Bad Boy Syndrome vs. Nice Guys from the West

[Gator]

Two questions to RW:

1.  Do you believe that many of the RW looking for a foreign man first had a bad experience with a RM “bad boy?”   

2.  What are the characteristics of a “nice man” who would probably disappoint his RW wife, particularly a RW who was attracted to "bad boys"?

Every RW is different, so please forgive my broad brush generalizations inherent in asking these questions. 

What prompted my questions - a post made by Jooky in a pissing contest thread and probably not read by RW members.

If I am reading Jooky’s post correctly, he says that “many” RW looking for a foreign husband have the bad boy syndrome.  IMO this is comparable to the fairy tale of “Beauty and the Beast” - RW are attracted to the beast and hope to bring out the “prince” that is within him. 

Failing to find the prince in their RM bad boy, some RW turn to foreign men because they have a reputation for being “'good nice guy.”  The comparable fairy tale could be the kissing of a “frog” and turning him into a “prince.”  Jooky claims that most of these RW have been disappointed with their “nice” man. 

He says that the happily married men at RWD and other forums actually aren’t so nice.  They are “argumentative, stubborn and confrontational.”

IMO this is consistent with the general opinion that RW like strong men and do not respect a man child.

[Gator]

Here is Jooky’s post.  Jooky has been dating RW for years and I  consider him an intelligent observer of the MOB venture.

 

Groov,

I absolutely agree, and I think many women know that they are likely to face this type of compromise when they first step into an agency. Actually some have told me exactly that: they agree to marry with the hope that will fall in love, but know they're not quite there yet.

Here's another observation. Many Russian women sign up with an agency because they want to marry a 'good man' unlike their 'bad' Russian men. However, you've got to take into account that these same Russian women are used to falling in love with these 'bad' men. It's the type of women that are attracted to 'bad' men that find their local world full of only these types. All the nice guys around are uninteresting and virtually invisible. It's called 'bad boy syndrome'.

I've seen it happen often where a woman with 'bad boy syndrome' will make a rational choice to pursue and marry a 'good nice guy'. It's the right decision for her, but deep inside she is still missing that exciting 'bad boy' attraction.  Sometimes it works out and love does grow, but more often it leads to disaster.

Over the years of reading these forums I've noticed that many of the happily married guys aren't too nice at all. They're argumentative, stubborn and confrontational. I think that's part of why they succeed while other nicer men fall flat on their face. There's still enough 'bad' excitement in them to develop attraction.

[AnastassiaAsh]

First of all I personally think this is not a Russian thing as the same situation is present with women in the US, Canada and other countries. Very often a woman is attracted to a man who resembles her father, and again in my opinion in Russia men in general are not a good marriage material to put it mildly. Environment can also affect her thinking and preference, she is used to it and her self-esteem is totally absent.

There are good women who miraculously found good men in Russia. There are bad women who are looking for bad men (but deep inside I don't think they would want to spend the rest of their lives with them, just an attraction thing), and there are good women who suffered a lot from bad men and saw an opportunity to find a really nice guy abroad.

What ever 'bad' qualities AM from this board or in the US possess, these things are absolutely nothing in comparison to bad traits of Russian men. Yes, they may be 'argumentative, stubborn or confrontational', but in an American way which is totally different than in a Russian way, I am sure you know what i mean. In general, at least i would like to believe so, these traits help them achieve heights that they achieved here in the US, professionally, intellectually... most of them didn't turn into barbarian pigs who can abuse their women in every way possible and on top of everything can go away from it. It's simply not in this culture. Plus the laws help too. Of course there are exceptions and another board that we know of is a proof of that, but still I think this is the minority.

2.  What are the characteristics of a “nice man” who would probably disappoint his RW wife, particularly a RW who was attracted to "bad boys"?

It's hard to say for me, but maybe exactly all the good 'sane' qualities that are necessary for a good stable marriage such as being predictable, rational, unspoiled, saves more than spends, not rough, loyal, works a lot...

[Misha]

He says that the happily married men at RWD and other forums actually aren’t so nice.  They are “argumentative, stubborn and confrontational.”

Perhaps, one of the reason some of the married men are argumentative is the fact that we are actually married to women that we love and respect. It does get annoying to continually hear RW to be continually berated by men who chased fantasies, deluded themselves and then blame all RW for their foolish actions  It is hard not to take it personally when you are actually married to a RW 

As for women attracted to bad boys, the easy solution is find a woman who isn't. Some women can actually be attracted to intelligent men, men who are kind. However, this does not mean that you should be passive. You do have to get out there and meet women and be smart enough to figure out which women are real, and which should be avoided like the plague.

[pitbull]

Two questions to RW:

1.  Do you believe that many of the RW looking for a foreign man first had a bad experience with a RM “bad boy?”   

2.  What are the characteristics of a “nice man” who would probably disappoint his RW wife, particularly a RW who was attracted to "bad boys"?

1. No, I don't. There could be some such women among those who seek a foreign husband, but personally I don't know any. I believe that most FSUW looking for a foreign husband are looking to fall in love and create a happy family. Just like most AW, FW, LV and any other W who is looking.

2. Cannot answer, since I don't buy the whole "strong man" stance. From experience, those guys who talk about being a "strong man" and are preoccupied with exhibiting such "characteristics" of a strong man as "argumentative, stubborn and confrontational" have insecurities and complexes and are often bad in bed. Sort of like "big truck - little d..k" thing.  . It's actually childish and looks especially funny in men over 40.

On the other hand, I find it incredibly attractive when a man is so confident that he is not afraid of showing emotions, being sensitive, friendly, moral and yes, nice. Somehow they tend to be smart, great in bed, and successful. And don't try to establish their "strong man-liness" at the expense of mistreating others and their wives, unlike the the first type often do.

[GoodOlBoy]

Perhaps, one of the reason some of the married men are argumentative is the fact that we are actually married to women that we love and respect. It does get annoying to continually hear RW to be continually berated by men who chased fantasies, deluded themselves and then blame all RW for their foolish actions  It is hard not to take it personally when you are actually married to a RW 

Sorry Gator... a little 

Misha...it (blaming RW) gets to me also.

If you don't mind, I would also like to add to your list of blame: "Agency Owners" and just about everything/everybody else under the stars that a "loser" can point his finger at (except himself). 


GOB


BTW....I hate snivelers/handwringers (and so does my wife).

[Sculpto]

FWIW I think AWs have the same "badboy" complex in many cases. 

I know in my own personal experience when I used to "play" the badboy, I got a lot more action than I have since I CHOSE to be, believe it or not, more adult in my approach and treatment of women. 

I think there is a genetic pre-disposition in women to be attracted to powerful men.  How else can you explain why celebrities are able to bed so many women?  Thats what we can view in public, but, the same can be said in other realms.  Alpha men get more action, regardless of the origin of the lady.

Now, intellectualizing the situation, many people are able to go beyond their primal instincts and find partners that are compatible on many other levels than the above.  That goes for women and men.

BTW, I thought pitbull's post was hilarious and very true.  I would only add that the smarter the person is, the better they are in bed, usually, assuming no major hangups or inhibitions.

[Blues Fairy]

2.  What are the characteristics of a “nice man” who would probably disappoint his RW wife, particularly a RW who was attracted to "bad boys"?

IMO this is comparable to the fairy tale of “Beauty and the Beast” - RW are attracted to the beast and hope to bring out the “prince” that is within him.  

It's actually not a fairy tale but a sad and very typical psychological problem in many women who have had screwed-up relationships with their fathers.  Having lived with an emotionally unavailable father and repeatedly suffered painful defeat of her attempts to win his love and attention, such a woman would carry this anxiety into adulthood and try again and again to play out the same scenario with emotionally unavailable (married, commitment phobic, abusive etc) men.  Conquering and "changing" such a man becomes a fixation, a way to "conquer" her father and psychologically compensate for the defeat and hurt suffered from him.  But in reality it's a destructive and vicious circle that is very hard to break; hence the unusually strong attachment to the bad boy.  The worse the bad boy behaves the fiercer the attachment and the attempts to reform him.  

What kind of nice man would disappoint such a woman?  Pretty much any kind, unless she has already broken her fixation and worked out her issues, by herself or with the help of a specialist.  

[BC]

Ok, I'll put on a skirt for a few mins to blend in with the other TV's around here.. 

In addition to Blue's thoughts, men AND women seem to be attracted more to what they can't have than what they can have.

'Mr. Nice' may be too bland, even if better in the long run.. -after all what fun is fishing if they just jump in your lap?

[Sculpto]

Blues did add a very accurate component that I hadn't really considered. 

I would also ask about the Russian/Ukrainian fairy tales.  I have a read a few on the advice of my friend in Odessa.  I thought Disney was ridiculous, but, I did notice the common thread of peasant girl whisked away by handsome prince.

How much does this impact the mentality, if at all?

[groovlstk]

Beyond the bad boy cliches, I think the real element that western guys have to consider is that Russian men, in general, are tougher and more stoic. This is part of the strong man cliche and I think a lot of Western guys misinterpret it to mean they have to assert themselves as the boss in any relationship w/a Russian woman, and that's just plain dumb.

[Daveman]

Sort of like "big truck - little d..k" thing.  .

I knew there was a reason I had to have a big truck... i just couldn't quite find it...  but try not to let that secret get out to far.. I;d hate to have it permeate the region where there's still a chance of Big Truck Naivete'

[JR]

How you train is how you'll fight...

The Army hammered that into us. It was true then and it is true now. It has always been true.

How you trained (interacted with your father, mother, siblings and friends) is how you'll fight (interact with your husband, children, etc).

If you grew up with Bad Boys or Bad Girls that is who you will gravitate towards in your relations. It is difficult to break that and because you're not wired for anything else you'll not be satisfied with until you are with one, bemoaning it all the while.

[kievstar]

One non negotiable I had with any girl was a great relationship with her parents . If she had divorced parents, I moved on.  If she had a problem or was not close with one of her parents, I moved on.  If I did not get along with her parents, I moved on.  However this is not a question to ask but you can tell by observing her behavior on the phone with her parents.  RW call their parents a lot when their close. 

[Lily]

Two questions to RW:

1.  Do you believe that many of the RW looking for a foreign man first had a bad experience with a RM “bad boy?”   

2.  What are the characteristics of a “nice man” who would probably disappoint his RW wife, particularly a RW who was attracted to "bad boys"?

Every RW is different, so please forgive my broad brush generalizations inherent in asking these questions. 

 

First of all, to approach the issue of nice vs. bad guy I would point out, in rough terms, that Russia is a patriarchal society while the West is civilized society. Civilization rewards its stronger members, and at the same time supports its weaker members. In other words, civilization is where the weak lives and may be even thrives. Civilization is good for relatively weaker people.  Patriarchality is where the strong wins but where the weak dies. This is IMHO a determination of Russian mentality vs. Western mentality, in very a general terms.

Consequently, women in Russia may prefer 'bad' boys because the 'bad' features often mean a disapproval of society. Bad boys do not afraid being bad, that's why they are perceived as strong. It takes guts to disagree with some society norms, indeed.

I did not find a specification on what exactly constitutes 'being bad', in this thread. May I presume that 'bad' means being bold, decisive, not willing to compromise. All there things are IMHO positive in a person. I also agree with Sculpto about the alpha man behavior.

On what may repulse a RW as a part of being a 'nice guy'...tough question. Probably exhibiting something undecisive, sort of shyness, passivity...

[elliott]

It's actually not a fairy tale but a sad and very typical psychological problem in many women who have had screwed-up relationships with their fathers.  Having lived with an emotionally unavailable father and repeatedly suffered painful defeat of her attempts to win his love and attention, such a woman would carry this anxiety into adulthood and try again and again to play out the same scenario with emotionally unavailable (married, commitment phobic, abusive etc) men.  Conquering and "changing" such a man becomes a fixation, a way to "conquer" her father and psychologically compensate for the defeat and hurt suffered from him.  But in reality it's a destructive and vicious circle that is very hard to break; hence the unusually strong attachment to the bad boy.  The worse the bad boy behaves the fiercer the attachment and the attempts to reform him.

Exactly!  Perfectly said.  This is basic Psychology.  Pick up any psychology book and the exact same thing will be written in it somewhere.  Especially notable and interesting is the "destructive circle" concept.  Psychology is fun! 

[Aloe]

i dont like bad boys, what am i, a masochist? Why would i wanna be with someone who hurts me (psychologically)? My husband is a very nice guy, i love that. I always looked for a nice guy, and he is the nicest guy i know! But there is a fine line between being nice and being a push-over, he is not a push-over. Many guys confuse being a push-over with being nice. When a man has no will, its very unattractive

[BC]

 

[Aloe]

why would you want a girl anyway, girls are evil

[Gator]

For you Aloe

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lj9lbFHb5o[/youtube]

[Gator]

Interesting comments from the women.  Somewhat diverse yet all reasonable.  To echo Lily, I am not sure what Jooky meant by “bad boy.”

Webster defines “bad boy” as a man who flouts convention.  I agree with that, yet there is more.

Why do many women find bad boys attractive?  Bad boys have daring, intensity, and energy.  They are interesting in an adventurous way, even exciting.  In other words, they certainly do not bore women. 

There is something else that RW find appealing.  With the collapse of the Soviet culture, stability disappeared and was replaced by something where the “bad boy” attitude would fare better than professional education and adherence to rules.   

With the bad boy persona come some traits not so attractive.  Bad boys are independent and unpredictable, aloof if not egotistical.  A woman does not know what to expect from them, and it could be negative (unreliable, manipulative, and infidelity).  Of most importance, a woman can not be sure that such a man will be there for her when she needs him.  The last point is my wife’s experience with her ex-, and I heard the same from other RW.

[OlgaH]

I find the article 'Why Some Good Girls Prefer Bad Guys' to be interesting and true.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_6_55/ai_61619021/

[Caddydaddy]

Watching the little movie made me laugh hearty...
Strange, why do I understand it so good? 
Seems it applies very well to some of the WW, not so sure if also to RW...

Quite a time I wondered what a "Nice Guy from the West" could be. A feminist? A softie? A strange creature which appears visual to be a man but acts with a behavior in a range from pastor to crybaby? I don't know...

I also wonder which kind of WM are attracted to RW? Must be a special breed... 

Caddydaddy

[Gator]

Quite a time I wondered what a "Nice Guy from the West" could be. A feminist? A softie? A strange creature which appears visual to be a man but acts with a behavior in a range from pastor to crybaby? I don't know...

Personally, I feel that a nice man can still be “strong.” 

The RW respect for “strong” men is not physical IMO.   The preference comes from the confidence and security that a strong man imparts to a RW – a feeling that everything will be okay.  Such is more important in Russia than in the West considering the history of both instability and gender inequality.  Of course, the strong man persona works only if the RW feels that the man will not betray her.

The opposite of a strong man is the “man child,” a term told to my wife and me by a RW explaining why she did not marry a certain AM who adored her. He was too indecisive, too accommodating, too easy.  Jooky touched on this when closing his post.

YMMV

I also wonder which kind of WM are attracted to RW? Must be a special breed... 

All types based on what I see here at RWD.  I have met  AM husbands of RW, and they are all types of men.  Could it be because RW differ remarkably among themselves?!

[Fashionista]

Oh, c'mon, people, let's stop pretending that we don't know the truth: most of the so called "good guys" are butt ugly and overweight. And THAT is the main reason why women ignore them.