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[Gator]

Substance and style. 

I agree with the substance of what Blues Fairy wrote, particularly that DJ should not pursue RW. 

The problem is that BF delivered her message in direct style that could be interpreted as “Snap Out of It,” something that many of us married to RW can appreciate.  The “Snap Out of It” style does not work with depressed people because they can not.

A few of you are criticizing BluesFairy.  Did BF really do anything wrong here with DJ?  Not in my opinion.  She is not his family, his friend, his kindred Goth.  DJ got the message from BF that he should have received by coming to RWD – namely, RW and the process of marrying a RW is not for DJ.  BF could have expressed some sympathy before cutting DJ loose, yet it was important that DJ receive the message and not sympathy.

[GoodOlBoy]

Next Pedophile? GoodOlBoy, can you name all previous pedophiles on RWD or you are just good in wagging your tongue making your social misfitting jokes?

I am glad Gator just showed up.

Actually, a few months back we had a "pedophile" here on RWD. 

I cannot find his posts (maybe Dan deleted them?).

Anyway, Gator confronted him/it before anybody else (unnamed) could come to his "rescue" (on his or her white horse). 


GOB


BTW....I don't consider social misfit's anything to joke about!


Note to Dan....No Sarcasm.

[Gator]

With all due respect, GOB, pedophilia and manic depression are not in the same boat.  We don't publicize the names and addresses of bipolar people nor do we require that they stay away from schools.  Nevertheless, I found DJ's closing comment as vicious and all have ignored it:

 

I hope you all are forced one day into the reality that is mine and live it for real.

Does anyone who says such deserve our sympathy?  Do cancer victims wish that healthy people get cancer?  Having experienced it firsthand during 20+ years of marriage to a clinically depressed woman, I find such a wish as vicious.

Yet it also shows the type of reaction that depressed people have to  “snap out of it” comments.  My frustration with my illogical ex-wife caused me to say, "Snap out of it."  It hindered her therapy.  

Over time, my ex-wife’s psychiatrist decided I was depressed, so to save the marriage I went to a psychiatrist and started taking meds.  After two months of walking around like a goofy zombie, he took me off of the meds and said my symptoms were not clinical depression but those of someone with a depressed spouse.  He said, “Let her go.”  And that was that.  

He also stated that my ex-wife’s treatment was flawed.  For sure she was drowning; however, instead of teaching her to swim, her psychiatrist gave her a life preserver (meds) and took her out of the deep end (both my younger son and I were sources of stress).  

When I started dating RW, the subject of my ex-wife and her depression would come up.  The RW I met had no knowledge of clinical depression and imbalanced brain chemistry.  Seeing a psychiatrist was unheard of.  

One would think that the incidence of clinical depression in the FSU would be the same as in America.  If so, there are a lot of people in the FSU with untreated psychological conditions.

[Blues Fairy]

The problem is that BF delivered her message in direct style that could be interpreted as “Snap Out of It,” something that many of us married to RW can appreciate.  The “Snap Out of It” style does not work with depressed people because they can not.

Actually I did not tell him to snap out of it or suck it up; I advised him not to drag the girl across the pond UNLESS he plans to snap out (which he obviously does not).  Big difference.  

And I certainly expected the liberal crowd to arrive on their white rhinos and cry out in his defense, with a bunch of feel-good justifications of his self-centered whining.  Once again, I would ask them, would they be as tolerant of his emotional outbursts if they were his potential employer conducting an interview?  

[GoodOlBoy]

Sorry to hear about this personal tragedy Gator, really.

I don't think I could ever post this kind of sensitive information on RWD (or anywhere else).

You mentioned your child (son).

I cannot imagine the kind of problems this caused for his "healthy" development into adulthood?


GOB

[UTRO]

This is incorrect. The OP didn't come here asking for help with his depression. Gothman arrived here specifically seeking encouragement and validation for a relationship that long ago crossed the border into fantasyland. He wanted people to tell him the agency that has been bilking him for 2 years has his best interests at heart, and that his GF is true to him and never let him contact her outside the agency because she doesn't know anything about this email and internet thing.

I do agree with what you say above Groove..... and.....
The problem, as I see it, is that DJ felt pressured to explain to us his very personal mental health issues, the more he was questioned by everyone. Why? He felt backed into a corner and tried to defend himself, to explain his actions and why he believes in Alina. He thought that by being open and honest it would gain him some support and understanding here. Instead it backfired on him and showed a weakness in his nature. Whenever men publicly bare their heart or soul, it shows weakness and red flags are raised. Thus this thread quickly crossed over and became a judgement about his choices in life and his emotional and mental stability. Not about his relationship, agency woes, or future trip.
He has issues and is naive about FSU dating, but maybe this trip is exactly what he needs? As DJ explains, this Alina, if she is 100% legit, knows all about his problems and is ready to take them on with him. He doesn't appear to have been misleading her in any way. Now, if she were not a Goth I would worry for her. But she is a Goth and not just a Goth teenager in angst, so who are we to judge?

[Gator]

Sorry to hear about this personal tragedy Gator, really.

Thanks, yet you went through something worse.  We move on with our lives, and our RW wives have helped.

I cannot imagine the kind of problems this caused for his "healthy" development into adulthood?

My two sons did okay even though the family had its dysfunctional days.  My concern is that clinical depression can be inherited.

[Gator]

As DJ explains, this Alina, if she is 100% legit, knows all about his problems and is ready to take them on with him.

I doubt any 21-yo UW knows what is involved with his mental condition.  In coming to America, she would have her own adjustment issues to deal with.  To say that she can "take on" manic depression is a stretch.  As I said earlier my son's bipolar friend is happily married with children, yet I don't think the two decided to marry over the Internet without meeting each other. 

Yes, I am being facetious, but it would take a long time to determine if she was the right woman for him.  And if she were not, could DJ deal with such failure?  He does not need added risk.

[GoodOlBoy]

The problem, as I see it, is that DJ felt pressured to explain to us his very personal mental health issues, the more he was questioned by everyone.

Hey Utrobina.

This is where I disagree completely with you.

If a man is truly coming to RWD for "expert" advice on finding, courting and marrying an FSU woman, then he has found the right place.

There is absolutely NO need in getting into your "personal" life (especially if it is bizarre/strange).

The OP could have come here without displaying his behaviors/troubles like a "BADGE OF HONOR", BUT instead, I believe he did it on purpose to extract the kind of reaction that he got here.

Some gay people do the same thing (throw it in your face) whether you (or your children) want to see it or not.

Sorry, but NOBODY "forced" him to post all of the sordid details of his life.

I would never ask anybody here on RWD are you a "Goth" or "mentally ill"...would you??

It would never dawn on me to do so either.

After all, we are here to discuss FSUW!!


GOB

[UTRO]

I doubt any 21-yo UW knows what is involved with his mental condition.  In coming to America, she would have her own adjustment issues to deal with.  To say that she can "take on" manic depression is a stretch.  As I said earlier my son's bipolar friend is happily married with children, yet I don't think the two decided to marry over the Internet without meeting each other. 

Yes, I am being facetious, but it would take a long time to determine if she was the right woman for him.  And if she were not, could DJ deal with such failure?  He does not need added risk.

I think we're getting ahead of ourselves Gator. It's a trip to meet a woman, or not. It's far from marriage. He most likely will never get to that point. The majority don't, do they? Let DJ go through the motions. You did and I did and as you say, "We move on with our lives, and our RW wives have helped."
No matter what transpired here he has learned a lot by chatting with members in private.

[acrzybear]

.  I expressed the concern for his poor girlfriend

Doesn't the term girlfriend  (or boyfriend) actually require two people to meet?

 Whatever Goths emotional/psychological issues are, the bottom line is that he needs to get "his house" in order before inviting any other folks into it. The only Goths I've dealt with were kids rebeling against their parents or authority, so I can't say much about the "lifestyle"

[OlgaH]

And I certainly expected the liberal crowd to arrive on their white rhinos and cry out in his defense, with a bunch of feel-good justifications of his self-centered whining.  Once again, I would ask them, would they be as tolerant of his emotional outbursts if they were his potential employer conducting an interview?  

Blues Fairy, I would rather stay in the liberal crowd as you say with all your other epithets, feel free to add some more.  

About tolerance. One of our friend is going through a sever depression that causes mistakes in her job that are financially costly for a firm where she works and we have contract with that firm and we also feel impact of her mistakes. Guess what, the firm's boss and employers have so much patience and understanding to help her. For you they are just "a bunch of feel-good justifications of his self-centered whining" but for us they are our friends who have elementary humaneness.

There is genetic influence in developing bipolar disorder.  Just to think about. And not all people with bipolar disorder able to overcome it as you husband did.  

Among many things, some suicidal youths experience family trouble, which leads them, to doubt their self-worth and make them feel unwanted, superfluous, and misunderstood. According to one study, 90 percent of suicidal teenagers believed their families did not understand them. Young people reported that when they tried to tell their parents about their feelings of unhappiness or failure, their mother and father denied or ignored their point of view    
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f03/web3/r2kallon.html#3

She is not his family, his friend, his kindred Goth...

Sounds like a  hypocrisy. "If a person is a stranger I don't need to choose the words..."

"Eric Mohat, 17, was harassed so mercilessly in high school that when one bully said publicly in class, "Why don't you go home and shoot yourself, no one will miss you," he did. The lawsuit -- filed March 27, alleges that the quiet but likable boy, who was involved in theater and music, was called "gay," "fag," "queer" and "homo" and often in front of his teachers".
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/story?id=7228335

Where that cruelty towards Eric and three other students came from?
Why people seek refuge creating and joying to subcultures?

[acrzybear]

I would never ask anybody here on RWD are you a "Goth" or "mentally ill"...would you??

It would never dawn on me to do so either.

After all, we are here to discuss FSUW!!
GOB

GOB

actually you don't have to ask about most of the male board members mental status- I think it's safe to say we're all mentally ill for pursuing this endeavor 

[UTRO]

Hey Utrobina.

This is where I disagree completely with you.

If a man is truly coming to RWD for "expert" advice on finding, courting and marrying an FSU woman, then he has found the right place.

There is absolutely NO need in getting into your "personal" life (especially if it is bizarre/strange).

The OP could have come here without displaying his behaviors/troubles like a "BADGE OF HONOR", BUT instead I believe he did it on purpose to extract the kind of reaction that he got here.

Some gay people do the same thing (throw it in your face) whether you (or your children) want to see it or not.

Sorry, but NOBODY "forced" him to post all of the sordid details of his life.

I would never ask anybody here on RWD are you a "Goth" or "mentally ill"...would you??


It would never dawn on me to do so either.


GOB

But that's the point GOB. Who knows what disorders any of us have here! We choose, wisely, not to share. He didn't. Maybe he's just too stupid honest about himself? He became defensive and rightly or wrongly let his demon out. But, has he done anything wrong? If he's going to fly overseas to meet a woman, it most certainly means he doesn't have a criminal record....
As I said, he has issues. No doubt. But, by telling him to get over it is lame. He's 39 and he's been living with these issues for a long time. It seems to me that for the most part he leads a functional life. Did he not say he helps those who aren't?

[UTRO]

GOB

actually you don't have to ask about most of the male board members mental status- I think it's safe to say we're all mentally ill for pursuing this endeavor 

LMAO!! 

[groovlstk]

Part of me hopes Gothman makes his trip, but if I were his close friend I'd never let him go alone - his passive nature will have every opportunist in a land of opportunists digging through his pockets. What happens if he arrives at the agency office and finds out he's been getting scammed for the last two years? Based on his behavior here, he might threaten to top himself. Now, if he says that in front of sympathetic Westerners, he may get help. If he says it in front of an agency owner (as well as many everyday people in Ukraine) who has made a living out of ripping off foolish Western men, he'll get zero sympathy and plenty of laughter.

For all those who feel a responsibility for protecting Gothman's feelings, what will you do if he takes your advice and travels to Kherson to find the truth, only to find out the whole thing is a scam (which, based on all he's said, seems a fair bet)? He'll be alone in an impoverished city where no one understands him, and the despair he will feel will be a million times worse than what he feels after being insulted on a message board. Would you feel any responsibility if he does the unthinkable?

There are consequences for being blunt with someone with mental illness. There are also consequences for blowing smoke up the same person's behind and telling them to chase a fantasy.

Quite frankly, if his daily chats are the only bright spot in his life, why jeopardize the fantasy? He should continue to chat with her and leave Pandora's Box buried out back.

[Blues Fairy]

Sounds like a  hypocrisy. "If a person is a stranger I don't need to choose the words..."

Absolutely not. 

In both of your examples (coworker, fellow student) - those around the depressed person were not strangers but people very involved in their lives (although I suspect if the person in the first example had no intention of dealing with her depression, her bosses and colleagues would not be as supportive).  Internet forums are, by definition, completely impersonal and if the dude knows himself to be driven to suicidal thoughts by words of people he'll never even meet, it's probably high time he stopped visiting forums outside of his Goth community altogether. 

[Misha]

What happens if he arrives at the agency office and finds out he's been getting scammed for the last two years?

I agree. I have given Gothman some advice as to how to potentially find Alina on another site. He must establish contact with Alina outside of the agency. He must get a regular e-mail (mail.ru, gmail, whatever), he must talk to her on the phone, and ideally he must chat with her free of agency control (Skype, ICQ, etc...). Once he has done that and has ascertained that she is real, and that she is authentic, and once he has addressed the other issues (can he deal with rejection overseas?), then IMHO he will be ready to travel to Ukraine.

[OlgaH]

groovlstk, most likely Mark would have a consultation with his therapist regarding traveling.

He wanted to know about financial side of the trip and if his Alina is for real. He expressed himself as a person with bipolar disorder and did not hide it, there was not any need to point out a "misery" of his persona

Bipolar Disorder Q&A: Is it too dangerous to travel with bipolar disorder?
http://blogs.psychcentral.com/bipolar/2009/05/bipolar-disorder-qa-is-it-too-dangerous-to-travel-with-bipolar-disorder/

[OlgaH]

Absolutely not.  
 

We have different view. I think absolutely yes, may be because I have the same sympathy to a stranger as I have to people who are close to me.

those around the depressed person were not strangers but people very involved in their lives

Those who involved in people lives can be absolutely strangers, even parents to their children, therefore people can seek emotional support and understanding somewhere else including subcultures.

So where the cruelty among young people that push other young people to suicide comes from?
 

[groovlstk]

He wanted to know about financial side of the trip and if his Alina is for real.

Olga, Gothman wasn't interested in opinions about whether Alina is real or not. In his first post he indicated concerns about whether he was being scammed, but he had absolutely no interest in hearing others' thoughts on this unless it supported his fantasy. At the first indication that people suspected there might be a problem, he threatened to stop posting.

[BC]

Actually you don't have to ask about most of the male board members mental status- I think it's safe to say we're all mentally ill for pursuing this endeavor 

Even though a smiley is attached, there is a lot of truth to this statement.

In one way or another we all have 'issues' upstairs .  The difference lies only in measure.. nobody is perfect.

We use many words here with little effort to define.. this causes many unnecessary 'battle of words'.

Just an example.

Some strong words have been used here like 'pedophile' with NO common definition but a wide range of subjective and wide legal application.  Just a little example, the age of consent in Italy was RAISED to the age of 14 not too long ago by dropping the subjective exception for 12 year old girls that could be considered well.. 'of loose moral character'..

Current law: The age of consent in Italy is 14 years, with a close-in-age exception that allows those aged 13 to engage in sexual activity with partners who are less than 3 years older. The age of consent rises to 16 if one of the participants has some kind of influence on the other (e.g. teacher, tutor, biological or adoptive parent).[2]. Not knowing the fact that the victim is underage is considered a mitigating circumstance.[3]  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

Now compare that with laws in other countries of the world..  Spain, plain and simple 13, USA.. well... naa - lets not go there..

In any case, use of the word pedophile in the context of this board is totally unwarranted, but as always we should ALL carry around a salt shaker and be ready to apply liberally when necessary.

[Shadow]

Substance and style. 

I agree with the substance of what Blues Fairy wrote, particularly that DJ should not pursue RW. 

The problem is that BF delivered her message in direct style that could be interpreted as “Snap Out of It,” something that many of us married to RW can appreciate.  The “Snap Out of It” style does not work with depressed people because they can not.

A few of you are criticizing BluesFairy.  Did BF really do anything wrong here with DJ?  Not in my opinion.  She is not his family, his friend, his kindred Goth.  DJ got the message from BF that he should have received by coming to RWD – namely, RW and the process of marrying a RW is not for DJ.  BF could have expressed some sympathy before cutting DJ loose, yet it was important that DJ receive the message and not sympathy.

I agree that DJ should not pursue 'standard' RW like BF. 

[Blues Fairy]

We have different view. I think absolutely yes, may be because I have the same sympathy to a stranger as I have to people who are close to me.

So where the cruelty among young people that push other young people to suicide comes from?

Look Olga, I see there's no stopping you when you ride on your white rhino to the defense of all the poor and downtrodden of this world, but to equate me with high school bullies?  Aren't you building a straw man here?

People who would come here and say; "Folks, I'm bipolar and I really want to go to FSU to meet this gal; please advise how best to proceed" - would receive my full support and sympathy and help. 

But not someone who writes:

Yes, I was looking for support and encouragement. I didnt find it here... Ive never found it... never felt it, and now I have doubts whether ANYTHING is real. It seems to me that all hope is lost. I'm alone... I'll always be alone because fate has chosen to curse me with a life of darkness. I've gone back to sleeping 16 hours a day... no reason to wake... no purpose to live.

 

[OlgaH]

Olga, Gothman wasn't interested in opinions about whether Alina is real or not. In his first post he indicated concerns about whether he was being scammed, but he had absolutely no interest in hearing others' thoughts on this unless it supported his fantasy. At the first indication that people suspected there might be a problem, he threatened to stop posting.

Is there a problem to express a concern about being scammed? There is a whole section "Scammers and Suspect Agencies" on the board where members express their concern. From his first post he wrote that he is a Goth and posted link to his page on "My space".   So knowing about goth sub-culture it is not difficult to understand that there might be a problem. He has his own hopes and dreams as we all do, but his sensitivity to the words of other people and to the lost of his hope is much different due to his mental conditions and he expresses himself different. Problem is that some people who consider themselves to be normal don't know where to stop with their "reasonable" advices with insults.

I don't think his post below is a threat... after being insulted.

This is my final post... no defence no more attacks... I quit