Russian Police Corruption

[OlgaH]

Chicken vs. egg. 
When people are given freedom and ownership, they learn responsibility very quickly.

For example people in Russia are free to make their choice "to bribe or not to bribe". Another phrase by Novodvorskaya is "silent person" means a person who agrees".

The cops, by the way, have a quota of arrests and criminal charges; not meeting the quota results in salary cuts or firing. They are literally forced to grab innocent people when they are short on their quota.  

IMO it is a strange justification.  It seams Russian cops prefer to grab innocent people than to champion their cops professional interests including fighting against "absurd of quota"

[Blues Fairy]

For example people in Russia are free to make their choice "to bribe or not to bribe". Another phrase by Novodvorskaya is "silent person" means a person who agrees".  

IMO it is a strange justification.  It seams Russian cops prefer to grab innocent people than to champion their cops professional interests including fighting against "absurd of quota"

It's not a justification, just a fact.  It's easy to discuss how to fight against corruption while sitting in an armchair - but it's quite another thing to go out and actually do it.  That cop had a pregnant wife (whom he sent away just before his video address).  To bribe or not to bribe, to grab or not to grab innocent people - sometimes it's a non-choice if your survival and the survival of your kids depends on it. 

Corruption is not something lone quixotic warriors can defeat - its elimination requires thorough reform of the system, top to bottom.  But what do we expect if the very top is rotten through and through. 

[Sculpto]

2012isFiction thank you for not opening my eyes, ok? I got used to open and close them myself 

RW.. it wasn't you at all I wanted to have a discussion with.  Don't trip. 

[OlgaH]

It's not a justification, just a fact.  It's easy to discuss how to fight against corruption while sitting in an armchair - but it's quite another thing to go out and actually do it.  That cop had a pregnant wife (whom he sent away just before his video address).  To bribe or not to bribe, to grab or not to grab innocent people - sometimes it's a non-choice if your survival and the survival of your kids depends on it.  

Corruption is not something lone quixotic warriors can defeat - its elimination requires thorough reform of the system, top to bottom.  But what do we expect if the very top is rotten through and through.  

I have never been asked for a bribe but if it happened I would report as some people do. Look for news how many bureaucrats in Russian lost their jobs and  how many criminal proceedings were instituted against them when some people's reports. I was once offered a bribe but I said "no" And it was only my choice. My office cleaner had salary less than a law rank cop, but she never took even 10 kopeks left on my working table. She even put small change on my table if she found some on the floor. And it was only her choice.

Do you think democracy in America was established just because a "good government" suddenly came from a heaven or it was people who fought for their rights to have a democracy.

From US history "Boston Police Strike"
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1348.html

[Blues Fairy]

Do you think democracy in America was established just because a "good government" suddenly came from a heaven or it was people who fought for their rights to have a democracy.

Where did I say good government came from heaven?
But the Founding Fathers had very good insight into the corrupting nature of power and instituted rules to limit it.  Imagine what would become of the USA if people like Putin (or Obama ) were allowed in power for longer than 4 years.  Russia's corruption has roots in the Soviet system and its continuity into Putin's time is no surprise; it will require a grass-roots revolution or a charismatic leader (or both) to clean up the mess.  But I don't think the mess is inherent to the Russians' character; no.  People are used to it, but not happy with it. 

P.S. I was once let go from a company for failing to give a bribe to the customer's CEO.  Can't say I was very sorry to go. 

[OlgaH]

Bluse Fairy if you look for a corruption history in Russia you will find that it is not rotted in Soviet time. It was long before the Soviet time, it goes since Tsars time.  Why? People first should learn how to uphold their rights.

It is not just a government in America and not only Founding Father. It is people who build the country and choose their government.  

People are used to it, but not happy with it.

and what happened in 1917 in Russia?  

[Blues Fairy]

It is not just a government in America and not only Founding Father. It is people who build country and choose their government.

Don't forget that America was founded by settlers who ran away from the monarchy, and started fighting against it almost immediately.  A rather unique situation. No other country is predicated on the supremacy of individual rights and freedoms. 

Of course I agree with your statement that people should learn to fight for their individual rights - I just find it in a slight contradiction with your other statement - that before they learn not to piss in elevators they deserve to be ruled with an iron hand.  Freedom should be a default, not a prize earned by model behavior. 

[BillyB]

Dead man walking.....does he actually believe Putin isn't aware of this?

He knows Putin is aware. He had a hand in the corruption and he's trying to get the weight off his chest, the burden off his back and redeem himself.

Wherever he ends up, I wish him well. Putin is going to get a good read on public reaction and then take action. If the public looks at the cop as a hero and patriot who cares about the welfare of Russia, Putin will speak highly of him for caring, pat him on the back and make promises again to combat corruption in law enforcement. If the public reacts little or unfavorably because the cop put Russia in a bad international spotlight, he will not last long. Bad cops are in control. Good cops need to watch their back after this incident. They can't afford to have too many good cops come out with confessions or their gig is up.

[OlgaH]

Don't forget that America was founded by settlers who ran away from the monarchy, and started fighting against it almost immediately.  A rather unique situation. No other country is predicated on the supremacy of individual rights and freedoms.  

That's what I'm talking about. America built by people with a mentality that is different from Russian. Whole history of Russia shows that there never were any democracy.   It will take the generations to change the mentality of majority of Russian population and then they will be able to have the government they deserve.

1917 year - People were fighting actually for the freedom and democratic ideas. Why it turned to be that they again were living under totalitarian regime?  Because the majority actually did not understand what freedom is. American women fought for their rights. The Soviet government were enough smart to give the women their rights right away   - in such case the women would not need to learn how to fight

[JR]

it was people who fought for their rights to have a democracy.

Olga, the United States of America is a Republic. We have certain democratic principles in how we go about our voting process, that is all. 

As Benjamin Franklin was leaving Indepandance Hall on the final day of the Con Con of 1787 he was asked what form of government we have. He replied "A Republic, if you can keep it."

[Blues Fairy]

1917 year - People were fighting actually for the freedom and democratic ideas.

The Bolshevik coup? For freedom and democratic ideas?! 

[OlgaH]

The Bolshevik coup? For freedom and democratic ideas?! 

Yes, if you look for ideas of the revolution. Why the ideas were not realized and why for example the elections during the Soviet time was just an imitation is the other story 

[OlgaH]

it was people who fought for their rights to have a democracy.

Olga, the United States of America is a Republic. We have certain democratic principles in how we go about our voting process, that is all. 

JollyRats if I will rephrase:

it was people who fought for their rights to have a freedom of political expression, freedom of speech, freedom of the press...

Will it be more understandable? 

[Blues Fairy]

Yes, if you look for ideas of the revolution. Why the ideas were not realized and why for example the elections during the Soviet time was just an imitation is the other story 

The ideas of the Bolsheviks were Marxist and Communist, very far from the classical liberalism of the Founding Fathers. At first, "freedom of expression, unity of action"; but as soon as they found themselves in power, any dissent was squashed altogether.  It was a class warfare and an autocratic machine, not a fight for freedom and democracy.

[OlgaH]

The ideas of the Bolsheviks were Marxist and Communist, very far from the classical liberalism of the Founding Fathers. At first, "freedom of expression, unity of action"; but as soon as they found themselves in power, any dissent was squashed altogether.  It was a class warfare and an autocratic machine, not a fight for freedom and democracy.

I don't disagree with you.
Yes, ideas of the revolution included freedom of speech, freedom of press,  and other freedoms. Do you remember Lenin's decrees in 1918 about freedom of religion and freedom of nations for self-determination  And people accomplished the revolution believing in the ideas. 

Many bright individuals who supported the ideas were disappointed after. Have you read the letter's by Gorky to Stalin?

Why the autocratic machine took it place? Probably of "majority aggressive-submissive mass" ... (as Novodvorskaya said) 

[JR]

JollyRats if I will rephrase:

it was people who fought for their rights to have a freedom of political expression, freedom of speech, freedom of the press...

Will it be more understandable? 

LOL, they had all those things. They could speak their political minds in the written and spoken word. True they could not write "Death to the King" but you can't do that now. What they did not have was representation in the legally constituted government.

What you don't seem to understand is the difference between a Democracy and a Republic. Thats OK, most Americans don't know that America is a Republic and not a Democracy either so you're in the majority.

You can have freedom of speech, freedom of press and political expression within any form of government, although Dictatorships tend to be short-lived if people are allowed to congregrate and talk openly....but it has nothing to with the form of government.

[Ludmila]

JR, is the Federal Reserve a republic, democracy or a short-lived dictatorship ?

I would love to hear BF opining.

[RussianWind]

but its current structure will not survive the next 15 years unless it's thoroughly reformed.  

  Things go better, not worse. Any reform paralyze economical process, it's a living organism. What we need is stability (not changing rules of the game) because businessmen make project plans far in advance. They need a guarantee that after they invest sources into business, it won't be ruined with new rules.

The brief period of prosperity was achieved due to favorable prices on natural resources (that's what had allowed the Brezhnev's regime to survive so long, back in the 70s and 80s), but the property system, the infrastructure, the banking system, the welfare system, the judicial system were not reformed to support long-term growth.  

This is what I am trying to tell you. To start getting fruits, you first need to grow a tree. It needs certain period of time.

Your argument that Russia has some kind of "special way" not comparable with the rest of the world does not stand ground.

It is compatible as well as an orange is compatible with a tennis ball - both are yellow, round and can be used in a game but made from completely different products.

There are two ways: free market which works, and state-controlled economy which does not.  

C'mon. Do you want to say there is no free market in Russia?  
Some sectors must be controlled due to their specific character. No, it's not oil. It's gas and military production.

And who will call China not successful today? They have nice mixture there. But no, I don't say we should have the same model.

And what is the state-controlled economy by your difinition? Some sectors need to be licenced and regulated by the state in any country. In the US it is:

Broadcasting
Manufacturing tobacco alcohol, or firearms
Drug manufacturing
Preparing meat products
Ground transportation
Selling firearms
Investment advising

Yes, ideas of the revolution included freedom of speech, freedom of press,  and other freedoms. Do you remember Lenin's decrees in 1918 about freedom of religion and freedom of nations for self-determination   And people accomplished the revolution believing in the ideas.  

Many bright individuals who supported the ideas were disappointed after.

Olga I agree with you that the original ideas (motives) were not bad and I want to believe they wanted the best for the country. The problem was that they didn't expect that planned economy was not going to work and a cook actually can't rule the country due to lack of education. Commitment to the Party became more important than real knowledge, key positions went to idiots.

[OlgaH]

What you don't seem to understand is the difference between a Democracy and a Republic. Thats OK, most Americans don't know that America is a Republic and not a Democracy either so you're in the majority.

What I understand that you don't understand what I was talking about. Freedoms that I have mentioned are essential part of a democracy.

The Government of the United States is a Federal Constitutional Republic, the Government of the Soviet Union was a Federal Socialist Republic (Soviet Republic), the government of the Russian Federation is a Federal semi-presidential republic.

So, Ludmila have already asked the question  

 although Dictatorships tend to be short-lived if people are allowed to congregrate and talk openly....but it has nothing to with the form of government.

And how you imagine the freedoms of speech and press to be allowed under the dictatorship (an autocratic form of government)  

[OlgaH]

key positions went to idiots.

Oh, no RussianWind, they were not idiots, they were geniuses, evil geniuses   Because idiots would not be able to create such a "machine" that would help them to hold whole country, millions of people, in their hands by ideology and fear.

[SANDRO43]

Oh, no RussianWind, they were not idiots, they were geniuses, evil geniuses 

Maybe Yosip Vissarionovic was, but Nikita, Leonid et al. simply stepped into the driver's seat after having watched Yosip perform for MANY years. It's called learning by example, no great amount of genius required .

[OlgaH]

Maybe Yosip Vissarionovic was, but Nikita, Leonid et al. simply stepped into the driver's seat after having watched Yosip perform for MANY years. It's called learning by example, no great amount of genius required .

Sandro, I agree with you. But he was enough smart to win a victory over Malenkov. The "machine" perfectly worked even after Stalin (though Nikita dismantled Stalin's cult, and btw he and Malenkov was Stalin's favorites). Nikita was dismissed form his post while he had a vacation and during 20 years his name was unmentioned as Stalin's name. After the Stalin's death almost all the general secretaries were just "puppets". Do I need to mention Leoned Brezhnev  

One Stalin's phrase before his death was "The epoch of geniuses comes to the end, the epoch of idiots begins".

[BC]

There is no corruption in southern Italy..

A friend of mine and I were driving around town.

We got stopped for a normal control.

He had no drivers license.. neither did I.. but he was from out of town..

So they sent us home to get my drivers license..

We drove back (the guy with no DL still driving), they wrote down my license in their log and sent us on our merry way..

another...

I was driving to take the trash to the communal trash bins..

Another 'control stop' at the trash bins..

I had no drivers license, no insurance papers and no car registration (my car was still registered in Germany and my wallet at home)..

Cop asked me to get out of the car..
 
I was driving barefoot and the street was very hot.. not to mention driving barefoot was also illegal.

I danced around a bit keeping my feet cool, offered to go back home and bring him the car papers and drivers license..

The Cop looked at me and basically said 'get out of here.. you're too much work'..

In any case, under the same circumstances in FSU I wouldn't have any problem at all forking over a few rubles..

[OlgaH]

In any case, under the same circumstances in FSU I wouldn't have any problem at all forking over a few rubles..

A few hundred rubles or a few thousand rubles  

[Blues Fairy]

Some sectors must be controlled due to their specific character. No, it's not oil. It's gas and military production.
Olga I agree with you that the original ideas (motives) were not bad and I want to believe they wanted the best for the country.

Well, after such statements I don't see the point in continuing the discussion.