believe that they may buy diamonds for pleasure as well as to show it to others..

[Farrel]

dostogirl
Where did you learn to be so cynical anyway, here or there?

[dostogirl]

dostogirl
Where did you learn to be so cynical anyway, here or there?

I was always like that

[KenC]

Farrel,

For the most part, I have found Russians to be very concious of their public image.  It seems to be very important to them as to how the public perceives them.  The original post here is just an extreme example of this public perception theme.

KenC

[babe_in_rusland]

My own experience is quite different from that described in the  original post.  My RW wife has a large circle of friends in our  community and there does not seem to be any hierarchy based on wealth,  automobile, whatever.  Maybe it's because we're West  Coasters.  The group does seem to have a somewhat higher status in  that they view people who own their own businesses with great respect,  followed by people who are self-employed, and least being ordinary wage  slaves.  I have noticed that they place a great deal of attention  on whoever has had a baby recently, and there is much fawning over the  children.

Also, and this may be just my own experience, I have noticed that RW  imitate  mannerisms of their husbands more than they ever would  acknowledge.   I experienced this in quite a funny way a  while ago.  I use an expression in reference to our city garbage  service.  Occasionally, I call them the "garbage nazis" because  there are  ordinances in effect that allow our garbage pick-up men  to sift our bags of trash and if any recyclables are found in the trash  (paper, glass, etc.), they write you a "ticket" that is punishable by a  fine.  On a couple of occasions I've accidentally overheard my  wife using this same expression in conversations with her friends.

[NDOC]

Thinking back on the time I spent living for a few years in the FSU/Poland, power relationships among women were always a little strange.  I lived at the medical institute in Lublin, Poland (and yes I know Polish women and Russian women are two different things) and the most powerful actor in my every day life wasn't the medical director, it was the night caretaker. There was one television in the facility and it was in a locked cabinet.  If she (the caretaker) liked you that day, she'd let doctors watch the television at night after she finished with Dynasty (the big show in the day...later it was Santa Barbara).  If the doctors pissed her off (like not keeping their rooms tidy) she locked the television away and informed on you to the Director the next day.  You could snivel all you wanted to the Director, he wasn't going to override her authority over that television.

I bring this up only because the smallest things (like watching the television) became power contests.  If a female had control over an asset, they guarded like it was the King's treasure.  The hospital had good medical equipment, but the ladies were so afraid someone would break it (or so they said) that the best equipment was rarely used.

The medical director also had status items (good suits, a luxury car, 4 secretaries, and two drivers), so status wasn't unique to women, but the men exercised power with more restraint than the women who could be alsolutely ruthless, but in more passive agressive ways.

I'm not head-shrinker but I wonder if some strange need to build a power base gets unleashed when they get out of submissive roles (assuming they were not empowered to the same degree back home). Natalie is a sweetheart 99% of the time, but you try to touch her spending money you better not be a bleeder. 

Of course YMMV.

[Son of Clyde]

I have noticed that whenever my wife meets another Russian woman, they exchange phone numbers. They speak on the phone as the best of friends but it is superficial. They are only associates from the same part of the globe. It is very strange she forms a temporary bond with the woman but it as if the woman is just like a person you pass in the hall every day at work.

[Admin]

[user=130]Son of Clyde[/user] wrote:

I have noticed that whenever my wife meets another Russian woman, they exchange phone numbers. They speak on the phone as the best of friends but it is superficial. They are only associates from the same part of the globe. It is very strange she forms a temporary bond with the woman but it as if the woman is just like a person you pass in the hall every day at work.

Scott Peck (of "The Road Less Travelled" fame - recently deceased) wrote extensively on this topic in one of his better books on the subject of "Community." He used, as one of his characterizations, the concept of "hoosiers" - and how some people from Indiana will automatically and immediately gravitate towards others from the same state just because they are "hoosiers" - or even more interesting are those who attended a particular college/university - take Notre Dame, as a good example, and their self-esteem collectively seems to rise and fall on the strength of their football (American football, for out international crowd) team's record. Neither of these (hoosier or Notre Dame graduate) are any real indication of people having something significant to bond them together. It is a Grand Falloon (or Great Lie). In fact, people from the same family - cousins or siblings - can have so little in common as adults, that they share no real sense of 'community' - as defined by Peck.

In other words - the mere sharing of language skills and common cultural experiences, is hardly the basis for anything more than the most superficial of relations - BUT - it is a normal human characteristic that we search for traits in common and connections to other people.

FWIW

- Dan

[BC]

For the first year or so my wife didn't seem to want contact at all with RU speaking folks living around here even when I prodded her.  We only started building friendships with mixed IT/FSU couples only after she felt comfortable in her new environment.

btw all the IT/FSU couples we know are IT guys that met FSU gals in while working there, no MOB couples at all.

[Son of Clyde]

It's probably no different than people who attend a Star Trek or Doctor Who convention.

The only thing in common is that they all enjoy the same program.

[al-c]

First of all, I am at the correspondence and phone call stage (my third try, and yes I have been there twice and got one failed engagement for my trouble).

I make it clear in my very first letter that I am only a middle class blue collar worker and that it would be impossible for me to support an entire family on one paycheck.  I tell her flat out that she will need to work for the rest of her life, just like I am working.

Not surprisingly, this results in fewer than 1 out of 5 writing back to me, but why would I want the other 4, when lack of millionaire status is such a large turn off to them?

 

[KenC]

Dan,

I don't know about it being a "great lie."  I met a guy from Alaska in the Moscow airport.  I had been so starved for anything American, I almost jumped him for his American newspaper!  Any way, we hit it off and shared a rather good time on our layover in Amsterdam (from what I remember).  We kept in touch for a number of years after.

It is kind of funny, because I have no problem approaching strangers if I know we have something in common, but Lena is usually not interested in starting a conversation with fellow Russians.

KenC

[Admin]

Dan,

I don't know about it being a "great lie." I met a guy from Alaska in the Moscow airport. I had been so starved for anything American, I almost jumped him for his American newspaper! Any way, we hit it off and shared a rather good time on our layover in Amsterdam (from what I remember). We kept in touch for a number of years after.

It is kind of funny, because I have no problem approaching strangers if I know we have something in common, but Lena is usually not interested in starting a conversation with fellow Russians.

KenC

Hi Ken,

The "Great Lie" is in the belief that merely having something cultural or environmental in common, is the same thing as having a deep bond.

I agree - the seedbed for those deep bonds often lies in finding that you have something in common with another - and that can be attendance at the same school, growing up in the same state, or being married to a woman who shares a language and culture with another's wife - all of which can provide a starting point - but it is only that at first.

- Dan

[BC]

It is kind of funny, because I have no problem approaching strangers if I know we have something in common, but Lena is usually not interested in starting a conversation with fellow Russians.

KenC

Quite similar reactions here. We saw quite a few RU folks in the US and on flights back and forth to IT this year.  Other than superficial hello's not much conversation at all.  There seems to be something cultural about it but haven't figured it out...  In public quite reserved when meeting strangers even from the same country.  In private or when introduced by a mutual friend it's a different story alltogether.

[Son of Clyde]

My reason for posting my remarks is that I am as guilty as any naive AM of trying to find Russian "friends" for my wife.

 She still limits her phone calls to her real family and friends and calls the others infrequently.

[jb]

Clyde,

If I were you I wouldn't try to find Russian speaking friends for your  wife.  Allowing her to associate with fellow Russian speakers will  stunt her language growth and retard her adaptation to her new  enviorment.  Better to let her make friends with the locals.

[catzenmouse]

Elena never really cared much for the local FSUW she's met here. Most she's found to be either too stuck on themselves and their imagined status or too needy. She has met a couple over the year she has been here that she has a good connection with but still considers the people back home to be her best friends.

11 month wedding anniversary today for us. We're going to the figure skating show tonight. Shhhhh, she doesn't know where we are going.

Ken

[BC]

Regarding stunted learning of english.. there's nothing worse than RU TV.  We get something like 11 RU and Ukraine channels here (yeah my goof!).  It's also becoming expensive as I am going to buy myself another TV and sat antenna for xmas so I can watch the programs I like.

Has improved my Russian though!

[RacerX]

Over the years, I've gone back and forth 'bout the idea of Russia vs. American friends, whether it was a good idea for her to watch the RU channels and so forth.  One day it occured to me that it wasn't my decision to make, but more so, it wasn't even an area that I should be messing with - I trust her judgment and maturity and she knows far better than me what mix of friends/tv/etc are best for her. YMMV,

[KenC]

On Russian TV- My thoughts are that you shouldn't rush to get it immediately upon your wife's arrival.  Especially if she has any challanges with English.  The TV will become a crutch and slow the development of her English skills.  We have it now and it is a little touch of home for Lena.

On disappearing English skills- Lena can switch back and forth from Russian to English and even combine them without missing a beat usually.  It is only after a few weeks in Russia does her English suffer temporarily.  But then, she also struggles a little with her Russian when she first arrives home to visit too.

KenC

[dostogirl]

I am extremely against watching Russian TV esp. when RWs do not speak English. Besides, Russian TV sucks, most programs are American with Russian translation anyway. Those that are originally Russian are not interesting at all, a lot of them made by "request" of the government trying to achieve one or another political goal.

[KenC]

Dostogirl,

My wife calls it Jewish American TV presented in Russian.

KenC

[dostogirl]

Dostogirl,

My wife calls it Jewish American TV presented in Russian.

KenC

 The first time I watched Jerry Springer in Russian translation, it was something...

[RacerX]

Russian TV sucks.

That could probably be equally said for 95% of American TV