Nice American Man wondering about his relationship with Ukraine woman

[GQBlues]

You're starting to unravel at the seams.

1. My last post was NOT intended for you. Your quote appeared to illustrate the chain of specific subject exchanges regarding dorms, Akademgorodg; in which this heel nibbler, in his haste to prove me silly - typed a snide remark which really only portrayed his clear lacked of reading comprehension. He wasn't engaging in any course of discussion other than to antagonize me. Insecure people do that a lot.

2. I do get it - you apparently do not. All I did was intentionally watch you vassilate between information you feel an authority to. 90% of this, 10% of that, most of those yada yada yada when all I've done so far is repeat what I earlier stated on the thread unretracted, which was...

There's always the need for a secondary person to help them along. Husbands, babushkas, lover, etc...I never saw, met, or even heard of a RW in Russia who purposely left home at a young age, got a job, got an apartment, education, and became fully independent while at the same time make something of herself

Why? because it rarely happens. Which you obviously did not agree with.

3. Mies, a woman from Ukraine - who FWIW, I tend to believe would have a deeper understanding of Russian culture than all of us non-Russian farts combined ( sorry, yes including you), yet you're prepared to dismiss her knowldege of the subject at hand because it ran counter to what you're trying to feed us here. How can she possibly know Russian life and culture being an Ukrainian more than you? After all, heck how many years since you've been going in and out of Russia, 6 years? While she was only born in Ukraine when it was still part of the greater Soviet state. How dare her think she knows more about RUssia than you.

You have this searing need to be Mr FSU so much that on another thread an actual Russian woman reminded YOU that YOU are actually arguing with her about HER own language and culture. LOL. Dude, wassupwitdat?.

4. So 90% of Russian woman YOU associate with, and therefore transcends to the entire women population, are *fully independent* women who *completely supported themselves* during their days in the Universities with *absolutely NO support system* from anyone whatsoever. I'm happy for you Jooky, That's one FSU tidbit however this boy ain't buying.

Why? First off, it's BS. Secondly, Russia like the rest of the FSU nations I came to know have a very deep sense of support systems within their ranks. That may well have been a product of the Soviet days where reliance with one another was above and foremost. Of course, that would be my theory as I wasn't there during those times. So I understood why, because of dire lack of options and opportunities, Russians have a profound sense of support systems within the family. It became second nature to help each other out. Completely reversal from our American culture. In our culture, while support systems do in fact exist as well, it is not as intense as it is in Russia because societal conditions differ greatly than in Russia. FWIW, we wean our young to a point then nurture and encourage them to take wings. Russians, it seems to me, embraces and relishes supporting each other for as long as it takes. We are a bit different.

Unfortunately, in Russia and in many ways, its society were not as affording for it's people to exercise such liberties. THAT is where I was leading to Russians having a sense of reliance, dependency/expectations (?) of support from those close to them. They get it from family, kins, relatives, spouses, Intimate or not-so intimate friends, etc, etc, etc...They had to depend on each other, on one another. Period. Under this societal conditions, it was the only, best way to enrich their lives and struggles. Each one became provider to another. The elder provided for their young. For generations, that became a classic conditioned trait within their culture.

Were there exceptions to this? I'm sure there is/are. I simply can't tell you how may because I have never seen, met, or heard of any young RW (Russian) who were at a solitary situation where they utterly and completely supported themselves through life and education WITHOUT anyone's help. To me, there was always a need or dependency, and a provision, of a secondary person/s to help them along.

Then you came along and took exception to this and further imply that there must be roughly 90% of these types of women in Russia because 90% of the women you ran around with are. Nevski Russkya.

Where was I going with this? I wanted to start a discussion that touched on this very subject. Provisions, providers, dependency, conditioning....Partly because of the hype that RWs are more mature than their western sisters, and partly because I wanted to expand the discussion both KenC and Neo started about their personal experiences and the concept of Princess Complex. PC is not necessarily known too much in FSU at least not as much as in the western hemisphere. I thought maybe to incite these folks to dive into the classic conditioning of Russia's mainsteam of provisions, providers, dependency, support, etc, etc, etc.. and how much of it translates unto all of our individual relationships and collective observation. When does this conditioned dependency/support system become instead an expectation with Russians (RWs in our case) when they begin to actually immerse within our western society and lifestyle and in all our intimate individual relationships.

Then there was also a snippet of the growing independence of our female population and those of women in FSU. I made a remark why can't FSUW first make something of themselves BEFORE engaging themslevs to married life just like their western sisters generally have been doing. It was not going to be a she good she bad discussion, but maybe would have been at least an interesting discussion to me.

I even made a remarked to Gator about getting myself captivated with the woman in my Russian instead of trying to figure out the RUssian in my gal. There is a point in that statement. Men in this adventure often time speak of their wives and girlfriends as being Russian/Ukrainian instead of being 'wife/woman' first. A lot of what I've seen happened to many couples breaking up is because the men are so caught up trying to understand the Russian/Ukrainian in their women when they should've instead taken the time to understand the women in those Russian/Ukrainian instead.

That, too, would have been a more interesting subject to discuss. You see, I felt these were all intertwined with the silly 'provider' 'support system' subject which you soooooo objected to. Sh!t happens dude.

But you simply had to be heard BIG GUY.

Unfortunately, I've come to expect that when you fail to support your points, your argument devolves into useless personal attacks. I could see it when you tried to drag my personal life into this thread and it just gets sillier.

Considering you started to make implications that I may be surrounding myself with undesirables, which included my wife, you sure have the balls to make claims I was starting to hurt your eFeelings, man. Better get laid soon Mr FSU. You're starting to see dead people.

[Jooky]

One last post since it doesn't seem like you paid attention to what I just said.

therefore transcends to the entire women population.

I never said or implied this, as I've already clarified above. Read what I just wrote above again.

Even though I gave you several examples in my PM to you, you still haven't heard of any Russian women who made a life for themselves on their own.  

That's where the 'discussion' fails. You twist and ignore what's being said, attack the posters not just the message and ramble on.

Families depending upon one another during tough times does not equal women always needing a provider and being incapable of making something of themselves. In fact, I think earning a degree is an accomplishment in itself. Making something of yourself and your life isn't always financial.

Do you remember what I argued with Mies about in the other thread? She said 'hot tub' wasn't part of the conversation. I said it was. Who was right? Hint: I was. That had nothing to do with the Russian language. I had no objection to the translation given there. You bring that up here, out of context in another attempt to discredit.

Where in this thread do I dismiss what Mies had to say? I said I had nothing to argue with her about. I think it's interesting actually that now that I've looked at statistics there's quite a difference between age at first marriage between Russia and Ukraine. I also find her comments about parental pressure against casual sex and toward marriage interesting as I haven't noticed this in Russia at all, and I doubt you have. The bridal business is much more active in Ukraine, to the extent that it looks like AFA dropped Russia entirely from next year's romance tour schedule and increased their events in Ukraine. This could lead to an interesting discourse about the difference between Russia and Ukraine.

Better get laid soon Mr FSU. You're starting to see dead people

Typical. More personal insults since you fail at making your point. And hurting my E-Feelings? Good luck on that. I'm not the one resorting to silly name calling. Seems you're offended because you think I implied you associate with undesirables. If you took something I said this way, I apologize. It wasn't meant that way. I said something about us meeting different types of women and you find what you seek, because you're meeting dependent women and I'm not. You taking this to mean 'undesirables' reveals your thoughts on these women, not mine, and that's the negative tone I detected in your original statements.

He wasn't engaging in any course of discussion other than to antagonize me. Insecure people do that a lot.

And your Chihuahua comments, insults, and ludicrous questions like 'what's the name of the dorm' aren't meant to antagonize? By your own definition, you're the one here who's insecure.

Do you understand what I've written above, and that the career minded women I know in Moscow are no different than the career minded women you know in L.A. or do you still think that I'm saying all Russian women are like the ones I've met?

[BrightDawn]

OK, I've read enough about who's more independent. Women are women, men are men. People are people. Given a certain set of circumstances a group of people with adapt to those circumstances to optimize survival given their cultural inheritance. I don't think there is a "better" here. The cultures are different. This leads to differing behavior. One is no better than another, except when judged by one's own "cultural mindset".

Edit: Sorry JollyR started a thread that picks up where I was trying to go, so I;m moving my post over to his thread....

[Misha]

Russians have a profound sense of support systems within the family. It became second nature to help each other out. Completely reversal from our American culture. In our culture, while support systems do in fact exist as well, it is not as intense as it is in Russia because societal conditions differ greatly than in Russia. FWIW, we wean our young to a point then nurture and encourage them to take wings. Russians, it seems to me, embraces and relishes supporting each other for as long as it takes. We are a bit different.

Yes, but you ignore the fact that Russians also have ideals about love as well. When young women are seeking a life partner, the quality of the young man as a "provider" is very rarely the sole criteria or even the most important criteria. The young woman will more than likely be guided by ideals of romantic love. In most cases, she will know absolutely nothing nothing about his abilities as a provider: she will likely meet him when both are students struggling to pass exams and do their coursework. At that point, it will be hard to say how successful he will be in the future. Her parents are more likely the ones who will worry about his qualities as a future husband, she will be motivated by the fact that she loves him and that she wants to be with the man that she loves. She will also expect to work and contribute to the financial well-being of the family after her marriage. Yes, once married, they are more likely to live with one set of parents, but this still does not mean that she will not be marrying for love.

[mies]

Yes, but earlier in his postings, he claims that somehow all women, or at least most of them, are out looking solely for a provider.

I do not know what GQBlues meant exactly. However, I agree that most women are looking for a man who is capable in providing.
It is not the same as saying that women are not independent nor that they are looking only for money.
I suggest that we go from the opposite. Whom women are not looking for.
Are women looking for a sperm donor whose presence isn't noticeable in any other way? most women want more.
Are women looking for man who is incapable to support them while they are pregnant and have baby? No, most women know that they will need help at least during several months-few years. Either from parents or from a man. Help from father of a child is most natural.
Are women looking for Alfons who will not be useful in any way but sex and sweet words, and will be spending woman's money? No. Most women aren't interested in such men. Man should be able either to provide money, or to contribute in kind - by being a "house-husband" - doing the house duties and looking after the children. Most men aren't interested in the role of house-husband. Then he should be able to be a provider.

So, are women looking for man who isnt' a provider? In most cases they aren't interested in men who are incapable of being a provider. And such - I agree with GQBlues. Having said this - I do not believe that most women are opportunistic, highly dependent on men, and only interested in money. 

[Misha]

Are women looking for Alfons who will not be useful in any way but sex and sweet words, and will be spending woman's money? No. Most women aren't interested in such men.

Will the young woman who is 18 or 20 marrying her classmate be worried about him being an "Alfons" spending her money? I doubt it. I still say that at this stage in her life, a young woman will be motivated by love. The 30 or 40-year-old woman, who is divorced with a child looking for a new husband, is much more likely to be worried about marrying an "Alfons" IMHO. For the 20-year-old in love, it is her mother who will be more likely worried about his abilities to provide or be a good father in the future.

So, are women looking for man who isnt' a provider? In most cases they aren't interested in men who are incapable of being a provider. And such - I agree with GQBlues.

Will most women want to marry a man who states that he will stay at home and drink beer while she goes off and work? I doubt it too. Sure, if you rephrase what GQ posts, I can maybe agree with it too.

However, do you agree with GQ that:

For RW, there seem to be a constant search and need for the proverbial Provider. It's almost cultish.

This is what GQ wrote, yet you support what GQ is posting while contradicting him by then writing:

Having said this - I do not believe that most women are opportunistic, highly dependent on men, and only interested in money.

You can't have it both ways. Either RW are almost cultish in their search for a provider (aka only interested in money) or they aren't.

[mies]

Will the young woman who is 18 or 20 marrying her classmate be worried about him being an "Alfons" spending her money? I doubt it. I still say that at this stage in her life, a young woman will be motivated by love.

boys and girls usually date within their own social circle. in this case - 20yo guy is more or less known how much minimum he can be earning in future. Let's say - if I am a girl in professional school, and I date a guy who is just out of army and signed up for "guard" job for a company - I more or less know how much he can make on that job. Or if a guy is also student in professional school for "tailor".
If I am studying biology - i approximately know how much myself and my classmates will be making shall we pursue our major. For some professions the range of expected salary is narrow, for some (finance, economics, law) - range is very wide. For arts - expected salaries are very volatile.
In all my honesty - I never saw girls whose parents are bankers dating a guy from car service. These girls just do not meet these guys, and these guys do not come to the pool to choose the love from. One girl that I know married a driver of her father. Her dad was a big shot, driver was a fun guy, street-smart, but not promising. Girl's dad helped them immigrate to the West, and guy is still working as a driver, she works as a nurse, they have good comfortable life. All friends of the family never viewed it as love - they viewed the step as stupidity, capriciousness, and mauvais ton of a girl. She was easy-going and light-headed, and father had three other children to take care of, so he did all he could to help the new couple to have good life.

[mies]

You can't have it both ways. Either RW are almost cultish in their search for a provider (aka only interested in money) or they aren't.

Misha, we aren't talking about Romeo and Juliet who fell in love as teenagers and died together.
Most people fell in love at least once during their lifetime. People fell in love with someone they see around, someone they meet.
If I am not meeting Fortune-50 CEOs  or Hollywood stars, or russian millionaires, or foreign ambassadors on daily basis - the chances are slim that I will fall in love with either of them, and even smaller (zero, to be precise) chances that they will fall in love with me - because they never saw me, and if they saw me - they never paid attention to me. Their lives, and my life - do not overlap. In a similar manner - my life do not overlap with many other people - streetbeggars, homeless people, blue-collar employees of factories, construction workers, and many other. The people whom i see in my daily routine, people with whom I have conversations - are living about same way as I live. If I fell in love with either of them - it is quite safe to say that these people are reasonably good providers from my point of view - that is they have about same level of income as I do. For rich female heiress - these people will never look like good providers, and female rich heiress of any nationality will unlikely marry a guy whose lifestyle is similar to mine. Ability to be a provider - is relative. As nearly everything in this world. There is no way you can twist this into dichotomous choice: "interested only in money" or "are not interested in money".  

[Misha]

boys and girls usually date within their own social circle. in this case - 20yo guy is more or less known how much minimum he can be earning in future.

But, it is still no guarantee. He may be lazy, he may flunk out, he may not get a good job, he may decide that the hates his job and wants to become a janitor... Sure, the odds are better but if you are truly "cultish" in your pursuit of a man solely on the grounds of his being a more capable provider, then you should be looking for somebody who already has a proven track record, and preferably for someone from a higher social circle. If you truly follow GQ's logic, the young woman should not be pursuing a young man in her social circle, but instead should be chasing a much older man who has already proven that he will be capable of being a "provider." Why marry a mere student in economics when you can try and marry the director of a company  :evil:

[Misha]

Misha, we aren't talking about Romeo and Juliet who fell in love as teenagers and died together.
Most people fell in love at least once during their lifetime. People fell in love with someone they see around, someone they meet.

I agree, but it still does not matter. The main motivation is not "he will be a good provider" but "I love him."

There is no way you can twist this into dichotomous choice: "interested only in money" or "are not interested in money".  

Again, I did not say that women will sail the seven seas to find love, but that young women will invariably marry for love and not simply because of some alleged cultish behavior whereby their main motivation is finding a provider.

You are evading the question though. Do you or do you not agree with GQ's statements about women and their cultish behavior and the fact that women do not seek to succeed on their own but need a "provider" and seek out a "provider"?

[mies]

But, it is still no guarantee.

Misha, you are reading in my lines what you want to see. I said earlier that women are looking for someone who is capable to be a provider. I did not wrote "willing to be a provider" or "a guaranteed provider"  

Why marry a mere student in economics when you can try and marry the director of a company  :evil:

 
1) because director of the company is already married, with several lovers.
2) because director of the company does not want this particular female student - neither for lover, nor for marriage, for quick meeting - maybe
3) despite (1) and (2) - what do you think hundreds of girls in large cities are doing - those who are investing tons in their appearances, beauty salons, and plastic surgeries? do you think these women torturing their bodies in pursuit of a love of young students?  

Again, I did not say that women will sail the seven seas to find love, but that young women will invariably marry for love and not simply because of some alleged cultish behavior whereby their main motivation is finding a provider.

you know what i noticed - that many people who reached at least something in life, with age become more cynical, or more rational if you will. And more suspicious too. When they start dating - they question themselves "am i loved or are my money loved". Some go even further and develop ridiculous schemes - playing the role of the popper to see whether significant other will still love them. And why is that? Because somehow they think that love should only love poor, or maybe that true love only happens between the poor. Or something like that. And this is silly and reveals narcissism combined with insecurities. All people can fall in love. It is possible to love rich person, it is possible to love poor person. 

You are evading the question though. Do you or do you not agree with GQ's statements about women and their cultish behavior and the fact that women do not seek to succeed on their own but need a "provider" and seek out a "provider"?

i am not avoiding any questions. I have already explained my viewpoint on this issue in earlier posts.

[mies]

I agree, but it still does not matter. The main motivation is not "he will be a good provider" but "I love him."

Misha, what is your favorite food and favorite drink?

[Misha]

1) because director of the company is already married, with several lovers.

So, there is competition, why should this detract her  :evil:

2) because director of the company does not want this particular female student - neither for lover, nor for marriage, for quick meeting - maybe

There are other directors in other companies  

3) despite (1) and (2) - what do you think hundreds of girls in large cities are doing - those who are investing tons in their appearances, beauty salons, and plastic surgeries? do you think these women torturing their bodies in pursuit of a love of young students? 

The fact of the matter is that most women will marry young men who are peers. Sure, they will do a lot to be attractive and will try to attract the attention to the men that are attractive to them, but their motivation is still not solely one of financial gain. Yes, there are some women who are focused solely on finding the best "provider" but neither you nor GQ have proven to me that all or even most women are pursuing men based solely on their ability to provide financially.

[Misha]

Misha, what is your favorite food and favorite drink?

Why? Do you want to invite me for supper? My wife may object LOL 

[mies]

Why? Do you want to invite me for supper? My wife may object LOL  

i am not sure i know what you mean by this

[mies]

The fact of the matter is that most women will marry young men who are peers. Sure, they will do a lot to be attractive and will try to attract the attention to the men that are attractive to them, but their motivation is still not solely one of financial gain.

Misha, I give up. Of course this isn't sole motivation. Do you think young woman cannot fall in love with kid of rich parents?

[Gator]

Yes, there are some women who are focused solely on finding the best "provider" but neither you nor GQ have proven to me that all or even most women are pursuing men based solely on their ability to provide financially.

Almost everyone would surely disagree with this assertion.  I spent some time with a lot of RW and not one was like this. 

Is this really the opinion of GQ and Mies?  Misha, I have only skimmed this thread so I don't know if this is the central issue; however, I do know that you frequently write in "black and white" terms as Mies pointed out:

Misha...There is no way you can twist this into dichotomous choice: "interested only in money" or "are not interested in money".   

Misha, the world is not "black and white," certainly not the issue of seeking a provider.  A RW choosing a man based solely on her perception of his ability to be a good provider is as stupid as a man choosing a RW based solely on her beauty.   Some men may be that stupid, but RW are smarter than that.

A couple of facts are ignored in this debate:

1.   Most RW before marriage will not be able to comprehend in quantitative terms what a man is capable of providing nor how this could change in the future.
2.   Independent of a man's wealth, many women are attracted to the personality and other traits that enabled a man to become financially successful.

I stated before that being perceived as a good provider is no guarantee that a man will get to first base with a sincere RW.  However, if he is not a capable provider, he will not advance past first base IMO.  There are plenty of struggling RM to choose from without having to leave her family, friends and country.

[Gator]

Misha, what is your favorite food and favorite drink?

Can I play?

[mies]

Can I play?

sure

[Misha]

Misha, I give up. Of course this isn't sole motivation. Do you think young woman cannot fall in love with kid of rich parents?

Yes, and that is where we agree. If you put the children of rich parents together, invariably, some/most will fall in love with each other. Likewise, the children of rich parents in the USA going to ivy league schools are likely to fall in love with other children of rich parents going to the same Ivy League schools. I just object to the idea that somehow RW are worse, that they are more interested or solely interested in financial gain when choosing a husband. My argument, and you seem to agree, is that young women are likely to fall in love with young men around them and marry those men. They do not display "cultish" behavior seeking solely a good "provider." Sure, some will, but IMHO, most won't. 

[Misha]

Misha, the world is not "black and white," certainly not the issue of seeking a provider. 

Yes, and that is where I object to GQ's characterization of RW and their "cultish" behavior. If I remember correctly, you also posted that you did not agree with his characterization.

A couple of facts are ignored in this debate:

1.   Most RW before marriage will not be able to comprehend in quantitative terms what a man is capable of providing nor how this could change in the future.
2.   Independent of a man's wealth, many women are attracted to the personality and other traits that enabled a man to become financially successful.

Agree on point 1 and agree on point 2, adding that most RW married men long before they became successful. Medvedev's wife, for example, had no way of knowing that he would one day become president of Russia, and the same is true for Putin's wife 

[Gator]

I asked if I could answer your question.

sure

Thanks.  You stirred my interest as I want to know where this goes.

Favorite food - many, yet to name one:  fresh soft-shell crabs sautéed in iron skillet with garlic butter (simple but devine, and devour everything but the eyes and gills). 

Favorite drink - not with the crabs but my favorite cocktail is a mojito if made in the traditional way (i. e., Hemingway, Havana).

Okay, what is your prediction?

[mies]

I asked if I could answer your question.


Thanks.  You stirred my interest as I want to know where this goes.

Favorite food - many, yet to name one:  fresh soft-shell crabs sautéed in iron skillet with garlic butter (simple but devine, and devour everything but the eyes and gills).  

Favorite drink - not with the crabs but my favorite cocktail is a mojito if made in the traditional way (i. e., Hemingway, Havana).

Okay, what is your prediction?

i have not yet come up with idea where it goes :-) need more time  

[Misha]

Okay, what is your prediction?

Prediction of what?

[kens1958]

Ok ... To everyone who said I was doging there questions....
Now I will answer your qusetions...
I sent this nice girl cloths, a computer, money..... over $20,000 I spent on her.... She never asked for anything... I just wanted to give her things.... the best cell phone... ect....

Well tonight I contacted a man that she said was just a friend on skype.... and I acted like I had just met this girl.
This man went on to tell me how the girl had come to Odessa to meet him and stay in his apartment after they had coresponded for a month on the internet... This meeting hapened in end of August ... and I had met her in July...
I belive she even used the monie I sent her to go and visit this man... she even helped pay for the apartment.
on the second night she had s!x with him and then went back to her town of Nikolaev..... after 3 days she came back to him and again they enjoyed s!x...
I am to go to Nikoliaev next week and we were to go to Turkey.....
The man she had relations with ws only 26 and she is 23... he was not an old dumb a!! of 50 like I am....
so all of you were right.... thank you for the advice.....
And most importantly .... I will say I do not blame the girl..... I am the one that knew better......