A woman of your age

[Gator]

I have only my own experience to draw upon, but I'd say there's a point in your relationship where you may or may not assume (and I hate to use this term) a fatherly role in addition to lover and husband.

When a foreign woman arrives, her man is her life line.  She is solely dependent upon him to guide her through her adaptation into a different culture, language and life system.  It is only natural for him to assume a fatherly role as she is very child like in her new environment.  The woman also accepts his fatherly role as he is her sole source of learning everything required in her move to America.  

You two with this "father" talk are making me feel uneasy.  How about using the word mentor.  That's how I refer to my role to help my wife accomplish her goals.

[Admin]

You two with this "father" talk are making me feel uneasy.  How about using the word mentor.  That's how I refer to my role to help my wife accomplish her goals.

Influenced by the recent Mackenzie Phillips pronouncement of incest, no doubt.

j/k

- Dan

[I/O]

Knock knock, anything new in here? Age gaps? Turbo still defending them? Ken still saying do as I say not as I do/did? A few knowalls with no experience throwing pearls of "wisdom" in from the sidelines?   

[remiel6]

I would never claim to be a know all, I just play one on television  . I thank everyone for their comments. I do read them and will remember them as my own marriage takes off and progresses. In the end as someone embarking on this voyage, I would not say that solely because a person has never done something does not mean that he is unable to make a comment or analysis of a situation. I know a lot of lawyers who advice to people in criminal trials yet they have never been convicted of anything. They enter a court for the first time with nothing more then knowledge learned from books and tested. Now this is a different beast totally, but the point is to not listen to someone simply because you think they are inexperienced may be to lose someone who has wisdom. Maybe I am not as old as some here, or have not been married, but that does not mean I have no experiences that might be worthwhile. I've had health problems. Had the priest come to see me in this hospital. Been close to death more than once, this changes your perspective on things. In some ways all life is borrowed time. I look at KenC's story and I feel bad for him yes, but at the same time he did say he had 9.5 wonderful years  From a man who could have died twice in the last 18 I think, cool 

[LEGAL]

Your obvious indignation. defensiveness and resorting to personal attacks suggests a significant underlying discomfort with this whole subject.

Gee Scott I Thought VWRW & TG gave a very good thoughtful posts that I agree with and I think she was spot on.   Scott Speaking about being indignant & defensive . I remember how you have treated other people in the past on this board. Guy's You just have to love an educated RW I do. They TNS

[Gator]

Tim, there is much wisdom in your post.  I'd say age gap issues may be a "2" on a scale of "10," while issue like compatibility and common life goals are a "10."

A few years ago I wrote about deciding between:

1) A young woman who was so compatible as to be a true friend, yet she was at a different stage (wanted to accomplish something professionally and earn money).

2) Another woman (11 years older but still an age gap) who was at the same stage as me (she had already achieved a degree of professional success and wanted to enjoy life and not work). 

I chose the second.  It turned out that she and I were not compatible.  It took 18 months to come to that realization.

The younger woman and I married a year later.  You mentioned "common life goals."  Some of our goals are common such as "family life."  For sure some other goals are not common, yet they are aligned such that each can be achieved (they are not mutually exclusive).  This requires some accommodation by both of us, yet this is not difficult to accomplish considering our compatibility.

Not perfect, yet that is the way it is.

[Daveman]

A few years ago I wrote about deciding between:

1) A young woman who was so compatible as to be a true friend, yet she was at a different stage (wanted to accomplish something professionally and earn money).

2) Another woman (11 years older but still an age gap) who was at the same stage as me (she had already achieved a degree of professional success and wanted to enjoy life and not work). 

where'd ya dig her up?  heh, sorry couldn't resist the idiotic temptation... ok, 11 year older than the younger woman

[JR]

Way back when I dated a woman 11 years older than be and I wish I'd a kept her...

[Gator]

where'd ya dig her up?  heh, sorry couldn't resist the idiotic temptation... ok, 11 year older than the younger woman

 

I hope everyone recognizes the clever pun you made.  If she were 11 years older than the ancient me, I would have to dig, 6 feet deep to be exact.

[KenC]

We all got it, don't you worry Gator

[Gator]

Did our age gap create any problems today? 

The quick answer, not today.  Not yesterday either.

If satisfied, you can skip the rest which details what happened. 

Warning:  petty stuff.

-  My wife and I discussed what to do about our adolescent Great Dane, who has been limping inexplicably for a week.  I earlier had examined the dog carefully and could not detect the source of the limp, so I suggested that we observe her for a few days and give her some aspirin.  My wife said we should have her x-rayed.  We “debated” and agreed to observe the dog without x-rays and no aspirin.  Babushka was involved in the discussion of course. 

-  At noon my wife went to the Russian store with a new friend, a RW her age who has never been to the store (doesn’t drive).

-  The insurance company wants to interview her over the telephone about an accident she had, so I reviewed with her the accident and coached her about the possible questions.

-  This evening I had to console her 12-yo daughter because she just said her final goodbyes to her “BFF” who is moving away because of a divorce.

-  Mama could not console her daughter because she is at her real estate agent class this evening, working towards her goal to start a business in America.

-  I fielded a telephone call from her 13-yo son’s science teacher describing how he continues to do the minimum and is disrupting the class.  This is a recurring problem and I took away his computer (video games).

-  I did play golf today and in our group a French Canadian ex-hockey player broke par so we celebrated a little longer than normal.

-  Which reminds me - I have a Saturday tournament and so I had to tell my wife that she would have to go to the Pop Warner football game without me.  She said “Okay.”

There was some other stuff: a friend and I talked about a real estate investment opportunity, my younger son had a question about his university, etc.

I warned you it was petty.  So did our huge age gap result in any problems?   Not today.  And today seems just like the rest of the days, although the specific details vary.

[JR]

You're in denial Gator.....

[BC]

I was aware of some of the other problems that you had to deal with.   Personally, I can't see financial problems as being age difference related.   Actually it can happen more easily to a younger person.   People can also get sick at any age.   Yes, I will agree that it can happen more frequently as someone ages but there are lots of healty middle aged and older people.

I am not sure what ever happened to the "in sickness and in health for better or worse, until death do us part" bit.   Of course women used to promise to "love, honor and obey"   Give it another generation and men will have to say that when they get married in the USA.

Turbo,

Life sometimes gives us a 'slap in the face'.. and there is no telling what will happens when reality sinks in.  Some may react differently than others.

When couples begin to have problems, they usually report the symptoms and not root cause.  Like an onion it takes a good bit of effort peeling to the core of the matter.

Your posts are lined with rationalizations, hope and optimism.  I hope they pan out for you two in the long run, but those just venturing into these waters need a little more than flying by the seat of their pants on a hope and a prayer..

Isn't in kind of strange that wealthy couples that never experience financial problems during marriage fight like cats and dogs over money when they divorce?

It's a strange world.. and you never truly know until something happens.

Just a mundane example, one you will likely not have to experience:

Our 5 yr old just started school this year.. who would ever think that homework could cause such turmoil.  We're dealing with vastly different teaching methods and goals and our discussions can get pretty hefty with our divergent views.  Not because education is so much different in RU, but because of almost 30 years of experience with kids vs 15.   Had we been peers (no age difference) it probably wouldn't be that much of a big deal and I don't remember it being so with my younger children.  Not age difference related?  Isn't it interesting that our age difference correlates with child upbringing experience?..  and how many times have we heard of problems with children as a major cause for divorce of age difference marriages..  It's all the kids fault?  BS I say.. it's pure and simple age difference.

[ScottinCrimea]

Gee Scott I Thought VWRW & TG gave a very good thoughtful posts that I agree with and I think she was spot on.   Scott Speaking about being indignant & defensive . I remember how you have treated other people in the past on this board. Guy's You just have to love an educated RW I do. They TNS

First, I would appreciate you providing me with some specific examples of how I have treated people improperly on this forum.  I know Olga took offense at one time because she couldn't logically refute the points I presented in opposition to hers, and perhaps this has tainted your impressions, but I think in every case where I have had a disagreement with someone here I have provided evidence supporting my side.  You've made an accusation, please back it up.

Second, I have found it very interesting that no one to date has refuted any of the points I made in my somewhat long post on this thread.  Most have chosen just to ignore it and go on with the same arguments.  It's the "a la carte" response that someone upthread mentioned.

Turbo has indeed provided some thoughtful responses, based on HIS limited experience, and some that are thoughtful but not based on experience and might encourage newbies to follow his path.  vwrw, on the other hand, has provided nothing thoughtful, only defensive.

[ScottinCrimea]

 When I started reading here I wanted to learn what pitfalls, problems and difficulties I might face when marrying a RW.  I wanted to be prepaired and to try to do my best to make a good husband and a happy marriage.   I was prepaired for a lot more challenges than I really faced.

TG, when I read this I started to believe there was hope for you, but your subsequent rationalizations blew that.  Perhaps you and your wife are the exception - I sincerely hope so.

What do I think should have been your responses?  Maybe something like, "Okay, here are the experiences of some who have gone before us.  I need to pay attention to what they are saying and ask questions as to how I can deal with some of the issues they have already dealt with.  I want my marriage to succeed and recognize that I am in a relationship with unique challenges and they are the source of some answers."   There should be questions asked, not minor points debated.  You should be listening to those who have overcome specific age related issues and be asking for advice on how they did this.

Instead, I am seeing you choose the issues that you think don't apply to your relationship and arguing those while ignoring those that do,

You have to understand the purpose behind my posts as well as those of KenC's and others.  We have no interest in cursing those who feel they have succeeded where we might have failed.  We want to point out very clearly the issues that WILL come up and give our take on what those issues are and what we might have done differently.  We want to discourage the newbies from taking on this added risk and provide first hand experience and offer advice to those who have already done so.

KenC had a 10 year age gap relationship.  Mine was 6 years.  There are others here with similar experience, both good and bad.  I have been on these forums a long time and KenC even longer than me.  We have seen the experiences of many others.  We're not just blowing smoke, we speak from both personal and second hand experience.  Perhaps we have something valuable to contribute that shouldn't be just blown off as irrelevent to your "unique" relationship.

I took the time to write a quite lengthy post outliniing how the age gap directly influences the reasons most often given for divorce.  I  have yet to see a single specific point refuting any of these.  Instead, those with the most to lose if my poijnts are correct chose to ignore them.

Turbo, KenC, even when in the best years of his marriage, never recommended that path to anyone and specifically warned against it.  My take is that you are encouraging others to follow your path.  So my direct question is: If you were giving advice to a newbie face to face, would you encourage him to seek a similar age gap or discourage him?

[BC]

So my direct question is: If you were giving advice to a newbie face to face, would you encourage him to seek a similar age gap or discourage him?

Here's a long past discussion somewhat along those lines..

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=605.0

[Turboguy]

Turbo,

When couples begin to have problems, they usually report the symptoms and not root cause.  Like an onion it takes a good bit of effort peeling to the core of the matter.

Your posts are lined with rationalizations, hope and optimism.  I hope they pan out for you two in the long run, but those just venturing into these waters need a little more than flying by the seat of their pants on a hope and a prayer..

Our 5 yr old just started school this year.. who would ever think that homework could cause such turmoil.  We're dealing with vastly different teaching methods and goals and our discussions can get pretty hefty with our divergent views.  Not because education is so much different in RU, but because of almost 30 years of experience with kids vs 15.   Had we been peers (no age difference) it probably wouldn't be that much of a big deal and I don't remember it being so with my younger children.  Not age difference related?  Isn't it interesting that our age difference correlates with child upbringing experience?..  and how many times have we heard of problems with children as a major cause for divorce of age difference marriages..  It's all the kids fault?  BS I say.. it's pure and simple age difference.

Thanks for the good wishes BC.   I can agree with your post, at least for the most part.   I also have to agree about education.   My first school days have been quite a while.  After 20 years out of school, I took some college classes just for something to do and to learn a few new things.   There wasn't much difference in the school experience.   My wife is now a college student and is for the moment going to the same college I took courses at.  It absolutely shocked me how different it is these days.   Most of it is changes for the good. 

There was some talk here about are we a father figure or a mentor when we help out.  I spend a fair amount of time helping VWRW with her homework.  I guess it does remind me of when my kids where little.  I am almost surprised as much as things have changed that I can help, but I can.

[Turboguy]

TG, when I read this I started to believe there was hope for you, but your subsequent rationalizations blew that.  Perhaps you and your wife are the exception - I sincerely hope so.

What do I think should have been your responses?  Maybe something like, "Okay, here are the experiences of some who have gone before us.  I need to pay attention to what they are saying and ask questions as to how I can deal with some of the issues they have already dealt with.  I want my marriage to succeed and recognize that I am in a relationship with unique challenges and they are the source of some answers."   There should be questions asked, not minor points debated.  You should be listening to those who have overcome specific age related issues and be asking for advice on how they did this.

Scott, you really thought for a minute there might be hope for me.  Most everyone knows I am hopeless.

When I joined here 4 and a half years ago in in one of the early days of RWD's existence as I said my interest was in learning how to succeed with RW and what issues, challenges and situations I might face.   

I appreciate that you feel I should have paid more attention to KenC and others with age gaps.   Never in any of my 4000+ posts on RWD have I ever said I had even the tiniest, minutest interest in learning about the pitfalls of age gaps.  I have never had the tinest of concerns about being in an age gap relationship.  To be honest the thought that it could create a problem has never entered my mind for a second.  In saying that I don't mean that I ignore the real issues of age gap relationships.  VWRW and I have had long and meaningful discussions about the real issues we will face and were willing to take those risks.   

[Turboguy]

Turbo, KenC, even when in the best years of his marriage, never recommended that path to anyone and specifically warned against it.  My take is that you are encouraging others to follow your path.  So my direct question is: If you were giving advice to a newbie face to face, would you encourage him to seek a similar age gap or discourage him?

That is a tough one Scott.  I really don't think I would encourage him, but I am not sure I would discourage him either.  Personally, I don't see age gap as being as important as other compatability and personal issues so I probably would just wish him luck and leave the age difference part to his discretion.   

If I did discuss it I would probably suggest that the more age gap relationships he has been in during his past dating life the more chance it won't be as much of a problem.   The more he is comfortable around younger people the more chance of success.   His being in good health and active would be a plus.   I might also say that if he is going to be in an age gap relationship he might want to pay more attention to the inner person of the woman he is interested in.   If all he is attracted to is a pretty face and a hot body then the age gap is going to create a train wreck.

[BC]

I appreciate that you feel I should have paid more attention to KenC and others with age gaps.   Never in any of my 4000+ posts on RWD have I ever said I had even the tiniest, minutest interest in learning about the pitfalls of age gaps.  I have never had the tinest of concerns about being in an age gap relationship.  To be honest the thought that it could create a problem has never entered my mind for a second.  In saying that I don't mean that I ignore the real issues of age gap relationships.  VWRW and I have had long and meaningful discussions about the real issues we will face and were willing to take those risks.   

Had to chuckle a bit a that one... made me choke on my coffee..

Yeah know this was tongue in cheek..

Have to admit that if one considers past performance, you really gave us quite a bit to worry about....  IIRC you were also really sweating that one out.. how old was she?

[Turboguy]

BC, sorry to disappoint you BC but that really wasn't tongue in cheek.   I was serious.   I really never was concerned about the age gap at all.  I also never had the least interest in anyone else's experiences with it.   I had enough of my own that I didn't feel a second hand one was of value. 

Who, my former fiancee.   She was 27 or 28 when I met her and is two years older than my wife.

[BC]

BC, sorry to disappoint you BC but that really wasn't tongue in cheek.   I was serious.   I really never was concerned about the age gap at all.  I also never had the least interest in anyone else's experiences with it.   I had enough of my own that I didn't feel a second hand one was of value. 

blind leading the blind then...

Who, my former fiancee.   She was 27 or 28 when I met her and is two years older than my wife.

Yeah..

[remiel6]

Scott I thought your post was very thoughtful and helpful to those entering this arena for the first time. You raise some very solid questions. I go back to something Jolly said on a different thread, about being in the same stage. I also might wonder out loud if the specific ages matter. I mean is, lets say, 37 year old male with a 22 year old wife, both with no kids, never been married, still in the height of thier careers the same as a 30 year old woman who is marrying a 45 year old man? I am not sure. Now of course the 37 year old man will be 45 at some point in time, but if the 45 year old man in the second scenario has 4 kids from a previous marriage does he really want more? In this second scenario the children issue is going to be a major issue.
Personally I didn't respond because I was going over the list to make sure I had thought everything out and A and I have discussed the things you mention. The second reason I didn't reply is that I haven't been married and will be shouted down for that, but here goes.
Children: in your story you mention miscarriages, since i don't know I have to ask, are they your and her misscarriages. The women I personally know who have had a miscarriage took it very hard. This played havoc on all thier marriages even when they were born a month a part. This is a major, major life changing event. It is very hard to say how a person will react to such things. on this note my general personal attitude about this is, "If a woman has never had children, or is still of child rearing age, don't completely trust her when she says she doesn't want more or any kids." this is one of those statements people make that will change over time. Its not that she's lying, its that she is likely to change her mind. I can't argue with this point. I think as the age gap changes, if the man no longer wants kids, the importance of this subject increases.
Finances: I think in my reading this is the number one cause of divorce. Again important to have clear communication on this, where are you in your life stages. Discuss this before you get married.
Sex: sort of goes without saying. If you want to date a young woman you better be willing to go the distance. This is an issue that also can change over time. Sex drive can lower and this can become a problem over time. It isn't always related to age though, depression can effect sex drive for example.
Lack of communication: This is the one I worry about most, as it effects all the others on the list. My own personal philosophy is to put everything on the table. What I mean by that is we don't go to bed with unresolved things and I don't like to not talk about things hoping they will go away. They won't its a simple as that.
Social life: again know who you are marrying. Are you ready and willing to go to nightclubs dancing. Is that what entertains her.
If you are 50 dating a 20 year old girl who goes clubbing every night, this could be a recipe for disaster alone. It was one of the reasons I've amassed over 400 pages of letters with my fiance. I know what she does on the weekend, in her free time. I know her views on things. I also know that once she lands her feet in a new country all of it may change. So I will have to watch closely what the culture shock and change in lifestyle does to us.
The one thing I have learned from all of you is, try your very, very best not to walk around your marriage with blinders on. That is easier to say then do, but if anyone with more experience than me has advice on how to accomplish this so I can achieve what I always try to achieve and not let problems simmer for so long that they blow up one day.
I thought you made a good post, I still think Jolly's life stages idea is the best and its important to remember that two people who start out the same can change.

[Turboguy]

BC, I have just been in enough age gap relationships that it is not something I think is that important.   Lot's of people do think it is important or even critical.   That is fine.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  

My beliefs are this:

Most women and lots of men are not comfortable with it.  That being the case they won't get into one at all and that is fine.

If the woman is going to have problems with age gap they will appear before marriage assuming the couple spends some time together.  

If two people marry they won't change that much in the early parts of a marriage, lets say for 5 or 10 years.   There is a likelyhood of problems as the man gets really old.  If a 45 year old man marries a 25 year old woman that is not going to be for 25 years or so.   Still this can be an important issue and I think there is something to be said for the Shelf life theory.   Age gap marriages can have a shelf life and it may possibly be shorter the older the man is.  

If a woman marries a man for a Visa or is basically a GCW it will be a train wreck and any age difference they have is immaterial.

That the critical thing is not the age difference it is compatability.   Age difference very often can be a reason for compatability problems but the underlaying problem is not the age difference it is the compatability.   This can be a real problem in an age gap marriage.  If your life styles, goals and ideas of what your life should be are different then that is something that anyone should think long and hard about.

Issues involving parenthood can be a problem.  It possibly was one of the important factors in KenC's divorce and also in Jack's case.  In our case we had long discussons about this issue and I see zero probability of it creating a problem for us.  It is something that anyone entering an age gap marriage should think long and hard about.   Women can change their mind about wanting kids, particularly as their biological clock starts to run down.  

Personally I think people are very different.   A few years ago here a UW living in America who I know and who was a little upset with me over what she felt I had done to her came on here and posted for a little while.   What I had really done was bent over backwards to try to help her.  It was someone who I had written to when she was in Ukraine.  She married a guy, moved here and got divorced.  She sort of felt he was too old for her.   All he wanted to do was to sit in front of the tv each night, drink martini's and watch the tube.   She wanted a more active lifestyle, to go for romantic walks and such.  She was very interested in persuing me.   She felt her husband was too old as I mentioned.   I was 10 years older than her ex.  Personally I think people are all different and some are much younger acting than others and that can be a factor.    If someone feels old, looks old and acts old they probably should not think about an age gap relationship.

BC, it could have been worse, at least from the standpoint of those who think age gaps are critical.  I briefly mentioned the lady from Donetsk who was my backup when I met my first fiancee.   She and I had about a 43 or 44 year age difference.  

Scott mentioned that at the two year point in his marriage that he was as happy as VWRW and I are and felt that the same applied to KenC.  Personally I doubt it.   I really think very few couples are as happy together as VWRW and I are.  I don't doubt that they were happy, but I do doubt that they were as happy as we are.

As far as any problems the age difference has caused for us, absolutely nothing in our relationship together.   The only times anything came up is one kid in Granada selling jewelry, and one old lady in Grenada who we bought Mango from who referred to her as my daughter which we laughed about.  We have had long discussions about the real problems that can come from an age gap marriage and deal with those issues as best we can.   I do think VWRW is a little more focused on being independent in case something would happen to me than she might be otherwise.  I don't see that as a problem.  It is just dealing with life's realities.  

Personally, I am not sure what constitutes success.   Is a marriage that is good for 9 years and then ends a failure?  I am not so sure it is.   I guess it depends on if the 9 great years are worth the pain and heartbreak when it ends.   I can recall being in the office of a business owner who after 18 years in business had gone into bankruptcy.  He was crying his eyes out and talking to me about what a failure he was.   I had to think of the 18 years he provided a valuable service, employed lots of people and made a good living.   I was never sure if the tears were over the failure or the fact I was holding a bad check that could have been big problems for him.  Whatever it was I ripped the check up and wished him the best.   What is success and what is failure?  Can they really be defined or is it like an accounting balance sheet.  It is the moment that counts.  Todays success is tomorrows failure.  Was the film camera a success?   Was KenC's marriage a success?  Both are dead now but I think both were a success.  

[I/O]

The one thing I have learned from all of you is, try your very, very best not to walk around your marriage with blinders on. That is easier to say then do, but if anyone with more experience than me has advice on how to accomplish this

Put more effort in to keeping her heart than you did into winning her heart.