western men of above average income??

[Gator]

I don't have a horse in this race, yet I would like to say something to correct what I see as a misinterpretation.

Got'cha TG, high-roller in FSU, speedee-weenie specials at home. Got the drift.

If you had followed TG's years of trials and tribulations on the FSU front, the last word that would apply to TG is high-roller. 

As for the whole cost valuation segment of the discussion, gotcha there too...it was a simple case of you being serious but not really... 

Again, it was abundantly apparent that TG was serious.  I see it as his requirements were high, particularly high.  If you are going out of your league, why stop at AAA.  Go for the Major Leagues.  Add to that a failed relationship or two and the obstacle of moving to Beaver Falls.  What was originally conceived as a one or two-year plan ended up going year after year after year.

500 Mil is still a lot of coins to dole out for that type of slef-finding enrichment program, for me anyway. I definitely don't belong in that league.. .

I would expect people to accept TG's estimate and not some back of the envelop calculation made by an observer.  It would have been more than 500k if TG had done the same for all of his trips as GQ did for his single Moscow trip.


 

[SANDRO43]

MickeyDee's has a more varied menu in Russia than the US.  So maybe this is what Turbo meant by lunch at MickeyDee's?   

B*stards, beer is the most alcoholic thing they offer here .

[GQBlues]

I don't have a horse in this race, yet I would like to say something to correct what I see as a misinterpretation.

Well, not quite Gator

It's is pretty obvious now that the discussion I was having with TG were not coming from the same 'premise'. We were discussing the viability of anyone with an annual earning of 0-49,999.00 (50K). At least I thought it was pretty clear that the lone source of annual earning (liquidity, income, etc) is 50K. Void of capital gains, assets, offshore accounts, etc. that's  complimenting the figure of 50K. It is now apparent TG didn't understand this (my) premise - maybe.

So the original question was: Will a person making 50K/yr (void of any other source of revenue) able to afford this? I said, I'm sure many can and do, but if it was me, I wouldn't do it. Then cited why.

TG says he didn't agree with me. LOL.

Will a person 'making only' 50K/year afford the type of adventure TG experienced W/OUT any other form of revenue to compliment the associated expense he shed? You decide...

The 500 Mil was a typo. I meant to say .5 Mil, as the speculated amount BC noted above. Pro-rated from his total decade of searching, if that number is somewhat 'true', then that's roughly 50K/yr...in my league, shedding 50K/year, 10 years running, just to 'date' women is being a high roller to me.

IIRC, my first trip, start-finish, all expenses accounted for (including the 900 bucks I paid for the cats sitter, 1.000 rubles/report on the hotel puter, etc...) I believe was roughly around 15-18K. It would've been more had my office not foot the bills for the hotel costs, rooms, etc...


....as for McDees, yes, McRice, McKamote, McSeaweed, etc...seem rather funny to me before too. Ronnie have a deep sense of catering to local demands.   Speedee weenees is how we use to call fast-food junkies.

[GQBlues]

Strange post GQ. You hitting the sauce a little early today? I agree with you that skiing is great fun but where in the world did that come from. I see no discussion of skiing or anything that would lead to that comment in the thread anywhere.

Yes, I agree, skiing is wonderful! Do you ski? I'm not very good       but I sure love the sport! But yes, it wasn't part of 'our' discussion. It was being discussed between Boethius, SJ and Remiel. I'm suprised you didn't get confused with the 'Great post BillyB!' part too, just above the 'skiing' comment, wondering how that fell in our discussion as well. LOL.

As for the wedding pics, we haven't received them from the photographer yet. They said it normally takes 5-10 years to ship and get them to us. What can you do?...the wedding was held in Uzbekistan, so likely via camel express...

[Turboguy]

Well, not quite Gator

It's is pretty obvious now that the discussion I was having with TG were not coming from the same 'premise'. We were discussing the viability of anyone with an annual earning of 0-49,999.00 (50K). At least I thought it was pretty clear that the lone source of annual earning (liquidity, income, etc) is 50K. Void of capital gains, assets, offshore accounts, etc. that's  complimenting the figure of 50K. It is now apparent TG didn't understand this (my) premise - maybe.

So the original question was: Will a person making 50K/yr (void of any other source of revenue) able to afford this? I said, I'm sure many can and do, but if it was me, I wouldn't do it. Then cited why.

TG says he didn't agree with me. LOL.

As I recall I was dragged into this as an example of what a protracted search could cost and not because of any particular income level but since you bring that part up my income during some of those search years would have been in a sub $ 50,000 category and in the rest would have been there on an after tax basis but slightly higher on a pretax basis, still close enough.   My accountant used to give me a hard time because I wanted to make less and he wanted me to make more.  Somewhere in those years I gave in a bit.

[Turboguy]

Yes, I agree, skiing is wonderful! Do you ski? I'm not very good  

As for the wedding pics, we haven't received them from the photographer yet. They said it normally takes 5-10 years to ship and get them to us. What can you do?...the wedding was held in Uzbekistan, so likely via camel express...

Yes, GQ, I ski and it is wonderful and I also am not very good.  I haven't gone for a while.   My last couple of trips to the slopes were for tubing.  Every try it?

We will all be looking forward to the photos when the camel arrives.

[Lily]

For a guy who is 40ish and face it, most in this caper are, the income level isn’t the issue, the asset base is. If he, as some of us are, is sitting on real assets of $2 or $3 or $4 million or more and little or no debt, his income at $50K / year is worth a lot more to you as his potential lovely than a guy on $100K / year with a debt level of $500K on an asset base of $750K.
 

That's interesting. Could you plese elaborate for me RW why having worthwile assets and no debts is preferred to having a good income with debts?

In your picture, his debts exceed his annual salary 5 times. My guess would be that this huge debt might result from mortgage, he acquired a house. Hopefully his salary will grow in next years. If he wisely refinances his mortgage, in some years he may be debt free and with good asset. Additionally, his good salary probably means that he is a highly educated professional, probably an executive, which would in many cases undermine an interesting personality.

[BC]

That's interesting. Could you plese elaborate for me RW why having worthwile assets and no debts is preferred to having a good income with debts?

In your picture, his debts exceed his annual salary 5 times. My guess would be that this huge debt might result from mortgage, he acquired a house. Hopefully his salary will grow in next years. If he wisely refinances his mortgage, in some years he may be debt free and with good asset. Additionally, his good salary probably means that he is a highly educated professional, probably an executive, which would in many cases undermine an interesting personality.

Lily,

When a man hits 45, his salary has probably already peaked.. I wouldn't count on salary growing.. if it does great, but don't count on it.

[Lily]

Lily,

When a man hits 45, his salary has probably already peaked.. I wouldn't count on salary growing.. if it does great, but don't count on it.

Is age discrimination among salaried executives an issue in the US?

[Misha]

When a man hits 45, his salary has probably already peaked.. I wouldn't count on salary growing.. if it does great, but don't count on it.

Depends on the man's career and where he works.

[Gator]

That's interesting. Could you plese elaborate for me RW why having worthwile assets and no debts is preferred to having a good income with debts?

There would be less risk, hence more financial stability.

In your picture, his debts exceed his annual salary 5 times. My guess would be that this huge debt might result from mortgage, he acquired a house.

One of the sources of our current economic problems is that lenders relaxed their covenants.  Many years ago, lenders would issue a mortgage for an amount equal to not more than 2.5x the borrower's salary.

Hopefully his salary will grow in next years.

Many successful people have borrowed up to their eyeballs in debt because they could earn a greater return on the borrowed amount than the interest charged by the lender.  When the economy went south, that changed. 

If he wisely refinances his mortgage, in some years he may be debt free and with good asset.

Refinancing does not reduce debt unless it lowers the interest rate.  In today's economy, one should expect that interest rates will only increase, perhaps substantially, over the next 5 years or so. If rates do decline, it will be because the economy has not recovered, and that would be bad.

Frequently when someone refinances, they borrow even more money (increase the mortgage) by using the price appreciation of the home as equity.   That worked until 2007 when prices started to decline rather than rise.  Many heavily leveraged borrowers were soon "under water" (they owed more money than the house would sell for).   They walked away and the lenders foreclosed.  There was a lot of crazy stuff in different forms, resulting in the severe economic downturn.   

Additionally, his good salary probably means that he is a highly educated professional, probably an executive, which would in many cases undermine an interesting personality.

I assume you did not mean 'undermine;'  perhaps 'suggest.'   In any event successful executives typically are smart, decisive, serious, ambitious, and hard working.  The best are good with people.  However, some can be tyrants and dictators.   At age 45 good executives will see their income accelerate until they reach their maximum level of competency, at which point they are sacked (fired) and replaced with a younger and hungrier wolf or their position eliminated  in a corporate downsizing. 

[Lily]

Thanks for your knowledgeable answers Gator 

Do the 45 and up men leave their posts willingly, or are there some nasty intracorporate fights of hungrier younger wolves with senior executives who don't want to resign? My guess would be that many lawsuits arise out of this...

[SANDRO43]

Do the 45 and up men leave their posts willingly, or are there some nasty intracorporate fights of hungrier younger wolves with senior executives who don't want to resign?

Lily, I don't know much about current corporate dynamics, but up to 1969 they were said to be governed by:

which postulated that "In a Hierarchy Every Employee Tends to Rise to His Level of Incompetence: in a hierarchy, members are promoted so long as they work competently. Sooner or later they are promoted to a position at which they are no longer competent (their "level of incompetence"), and there they remain, being unable to earn further promotions" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle .

The book also explained interesting dynamics like the lateral arabesque (promotion to a dead-end position, cut off from any power) and sublimative percussion (being kicked upstairs), the latter inspired by the plethora of Vice Presidents then existing at David Sarnoff's RCA.

But this applied to a more affluent era, I expect things to be harsher now.

My guess would be that many lawsuits arise out of this...

That'd depend on the contract they signed when they were appointed executives, I'd guess .

[Makkin]

   Simple economics should be simple to understand.


   It's not how much money you make but rather how much you "don't" spend.


   I personally save and save until I "need" or "want" to spend money. Since I payed cash to build my home it was one of those times to "spend" money.
   Those persons who make 500,000 per year usually spend a large amount yearly and when troubles come they tend to not have great savings potential. On the other hand Donald Trump has gone bankrupt several times and into the billions but he knows how to use the "system".


   One thing is for sure in my life and that's the "fact" that I won't be bidding on any fsu woman and how much of my earnings she expects to get to enhance her life. I've decided against fsu women at this time and will only date AMERICAN WOMEN....lol


   Good luck to you all in this venture and may you "all" find a happy ending. For myself I'll choose the all american girl.


Makkin

   

[GQBlues]

At age 45 good executives will see their income accelerate until they reach their maximum level of competency, at which point they are sacked (fired) and replaced with a younger and hungrier wolf or their position eliminated  in a corporate downsizing.

That's the nature of the beast. There's always that looming possibility that anything can happen at anytime. I was recruited and hired a few years back to help run and manage the company I currently work for. However, in exchange for my services, I asked for contingencies to protect myself. I took the position on the condition it had a quasi-CEO clause (24/6+10), an annual wage re-evaluation starting on the 25th month (to ensure my salary is on par with my peers), a 401K and guaranteed bonus packages.

Do the 45 and up men leave their posts willingly, or are there some nasty intracorporate fights of hungrier younger wolves with senior executives who don't want to resign? My guess would be that many lawsuits arise out of this...

CEO clauses had made this irrelevant. In some instances, Execs actually find themselves in better financial positions when they do get ushered out than continue working..For some companies, they are better off paying out the clauses and give younger Execs the management reins but with relative smaller employment packages. It's a win-win situation and potential expensive litigation costs avoided.

[Sculpto]

Is age discrimination among salaried executives an issue in the US?

Lily.. you ask good questions.

Debt load.. I know several people who had for years lived beyond their means.  Somehow they managed to keep it all together paying for mortgage, car loans, credit card bills etc.. then the doodoo hit the fan about 12-18 months ago and they lost almost everything.  One family literally did lose everything.  Husband, wife, four teenagers.. living in a hotel room.. no one will even rent to them at this point.  They were living in a five bedroom house before.. had four cars... they will NEVER recover financially... well unless the kids decide to dig their parents out of the gigantic hole they created.  The funny thing is.. when they were afloat.. I totally wondered how they were doing it.. the reality was.. they weren't doing it.. it was all borrowed. 

High stress level is associated with the above lifestyle.

On the other hand.. some people have chosen to live within their means.. avoiding credit and paying cash for things.  Sure, they are driving an old Toyota instead of a Benz.. sure they live in a modest house in a modest area.. no they don't take expensive 5 star vacations.. but they are stable and secure.

Low stress level is associated with the above lifestyle.

As far as age discrimination it totally depends on the industry.  I would actually say this is becoming a more serious problem than it used to be.  I am lucky that in my industry higher age is typically considered an asset as experience in my field is the single most important selling point.  Its hard for home owners with million dollar plus houses and kitchen remodeling jobs worth 50-100,000 can trust someone in their 20s with little experience to properly organize and design their projects.  But, in many other fields, especially technology, these days youth is a very big asset and older more seasoned professionals are having a harder time.  I have a friend who is a banking exec who was laid off about 24 months ago.  He is in his 50's and can not get hired.  It might be in part because he is demanding too much money, but, younger candidates are getting hired for the position.

Truly rich people are in a different set of parameters.  But by truly rich I mean people worth multi millions and more.  Most of those that I know who are in such situations actually live surprisingly modestly.  They indulge in certain things, but, tend not to spend outrageously.  Look up the "hipster" term "flashpacker" and you can get an idea of the demographic I am talking about.

[Aloe]

It is individual if someone with a certain income can afford courting and marrying a RW. My husband was unemployed, finishing his education when we met. Because he worked a couple of years before that and put away every single penny he earned, while living with his parents, so he had enough money to afford us a trip to Thailand for our first meeting and 2 trips to Russia, collecting the documents (too expensive!), wedding, 3 months deposit for our apartment, some furniture, and we still have some money left just in case. His mom did help us A LOT though, but i think we would have been fine even then. I guess its because we didnt spend anything at all on our wedding, no dress and dinner was paid for by his mom, and health insurance is cheap + language courses are free here, but im just saying, its possible to do it with little money, if 2 people are in love and wanna be together no matter what   we even skipped the fiance visa and got married on tourist visa, that was risky cuz there was a possibility they wouldnt marry us or make me leave the country after marrying to apply for proper visa, but it all worked out, and we didnt have to sign any forms saying we waive the right to apply for social help for a few years and avoided all the government checks that a fiance visa request would have caused, like checking your salary and etc. So, where there is will, there is a way :p
(by the way, dont get any ideas about marrying on tourist visas, that only works in belgium :p )

[Aloe]

Now he works and earns 16k euro a year, cant say that its enough, but we have food, clothes, no debts and a very nice apartment. And we have each other Sometimes i feel really unhappy for not being able to buy anything i want, but most of the time im happy, because i have the best guy in the world who loves me and absolutely nothing to worry about

[Aloe]

But this has been a good experience for becoming more mature. There is a good phrase, that comes to my mind, "we are only as unhappy as we choose to be", and that is absolutely true, so why choose to be unhappy? Better be happy

[Aloe]

As far as marrying for "better lifestyle", i dont think i got in a better situation here, than at home. At home my parents would take care of me, i didnt have to do  a single thing, and they would give me money to spend on anything i like, like 500 dollar swimsuits or 300 dollar shoes (silly dutch keyboard, not only does it have a different letter layout, there is no dollar sign). And now i have to count money and cant afford any kind of expensive clothes, plus i have to cook every day, clean, do the groceries (by foot, its heavy, ugh), and all other things. The apartment is nicer than our moscow apartment though. Lol. Honestly, when i set out to look for somebody abroad to marry, i wanted someone who earns decent money, but as i met with some older guys, i just didnt find myself attracted enough to them, so i knew i wouldnt love them no matter how hard i wanted to make myself. Id grow to have an affection for them, sure, kind of endearment, but not love, and in the end i thought id probably be unhappy, so now im poor and happy most of the time haha

[BC]

Aloe,

You're doing just fine.

Many EU countries do have a way of spreading things out a bit, housing subsidies, heating oil subsidies, health insurance, even children subsidies, a wide social 'net' that can keep you going when times get really rough.  Also if you're working it's not so frowned upon regardless of a low income.  A good thing also is that unless you live in a really big city there are no real slums with living quarters really distributed throughout.  Your neighbor might be a millionaire and it really doesn't make a difference that you live on the same street.

If you take your current salary situation, you would have to probably double or triple it to live at the same lifestyle you have now on the other side of the Atlantic.

You are also IIRC a young couple, so youth alone makes for huge potential.

Believe it or not, in Germany back in 1984 we started out at a very low income, and our only means of transportation was a bicycle. Add two kids and one on the way.  We did just fine.

 

[brave girl]

If a woman can be poor and happy, she has plenty of struggling RM to choose from for a husband.  There is no need to leave home. 

EXACTLY CORRECT!!! 

On the other hand.. some people have chosen to live within their means.. avoiding credit and paying cash for things.  Sure, they are driving an old Toyota instead of a Benz.. sure they live in a modest house in a modest area.. no they don't take expensive 5 star vacations.. but they are stable and secure.

Again I ask, what kind of family?

Why leave mum and all others for family life with no money old broken machine ancient house and pensioner?? what to tell child?? sorry  

Also silly men do not speak of BIG LOVE in this situation it is impossible!!  brave girl

[Aloe]

Aloe,

You're doing just fine.

Many EU countries do have a way of spreading things out a bit, housing subsidies, heating oil subsidies, health insurance, even children subsidies, a wide social 'net' that can keep you going when times get really rough.  Also if you're working it's not so frowned upon regardless of a low income.  A good thing also is that unless you live in a really big city there are no real slums with living quarters really distributed throughout.  Your neighbor might be a millionaire and it really doesn't make a difference that you live on the same street.

If you take your current salary situation, you would have to probably double or triple it to live at the same lifestyle you have now on the other side of the Atlantic.

You are also IIRC a young couple, so youth alone makes for huge potential.

Believe it or not, in Germany back in 1984 we started out at a very low income, and our only means of transportation was a bicycle. Add two kids and one on the way.  We did just fine.

 

thanks for reassurance,
i found $$$$$$$ sign, yay  

[Makkin]

Aloe,


  That's a really great story....Wishing you and your husband the best of everything.


  p.s....With his savings habits ad yours combined it's gonna be just fine.


Gat4

[Boethius]

Yes, it always makes me wonder how I managed to grow into a functioning adult without the computer games to develop hand eye coordination.   We had none of that stuff and had to do useless things like play baseball, tennis, football, street games and on rainy days things like chess and checkers.  Today's kids are so much luckier to be able to sit in front of their computer screen for hours and hours learning hand/eye coordination.  It will let them grow into healthy adults who spend hours every day sitting in front of the screen playing computer games.  

When you were a kids, old geezers were saying the same about you.  Life changes, society changes, and parents want their children to "fit in".  I never stated children need these things to be "happy".  I merely pointed out that these are things most kids have today, and raising kids on $50K a year would be difficult, even without the luxuries.

Incidentally, computer games are known to stimulate brain activity in areas which improve vision.  No baseball or golf ball can do that.  

As for computers, how many "healthy adults" here spend hours everyday sitting in front of a screen arguing with individuals they don't know?

FTR, most kids who play computer games do other things as well.  My kids and their peers play hockey 4X or more per week, play basketball or indoor soccer throughout the winter, ski at the local hill a few hours (some every night, depending on whether or not they're involved in hockey), and golf/ride bikes/play baseball/soccer all summer.  What most of them don't do is watch much television.

The biggest difference from when I was a kid is that most of the team sports are organized.   Kids do play street hockey (some communities have banned it), but my sons go to the local outdoor rink when it gets cold, because they want to skate.  

I don't think this is the ideal, but it is what it is.

Why leave mum and all others for family life with no money old broken machine ancient house and pensioner?? what to tell child?? sorry  

Also silly men do not speak of BIG LOVE in this situation it is impossible!!  brave girl

Love is very subjective.