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Author Topic: Who comes first: Spouse or children  (Read 47311 times)

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Offline KenC

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #150 on: October 23, 2009, 07:19:18 PM »
As far as I understand the thread is about generalization, the situation described is not defined. We don't know what happened.
It could be just a fight or the kid could be standing on the rode with no car and money at midnight.
" Mom, please, help me- I don't want to live"
Something like this. That's why the mother preferred her kid to sex. I am sure of it.Too bad somebody was "really ready" to make love.
Doll,
No matter how much you distort the facts in play to justify your opinion; it is a ridiculous opinion.  The only thing you are "sure of" is that you're right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. :cluebat:  Are you related to Jazzy by chance?

BTW, to infer that the majority of the AM here agree with your ridiculous conclusion is yet another distortion of the truth.
KenC
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Offline Doll

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #151 on: October 23, 2009, 07:40:52 PM »
Quote
No matter how much you distort the facts in play to justify your opinion; it is a ridiculous opinion.
I don't think anybody can call somebody else's opinion ridiculous. It is very rude, sir.

Offline KenC

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #152 on: October 23, 2009, 08:14:20 PM »
I don't think anybody can call somebody else's opinion ridiculous. It is very rude, sir.
Doll,
You know what?  You are correct and I am wrong to call your opinion ridiculous.  My father used to tell me that opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one!  You are entitled to your opinion.

However, your justification and distortion of the "facts" that lead to your opinion are totally bogus and misleading.
As far as I understand the thread is about generalization, the situation described is not defined. We don't know what happened.
It could be just a fight or the kid could be standing on the rode with no car and money at midnight.
" Mom, please, help me- I don't want to live"
Something like this. That's why the mother preferred her kid to sex. I am sure of it.
Mars had already specified that this was NOT the case.
I clearly stated the situation:  "She wants to talk in person with her mother about an argument she had with her boyfriend."
To add a condescending insult to your ignoring the "facts" as presented you said:
Quote
Too bad somebody was "really ready" to make love.
Who's rude here?

You go on to totally distort the facts of this thread with inferring that the majority of the men support your opinion.
Blue, Mars also didn't notice that the majority of AM here said that their kids came first too.
Yes, most men and women agree that the needs of their children should be a priority, but not with your ridiculous circumstances attached.  (Which only come from you and no one else.)

But the capper is when you express indignancy to a slight that is only in your own imagination based on turning the truth upside down!
Quote
Double standards. It is ok if you and your ex wife put your kids first but it is not ok if RW does it with her kids.

Get over yourself.
KenC
You are a den of vipers and thieves-Andrew Jackson on banks
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

Offline Doll

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #153 on: October 24, 2009, 03:40:09 AM »
Off topic, Ken (though I am sure you know what you're doing)-
I am suggesting you'd slow down  and read some of your posts over.
When somebody expresses her or his own opinion on the situation - it is ok,
when somebody starts calling the opinions ridiculous or stupid it is funny because who are you to judge!
This is what we are teaching the kids in American schools.
I am not getting over myself "because you said so". Got it?
I  ( and everybody else) have all the rights to oppose or justify anything and you please be polite.
I am sure you are not comprehending it.
For the future reference- there is no way somebody here is smarter or dumper.
We are talking, ok?
So save all these "ridiculous", " indignant" "stupid" for somebody else.
Start learning how to respect people, especially women who don't agree with you.

 Irina
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 03:47:31 AM by Doll »

Offline KenC

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #154 on: October 24, 2009, 06:20:21 AM »
Off topic, Ken (though I am sure you know what you're doing)-
I am suggesting you'd slow down  and read some of your posts over.
When somebody expresses her or his own opinion on the situation - it is ok,
when somebody starts calling the opinions ridiculous or stupid it is funny because who are you to judge!
This is what we are teaching the kids in American schools.
I am not getting over myself "because you said so". Got it?
I  ( and everybody else) have all the rights to oppose or justify anything and you please be polite.
I am sure you are not comprehending it.
For the future reference- there is no way somebody here is smarter or dumper.
We are talking, ok?
So save all these "ridiculous", " indignant" "stupid" for somebody else.
Start learning how to respect people, especially women who don't agree with you.

 Irina
Irina,
If pointing out that your conclusions are based on twisted facts, untruths and illogical assumptions is rude, so be it.  What you don't "get" is that even though you may have the right to any "off the wall" opinion, no one (man or woman) has the right to use false facts or to distort the truth to support those private opinions.

Sorry, Honey, you do not get to make up your own facts to support your opinions.  And get over your idea that as a woman, you expect to work from a different set of rules than a man.  You are not going to be able to have a sharp tongue and throw out condescending comments and then hide behind your own skirt.  Being considered "equal" does not include preferential treatment because of your sex.

BTW, I never used the word "stupid" but if the shoe fits wear it.  We are fortunate to have many brilliant RW as members here that are able to debate a variety of topics using logic and facts to support their opinions.  You are just not one of them.
KenC
You are a den of vipers and thieves-Andrew Jackson on banks
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

Offline I/O

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #155 on: October 24, 2009, 06:34:12 AM »
Come, people! The kid has something important to solve, his mother what- needs to please her Am husband?
Read this twice. It place's Doll's perspective in context. FWIW, I can assure the reader Mrs I/O has a very different perspective. She makes love (and ignores the lad knocking on the door or hollers at him to go back to bed) with me for a lot more reasons than "pleasing me". If the desire for physical intimacy is present, I certainly don't need to ask twice, in fact I don't ever need to ask at all. It's a very mutual thing and ain't nobody, kids, king or other short of house burning down is getting in the way. Neither of us are shy (with each other) to express our desires and we both very much enjoy that aspect of our marriage. There are NO obligatory offerings.

Back to the original questions. As with so many things written on these boards, I find something very different with my wife than "apparently" applies to other RW. Both our son and myself come first depending on the situation. When a child's needs are greater than any other in the family, it is natural the child will come first and in this instance yes I do think RW are a little stronger in action than WW, however when the child's "desires" are greater than everyone else's, in our case, he is likely to come third. I make very sure of that  :rolleyes2: (with 100% support from Mrs).

In reality, the marriage is the basis of the family and children are (highly honoured and much loved) somewhat temporary guests within that unity. Certainly they will assume the highest point of attention from both partners for a number of years and rightly so, however, eventually (given the marriage survives) the couple return to being a couple at which time the children are somewhat more distant although still part of the family. A smart woman (and man) will recognise this and temper the handling of their children accordingly. Fatally, some wrap themselves too much in their children (or in the wrong way) at the expense of all else, including their own needs and at the time the children leave home their world crumbles often with disastrous consequences for the marriage. Are RW more guilty of this than WW? IMO, no but certainly not less guilty either. The clue is the difference between the love of a child and the love of a spouse. Some get that and some don't. If it is fully understood by both partners, neither will feel they are being placed 2nd behind the child or vv.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 03:09:02 PM by I/O »

Offline Doll

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #156 on: October 24, 2009, 06:36:01 AM »
 Ken, ok, but every time you step on my toes I will bite  :D
BTW "stupid" and "ridiculous" are both judgments. So we keep our opinions about the opinions to ourselves.
As for something "twisted" then all the stories here ARE twisted just because there is "her truth, his truth and the truth"
One more time- I am willing to express my opinion "because I can" and this is the forum.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 06:42:40 AM by Doll »

Offline OlgaH

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #157 on: October 24, 2009, 07:47:46 AM »
OlgaH-

You don't think that the fine line separating the two in the world of MOB (International Marriage) is so fine that they are more closer than not?

No GQBlues, I don't think the line is so fine that the difference can not be noticed  :) but probably some men are not able to see the difference between the roles: "being a milk cow" and "being a husband"  :)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 07:59:41 AM by OlgaH »

Offline ECOCKS

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #158 on: October 24, 2009, 08:08:03 AM »
So, hopefully the myth is now debunked.

It seems pretty clear that the generalization of FSUW placing their children first has been "generally" determined to be incorrect.

As for placing children first being more of a female/parent thing, that seems more open to supposition irrespective of ethnicity.

Additionally, there is a thought that second marriage situations influence this perception and there might be some question as to how being immigrants might affect loyalties and priorities.

Pick and choose carefully among the advice offered and consider the source carefully. PM, Skype or email if you care to chat or discuss

Offline KenC

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #159 on: October 24, 2009, 08:48:01 AM »
So, hopefully the myth is now debunked.

It seems pretty clear that the generalization of FSUW placing their children first has been "generally" determined to be incorrect.

As for placing children first being more of a female/parent thing, that seems more open to supposition irrespective of ethnicity.

Additionally, there is a thought that second marriage situations influence this perception and there might be some question as to how being immigrants might affect loyalties and priorities.


Ed,
You can go much further than that IMO.  There is no denying that the bond between mother and child is going to be significant, if not over bearing in a second marriage, being fellow immigrants would only increase that bond.

I think a man would be foolish to think he would ever come before his step child.  At least while that step child is young. 

On the flip side, I always have been of the opinion that a woman from the fsu might find the transition to America somewhat less daunting if she had brought a child with her.  A little camaraderie if you will.  Also the child would ease some of her homesickness.  But this is only a theory of mine as I have not experienced it.  Your (and others) thoughts?
KenC
You are a den of vipers and thieves-Andrew Jackson on banks
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

Offline Doll

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #160 on: October 24, 2009, 08:49:46 AM »
Quote
On the flip side, I always have been of the opinion that a woman from the fsu might find the transition to America somewhat less daunting if she had brought a child with her.  A little camaraderie if you will.  Also the child would ease some of her homesickness.  But this is only a theory of mine as I have not experienced it.  Your (and others) thoughts?
KenC
Very true

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #161 on: October 24, 2009, 08:54:45 AM »
No GQBlues, I don't think the line is so fine that the difference can not be noticed  :) but probably some men are not able to see the difference between the roles: "being a milk cow" and "being a husband"  :)

OlgaH-

A 'cow' is female. The fact she's 'milking' is another good hint of her gender. So your theory isn't adding up.

As for the whole love vs money, ability to love vs ability to support...'even though we ain't got money, I'm so in love with you honey'...I could've sworn I had to attest to Uncle Sam of my ability to support a wife - twice, in two different forms.

Take the 'money' factor completely out of every MOB marriages where the man is utterly flat broke - I mean penniless / can't pay for food, home, Vegas wedding, heck even her AOS - from the day any woman arrives, take a guess how many RWs will be humming 'Danny's Song'?
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #162 on: October 24, 2009, 09:14:33 AM »
OlgaH-

A 'cow' is female. The fact she's 'milking' is another good hint of her gender. So your theory isn't adding up.


GQBlues, the phrase "a milk cow" - дойная корова is a metaphor that is popular in Russia and can be used in different situation and applied to a man, a woman, a company...  :)

As for the whole love vs money, ability to love vs ability to support...'even though we ain't got money, I'm so in love with you honey'...I could've sworn I had to attest to Uncle Sam of my ability to support a wife - twice, in two different forms.

Take the 'money' factor completely out of every MOB marriages where the man is utterly flat broke - I mean penniless / can't pay for food, home, Vegas wedding, heck even her AOS - from the day any woman arrives, take a guess how many RWs will be humming 'Danny's Song'?

I guess we talk about different things  :)

It is absolutely normal when a man support his family. But when a woman says "It is my child and I don't need your interruption and your opinion in his upbringing" or she doesn't need to hear and count her husband's opinion at all what is her reason for involving a man in her family...

Offline ECOCKS

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #163 on: October 24, 2009, 09:39:24 AM »
I remain firmly rooted in the "family" before "individual" camp. I cannot see any benefit in "prioritizing" members of your family on some master list set in concrete. It demeans the whole process of love and family relationships. Playing games like who would you rescue first if only one could be saved or would you interrupt sex to take a call from your kid are sophomoric and self-destructive IMO.

I would say SHORT-TERM that an immigrant mother with a child in tow would have a mixed bag with getting integrated. On one hand there seems to be some positive benefit in a ready ear to talk with (about simple things in the environment but remember, they are not an adult friend) and explore new things in the environment while settling into a new life. OTOH though, the pressures of a child (especially a teen) with regard to school, their social concerns, peer pressure issues, the whole boy-girl thing, the new dad, clothing, TV, entertainment, etc. are all going to increase the load and stress.
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Offline Turboguy

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #164 on: October 24, 2009, 09:45:15 AM »
GQBlues, the phrase "a milk cow" - дойная корова is a metaphor that is popular in Russia and can be used in different situation and applied to a man, a woman, a company...  :)

We have a similar expession her which is "cash cow" and as far as I know it applies more to men and businesses than women although if the woman was rich and generous it could apply to a woman here even though a cow is female and a bull is the male.   Of course we all know a lot about bull, I mean a bull.  Of course we also have a lot of experience here with the exhaust of a bull. 

Offline Vaughn

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #165 on: October 24, 2009, 09:53:37 AM »
On the flip side, I always have been of the opinion that a woman from the fsu might find the transition to America somewhat less daunting if she had brought a child with her.  A little camaraderie if you will.  Also the child would ease some of her homesickness.  But this is only a theory of mine as I have not experienced it.  Your (and others) thoughts?

That was our experience exactly. I might even take it further. My stepdaughter did more than
"ease" my wife's transition, she enabled it...

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #166 on: October 24, 2009, 10:03:27 AM »
I would say SHORT-TERM that an immigrant mother with a child in tow would have a mixed bag with getting integrated. On one hand there seems to be some positive benefit in a ready ear to talk with (about simple things in the environment but remember, they are not an adult friend) and explore new things in the environment while settling into a new life. OTOH though, the pressures of a child (especially a teen) with regard to school, their social concerns, peer pressure issues, the whole boy-girl thing, the new dad, clothing, TV, entertainment, etc. are all going to increase the load and stress.

Agree completely. Had this been a BWD - Brazilian Women Discussion, we'll likely be stereotyping Brazilian women much in the same way.

OlgaH-

Yes... the 'cow' metaphor is more popularly used in the US in a phrase about milk being free and the futility of purchasing one.

As for 'cash cow', that was originally used in the investment field or businesses where it describes a reliable source of income/funds where cost/revenue have a noticeable favorable disparity e.g. a milking cow is a reliable source of abundant 'milk' yet eats very little.

So based on the girth size of the average 'male' in this affair, eating very little doesn't quite apply so describing some/many as 'cash cow' still won't work, or no pun intended - 'fit'
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 10:09:10 AM by GQBlues »
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Offline Blues Fairy

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #167 on: October 24, 2009, 10:11:38 AM »
In reality, the marriage is the basis of the family and children are (highly honoured and much loved) somewhat temporary guests within that unity.

Absolutely so.  It especially helps to remember this once the children reach their teenage and adult years and require more and more freedom and personal responsibility, while many mamas still cling to them, imposing themselves as authority and therapist in one package and ready to take distraught phone calls in the middle of the night and listen to their whining about an argument with a boyfriend.  When I was young I wouldn't have dreamed to call my parents that way and overload them with personal troubles; I was more inclined to sort them out by myself.  Hopefully my kid(s) will learn to do the same. 

Offline KenC

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #168 on: October 24, 2009, 10:26:57 AM »
Absolutely so.  It especially helps to remember this once the children reach their teenage and adult years and require more and more freedom and personal responsibility, while many mamas still cling to them, imposing themselves as authority and therapist in one package and ready to take distraught phone calls in the middle of the night and listen to their whining about an argument with a boyfriend.  When I was young I wouldn't have dreamed to call my parents that way and overload them with personal troubles; I was more inclined to sort them out by myself.  Hopefully my kid(s) will learn to do the same. 
BF,
There is doubt in my mind you will succeed.  I believe the best parents fulfill their duty to prepare their children to be ready for the world in an independent manner.  Whereas those parents that enable a child's continued dependency on Momma & Poppa have failed to do their jobs properly.
KenC
You are a den of vipers and thieves-Andrew Jackson on banks
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

Offline KenC

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #169 on: October 24, 2009, 10:53:23 AM »
I would say SHORT-TERM that an immigrant mother with a child in tow would have a mixed bag with getting integrated. On one hand there seems to be some positive benefit in a ready ear to talk with (about simple things in the environment but remember, they are not an adult friend) and explore new things in the environment while settling into a new life. OTOH though, the pressures of a child (especially a teen) with regard to school, their social concerns, peer pressure issues, the whole boy-girl thing, the new dad, clothing, TV, entertainment, etc. are all going to increase the load and stress.
Ed,
After I posed the question to you and others, I realised that the only person truly qualified to answer was someone that brought 2 women here, one single and the other with child (ren).  8)  Maybe if in the future I do find a woman with a child, I could be able to make a better comparason. ???

While I understand that there are many give and takes to either road, I think you may be down playing the "positive benefits" of women with children.  While I understand that children are like little vampires of your time and energy (meant in the nicest way), they would also fill up that huge social hole that is inherent when changing countries, culture and even language.

Bringing a little piece of home and having a major purpose in their life by bringing a child, is a huge huge deal IMO.  I know Lena was lost and went through major culture shock with only me to rely on.  A child would not only fill up her day, but also give her a sense of purpose and a reason to be strong. 

While I also agree with your use of "short term," it is yet another benefit.  Having a partial family intact would speed up the transition IMO.  I know Lena suffered with tremendous boredom and homesickness for years.

Maybe we are both a little guilty of the grass being greener.... :D
KenC
You are a den of vipers and thieves-Andrew Jackson on banks
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

Offline OlgaH

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #170 on: October 24, 2009, 11:14:34 AM »
... while many mamas still cling to them, imposing themselves as authority and therapist in one package...  

Parent's over-love and over-protectionism can seriously ruin whole life of a child. Some parents even don't notice, especially it concerns possessive maternity, how they cross a line between their possessive parenting and "psychological incest".

The other terrible thing that can be done by a "too loving" parent to his child is to constantly remind the child: "I have sacrificed my life for you"  placing a life guilt on the child.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 11:45:13 AM by OlgaH »

Offline Mars

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #171 on: October 24, 2009, 02:50:26 PM »
ECOCKS: I cannot see any benefit in "prioritizing" members of your family on some master list set in concrete. It demeans the whole process of love and family relationships. Playing games like who would you rescue first if only one could be saved or would you interrupt sex to take a call from your kid are sophomoric and self-destructive IMO.

I/O: In reality, the marriage is the basis of the family and children are (highly honoured and much loved) somewhat temporary guests within that unity.

Blues Fairy:  Absolutely so.  It especially helps to remember this once the children reach their teenage and adult years and require more and more freedom and personal responsibility, while many mamas still cling to them, imposing themselves as authority and therapist in one package and ready to take distraught phone calls in the middle of the night and listen to their whining about an argument with a boyfriend.  When I was young I wouldn't have dreamed to call my parents that way and overload them with personal troubles; I was more inclined to sort them out by myself.  Hopefully my kid(s) will learn to do the same.

Doll:  Husbands come and go, children stay.

Blues Fairy:  Actually just the other way round; children grow up and go; husbands stay. 

- - - - - - - - -

ECOCKS, I disagree with you somewhat.  What seems sophomoric to you has some importance to many men (and women) in a relationship.  Most people would like to feel that they can be number one in some relationship, some time.

I think that women often get to experience the feeling of being number one.  Their mates almost always place them number one and their children almost always place them number one.

But for the man, the experience is much more problematic.  So I think it is important for the men in this pursuit to know the probability that they will ever be number one.  This probability can be estimated much better if there is some knowledge of the cultural factors at work.  That is to say, if it can be ascertained that FSUW mostly always place their offspring first forever, then that will be an important input to the man.

I/O, Blues Fairy, and Doll are three who make definite statements on this subject.  It would be helpful if others would make similar definite statements without obfuscating.

Blues Fairy, sorry I didn't acknowledge your definite statement before and my apology to others whose definite statements I didn't quote here.  Perhaps you can now repost them in short and clear form.
Mars man looking for Venus woman.

Offline I/O

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #172 on: October 24, 2009, 04:04:17 PM »
There is no denying that the bond between mother and child is going to be significant, if not over bearing in a second marriage, being fellow immigrants would only increase that bond.
Ken: I come at this from a 5o angle. My second marriage, Mrs first but she had a young child when we met. Significant? Usual. Definitely not overbearing. Immigrant factor. Nil. Same as she was in Russia when we first met.

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I think a man would be foolish to think he would ever come before his step child.  At least while that step child is young.
Any child requires (IMO) significant attention from the mother, particularly in the first few years. Fathers who fail to recognise this (step child or natural child) should think seriously about NOT being fathers. Honestly, I think this whole question of first or second is a somewhat misplaced question. Times, the child tops out. Times I top out and yet other times her needs are greater than both ours together and I make every effort (somewhat inadequately at times I dare say) to insure she has the attention she needs and is entitled to. It's a balance for balanced people.   

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On the flip side, I always have been of the opinion that a woman from the fsu might find the transition to America somewhat less daunting if she had brought a child with her.
America, Australia or anywhere else. Don't know about that one Ken, you've commented on that for years, I've listened, I've been through it and I am not yet convinced but by the same token, I'm not saying you're wrong. I guess, I don't think the difference in my case is significant enough to make an issue of.

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Also the child would ease some of her homesickness.
Having been in a relationship with someone who moved here of her own accord without children and now with Mrs I/O who came here basically for me and with a child, I think this one is very personality dependant. On balance, the evidence I have might come out slightly on the side of your supposition but gee, it's a hard call to make if I'm looking for significant difference.

the only person truly qualified to answer was someone that brought 2 women here, one single and the other with child (ren).
Basically I have, although one was here more as a medium term tourist and we spent the better part of a year together. Honestly, again, I've seen little difference. IMO personality dependant.

Hopefully my kid(s) will learn to do the same.
They will if...................................................... ;) You're holding all the aces right now, play your hand well. Like Ken, I am very confident you will.

Offline KenC

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #173 on: October 24, 2009, 06:24:48 PM »
Thanks for weighing in on this I/O.  I did not realise you had been on both sides of this discussion.  Sounds like a "push" to me.  I have to also agree that this depends completely on the lady's personality and attitudes.  Hope all is well down under for you.
KenC
You are a den of vipers and thieves-Andrew Jackson on banks
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

Offline Doll

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Re: Who comes first: Spouse or children
« Reply #174 on: October 24, 2009, 08:04:10 PM »
I just want to clarify one thing about Doll and Blue - Doll has the kid who is a step son to her husband while Blue and her husband share the child. It does make a big difference. I agree to her about "children grow and go" but before my son grows and goes I put him first anyway. Him, his brother and the rest of the family.

 

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