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Poll

Do you believe FSU women have the entitlement attitude?

Yes, they certanly do
Possibly, they do
No, they do not

Author Topic: Entitlement Attitude  (Read 46733 times)

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Offline Mars

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #100 on: November 23, 2009, 07:58:22 AM »
Ludmila, thanks for a very excellent and informative post.
Now, I have no way of knowing if what you said is true, but it is very interesting and would explain a lot, if true.
Mars man looking for Venus woman.

Offline Mars

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #101 on: November 23, 2009, 08:04:27 AM »
Mars, I don't know how many women you met but I really feel sorry for you that you have never met any woman with different attitude. You attract a particular type of women, so may be the international dating is not for you?  ;)

Olga, as of right now, the voting is 21 out of 28 for "yes or possibly yes'.  That would win any election.

And, if you subtracted the votes of the women, it would 'probably' be a near unanimous vote.

So that would put me in the company of 'nearly' every man here regarding the attitude of the FSU women we are encountering.

Also, according to what Ludmila has posted, it is practically guaranteed that we  have correctly observed the attitude of 'virtually every' FSU woman.  It is only you and a few others who 'claim' they are different.  Along with the brown nosers, of course.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 08:17:23 AM by Mars »
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Offline Mars

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #102 on: November 23, 2009, 08:08:20 AM »
Therefore, the lady is expected just to say  simply" thank you" ( it was a chance for the man to prove "he qualifies to be a future provider".


Except, they don't say the thank you!!
Mars man looking for Venus woman.

Offline BC

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #103 on: November 23, 2009, 08:12:06 AM »
If we are talking about dating, "she is entitled attitude" means " the man is given a chance to prove to the lady that he qualifies as a future provider". It is a simplification, of course, but , I hope, will throw light on the problem.

But Ludmila.....

The Western Man wants his prospective wife to be grateful..  After the fine coffee he paid for she should be on her knees thanking HIM for giving her the chance to be with him for the scheduled half-hour..  begging him for the next date and crying for one minute more of his precious time before his appointment with the next girl.

Of course he is a qualified provider.. he flew thousands of miles so why question it or need even more proof when his 'dues' have already been paid to airlines and agencies?

------------

I wrote this tongue in cheek.. or did I?  Maybe with forked tongue?..

I do agree quite a bit with the intent of your post.  You indeed carry a bright torch.

Offline BC

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #104 on: November 23, 2009, 08:15:14 AM »
Except, they don't say the thank you!!

Doesn't have to be verbal...  a little smile or flutter of the eyes does the same.  Or of course sex.

Offline OlgaH

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #105 on: November 23, 2009, 09:25:34 AM »
Olga, as of right now, the voting is 21 out of 28 for "yes or possibly yes'.  That would win any election.


Mars,

I care less about the voting especially with vacillating "possible"   :) I did not vote because there is not such a variation as "some do and some do not".

We have a joke in Russia.

A woman choosing a fur coat asks a salesman: "What a discount you will give me?". "Why should I give you any discount?" - the salesman looked at her. "Because of my beautiful eyes" - answered the woman. "OK. Pluck your beautiful eyes out" - agreed the salesman. 

Yes, I have met such women who feel to be entitled unconditionally to her husband's credit card running around fancy shops and spas with an attitude "he owes me for my beauty or there is no any change from pussy". I also have met women who are do their best to be a partner without any attitude.

And it is really doesn't matter if they are from FSU or any other country.

If you ask me about my Russian female friends I will tell you they don't have any entitlement attitude building their carrier and life. 

One day I got an advice from one woman that I should give a birth to child as soon as possible when I come to US because I will be entitled to citizenship. Yeah, that is also a  variety of  entitlement attitude.

When a woman gives birth to child using it as a mean to manipulate her man is also an entitlement attitude as well. And such women exist  irrespective of country and political system.

Offline OlgaH

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #106 on: November 23, 2009, 09:33:35 AM »

The Western Man wants his prospective wife to be grateful..  

I remember I got a letter from one western men with "if you want to be my wife you must do and be..." Isn't it his entitlement attitude?   :rolleyes2:

Offline Gator

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #107 on: November 23, 2009, 09:42:05 AM »

If we are talking about dating, "she is entitled attitude" means " the man is given a chance to prove to the lady that he qualifies as a future provider". It is a simplification, of course, but , I hope, will throw light on the problem.


I agree with much of what you wrote, and in fact find it to reflect much of my experience.  It is also consistent with men seeking a traditional relationship in which the man is the man.

A few discussion points:

1.  Criteria other than being a good provider - While it is mandatory that the man must be perceived as a good provider, surely there is more to her decision making (e. g. physical attraction).  Otherwise she would grab the first provider.   I don't believe most RW are that desperate.

2.  What is included with being a "provider."  It is not limited to life's necessities IMO.  I feel many RW believe that being a provider means that he spends not a small amount on personable items oriented to making her feel beautiful (e. g., fashionable clothing, French cosmetics, etc.).

3. Unacceptable Sense of Entitlement - OlgaH in her above post touches on some beautiful RW feeling entitled to more than dinner.  She expects a man to buy her a gift simply because she is beautiful - she gave him some of her time and he should feel grateful to have been seen with a beauty.  Sounds like such a RW was spoiled by RM with money.  Becoming spoiled by past attention is another phrase for feeling entitled.  This I deem to be an unacceptable level of entitlement.  

The big question:  How much does No. 3 above differ from No. 2?  What is the happy medium?  

It seems obvious to me that the happy medium is the level of spending where both the man and woman are indeed happy.  She feels he is generous and attentive, and he takes pride in seeing how she feels even more beautiful.   I have a feeling that many couples may struggle with striking a happy medium yet eventuall achieve it.

One man may deem a RW to be his fair maiden deserving of his attention and money.  Another man may feel the same woman is  a spolied bytch.

Offline Gator

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #108 on: November 23, 2009, 09:59:07 AM »
With regard to bonuses:

Turboguy - you will usually achieve what you measure.

BluesFairy - do not confuse management prerogative with arbitrariness.  Detailed fixed rules don’t work IMO. 

For example, one salesman may close more sales than another salesman, yet the other salesman spent much of his time landing a new client with unlimited potential over the next several years.  And this other salesman wants to take on new challenges rather than stay around and milk the new client.  When first asked to pursue the new client, he did not object that it would lower his sales volume because he knew management would use its discretion to reward him.  He is a rainmaker, and a company better reward its rainmakers handsomely.   

IMO "demotivation" sounds like "entitlement."
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 10:02:55 AM by Gator »

Offline Dave13

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #109 on: November 23, 2009, 10:32:10 AM »
This forum has over 5000 members and only 29 have voted on this poll, that's not unanimous. And since I voted with the ladies guess that makes me a brown nosers. If guys have such a negative attitude about RW, I suggest you stay in the US and move to Alaska, we have lots of women here with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder, for you. :cluebat:

Dave

Offline Blues Fairy

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #110 on: November 23, 2009, 12:45:40 PM »
BluesFairy - do not confuse management prerogative with arbitrariness.  Detailed fixed rules don’t work IMO. 

For example, one salesman may close more sales than another salesman, yet the other salesman spent much of his time landing a new client with unlimited potential over the next several years.  And this other salesman wants to take on new challenges rather than stay around and milk the new client.  When first asked to pursue the new client, he did not object that it would lower his sales volume because he knew management would use its discretion to reward him.  He is a rainmaker, and a company better reward its rainmakers handsomely.   

IMO "demotivation" sounds like "entitlement."

That's why there should be different rules for bonus allocation for "hunters" vs "gatherers".  People work better when they know the rules of the game.  But when all depends on management prerogative, as you wish to call it, there's too much room for unethical behavior on both sides. 

My comments are based on my observations of the companies I worked for in Russia, both domestic and international.  Perhaps in the land of developed capitalism :) people behave differently. 

Offline Boethius

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #111 on: November 23, 2009, 01:12:49 PM »
I worked for a very short time in a large multinational institution when my children were younger, where bonuses often comprised 25% of total income.  When you have "fixed rules", individuals often game the system to meet the written requirements.  It also can result in a not insignificant amount of self serving, unethical behaviour (which I witnessed and which is why I soon went back to, effectively, self employment).
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 01:14:47 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Sculpto

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #112 on: November 23, 2009, 02:01:04 PM »

There has been a unintentional human experiment on this very subject for many many generations.
research it if you will.you have only to look at the
various indian reservations in the USA.
 it is a very very rare an dspecial  young person that comes out of that enviroment with any work ethic.

it may not be PC to say it ,
 but trust me, i am allowed ;)

What a terrible example.  Your comment is not about being PC or not, it merely reflects ignorance of Native American culture and the cultural imperialism of forced imposition of the Protestant work ethic on a demoralized culture that was, and continues to be, victim of mass genocide that makes what happened to various ethnic groups in the last century minute in comparison. 


Offline Blues Fairy

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #113 on: November 23, 2009, 02:04:17 PM »
I worked for a very short time in a large multinational institution when my children were younger, where bonuses often comprised 25% of total income.  When you have "fixed rules", individuals often game the system to meet the written requirements.  It also can result in a not insignificant amount of self serving, unethical behaviour (which I witnessed and which is why I soon went back to, effectively, self employment).

I haven't seen many examples of employees gaming the system to meet written reqiurements (pretty hard to do so when your sales quota is known and your sales are known, too), but I've seen plenty of examples of management withholding bonuses arbitrarily and, as a result, valuable employees leaving the company.   

Offline Boethius

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #114 on: November 23, 2009, 02:23:49 PM »
It's not hard to do if you learn to manipulate the "system".  I can't tell you how many times I saw people sell products that weren't suitable.  All those sales were for the sole purpose of getting a bonus, and there were other less profitable product lines (not subject to bonuses) that were more appropriate.

Any system can be manipulated and abused, and if you don't think so, then either you didn't spend a significant amount of time in the corporate world, or you are naive.

People leave employment for all sorts of reasons, money being one.  When people leave because of bonuses, that is usually the "face" factor.  Management issues vis a vis human capital are usually the real reason.  I think that is why I agree with TG's post, and I suspect he is an excellent people manager.

After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Mars

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #115 on: November 23, 2009, 02:27:20 PM »
It would be interesting to hear from the FSU W and Men here about the validity of Ludmila's post.

If her post is mostly true, then it gives extremely strong backup to the strong majority vote shown at the top of this thread . . . despite the protestations of those who take offense to the thought.
Mars man looking for Venus woman.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #116 on: November 23, 2009, 02:34:28 PM »
Well, I had my husband read that post.  He said to ask Ludmilla:

1.  Why did 99.99% of FSU women work?

2.  What were the majority of the so called "providers" spending the majority of their money on?

He then did say that he differentiates, to some extent, between Soviets and Russians, but the culture is still largely "Soviet".

He then said "I understand powdering the brains of foreigners with these fairy tales."
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Misha

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #117 on: November 23, 2009, 03:05:56 PM »
Well, I had my husband read that post.  He said to ask Ludmilla:
1.  Why did 99.99% of FSU women work?
2.  What were the majority of the so called "providers" spending the majority of their money on?

He then said "I understand powdering the brains of foreigners with these fairy tales."

LOL! Well said!  :applaud:

Offline RussianWind

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #118 on: November 23, 2009, 03:10:37 PM »
Olga, as of right now, the voting is 21 out of 28 for "yes or possibly yes'.  That would win any election.

I wonder what numbers would be if the question was about American women ;)

By the way I also didn't vote because there was not an appropriate answer in the poll.
It's your problem if you take my posts too seriously.

Offline Gator

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #119 on: November 23, 2009, 03:25:02 PM »
but I've seen plenty of examples of management withholding bonuses arbitrarily and, as a result, valuable employees leaving the company.   

Now that is Stupid with a capital S - a bonus system that makes valuable employees leave. 

I assume this was Russian business.  If so, I suppose management felt entitled to redirect bonuses to themselves rather than pay valuable employees who helped achieve the success that enabled paying a bonus.

Years ago we had a few members doing business with Russian companies.  They told some incredulous stories about the shortsighted, selfish decisions that Russian companies made.

Offline BillyB

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #120 on: November 23, 2009, 04:37:37 PM »
Now that is Stupid with a capital S - a bonus system that makes valuable employees leave. 

I assume this was Russian business. 

Maybe the bonus system worked as intended. Offer bonuses to attract good employees. Hold it back and company keeps the money which was the plan all along. The employee can take it up the butt and continue to work or they can leave in which they are replaced with another motivated worker eager to perform..... for that promised bonus of course!

It's just the way of life in the FSU. I dated a Ukrainian woman who lost her job. She was not paid her last three months salary. I asked if there were a government agency that can help collect her back wages. She said "NO". I said "You don't seem angry over what happen.". She said "It's normal life here".
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #121 on: November 23, 2009, 05:05:34 PM »
I wonder what numbers would be if the question was about American women ;)

Don't knock yourself out about that too much, RW. You must always remember, for RWs and AWs alike, the total number of women who have an obscene sense of entitlement is directly proportionate to the number of AMs who's long on money but short on self-worth.
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Offline Ludmila

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #122 on: November 24, 2009, 12:55:13 AM »
Boethius,

 Your husband , for some reason is asking me, not you, why 99% of women in Russia/ FSU work. I prefer to give him my reply in Russian , please, translate it for him, and everybody else for that matter:

Делу-- время, потехе-- час.

Hope, you won't mind it, if we somewhat devided responsibilities: I'm  saying- you're  translating.  Please, then  tell us what it feels like when brains  are at work ( active) vs idle ( passive).  Hope, he will  get the answer . Deal?

Offline Boethius

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #123 on: November 24, 2009, 01:04:22 AM »
I was responding primarily to Mars, Ludmila, who asked for an answer from FSU women/men.  My husband is from Kyiv, though he lived in Russia for some time.  I am Canadian and lived in Kyiv.  We have been married more than 25 years.  In those days, emigrating, or even marrying a foreigner, was not an easy matter.  It took almost a decade, and the collapse of the FSU, for him to be able to emigrate, though I started the paperwork 3 days after our marriage (special trip to the Canadian embassy, which was then on a "closed" road, and all the Canadian paperwork was completed in less than a month).  Throughout that period, he was a hunted target.

I'll tell him in the morning.  He has no interest in forums, but was home ill today, and is now in bed, recuperating from his illness.  I don't wish to disturb his sleep.

In any event, it was a rhetorical question. 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 01:20:35 AM by Boethius »
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Offline gousa

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Re: Entitlement Attitude
« Reply #124 on: November 28, 2009, 10:29:43 PM »
From my point of view, examples of entitlement attitude hurting a relationship would be an individual demanding from her or his partner to provide a certain level of life style(desired outcome) while s/he contributes little (input) to attaining the necessary  fanatical standing. Or, when a person demands romantic events in his/her relationship, but s/he does little to create the events.  In other words, when a person wants something from his/her life (and that is good), but s/he does not want to make the appropriate efforts to achieve what s/he wants (because that is difficult) and s/he expects others to provide him/her with what s/he *has right to*, I think such behavior is a manifestation of entitlement attitude and it can hurt a relationship, if not submerge the relationship in hell.


Ahhhhhhh,  perfect....at last the perfect description of the former Mrs. gousa, and quite a few others that some of us  have personal knowledge about.

(IMHO)  The way they see it their country has let them down, often the Russian men    and husbands have let them down,  in their opinion life in general has let the RW down.    RW are therefore looking for someone to make it up to them.   And what better place to get payback than from an American?   And if you ever get tired of making it up, look out brother and get ready for hell.  But surely there are some  exceptions to the rule.

 

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