Entitlement Attitude

[Mars]

The way they see it their country has let them down, often the Russian men    and husbands have let them down,  in their opinion life in general has let the RW down.    RW are therefore looking for someone to make it up to them.   And what better place to get payback than from an American?  

Exactly what I am thinking.  We, who had no part in causing their previous problems, are now somehow responsible for fixing it all up.

[OlgaH]

Exactly what I am thinking.  We, who had no part in causing their previous problems, are now somehow responsible for fixing it all up.

I guess we need to start to collect donations for construction of a cathedral "To Mars, an RW's Fixer" 

[Blues Fairy]

Ahhhhhhh,  perfect....at last the perfect description of the former Mrs. gousa

(IMHO)  The way they see it their country has let them down, often the Russian men and husbands have let them down, in their opinion life in general has let the RW down.    RW are therefore looking for someone to make it up to them. 

I'd like to hear how many RW you have personally known, except your ex, to be qualified to judge the plurality of them this way. 

[Ade]

Exactly what I am thinking.  We, who had no part in causing their previous problems, are now somehow responsible for fixing it all up.

Utter bollocks. 

I am amazed at the sweeping generalizations both negative and positive from some of the "men" on this site and you are one of the worse. Here's a generalisation for you; IMO, those that tend to have these weird and wonderful ideas are one or more of the following 1) ignorant because they've little or no experience with FSUW, 2) only been exposed to a very particular and small subset of the FSU population - in a lot of instances because they are fishing for women so far out of their league that they tend to attract that subset, 3) have, from the get go, negative (or conversely, overly positive) expectations and look for everything that will reinforce and confirm those expectations ignoring everything else contrary to that.

Seriously dude, you've shown your contempt for everything FSU why not just leave the site and give up or is it that you happen to like trolling here?

[mies]

Today, while I was reading theories of motivation, I learned that according to a study, the legacy of communism that people in Eastern Europe  have to live with is the rampant entitlement attitude. That is, FSU people expect outcomes to be greater than their inputs. From your experiences, do you believe FSU women have the entitlement attitude?

People with the entitlement attitude typically take for granted what others do for them, and as a result, they often are perceived as ungrateful takers.  I do think there are many people who would dislike to live with an ungrateful taker. Accordingly, many men (maybe even the majority of them) might come to the conclusion that FSU women are not good life partners after living with them for a while. Sadly.

Did your wife asked you for mink coat or diamond necklace as a 2-year anniversary present? 

[Seeker]

Utter bollocks. 

I am amazed at the sweeping generalizations both negative and positive from some of the "men" on this site and you are one of the worse. Here's a generalisation for you; IMO, those that tend to have these weird and wonderful ideas are one or more of the following 1) ignorant because they've little or no experience with FSUW, 2) only been exposed to a very particular and small subset of the FSU population - in a lot of instances because they are fishing for women so far out of their league that they tend to attract that subset, 3) have, from the get go, negative (or conversely, overly positive) expectations and look for everything that will reinforce and confirm those expectations ignoring everything else contrary to that.

Seriously dude, you've shown your contempt for everything FSU why not just leave the site and give up or is it that you happen to like trolling here?

SJ, I have to say, your name does not do you justice.  I think you are one of the enlightened ones here.  Not the only one, but seriously, you do not seem jaded. 

Now my experience with people from the FSU is limited.  I have met and known maybe a dozen.  But I have known (and met) many people from all over the world because of where I have lived and where I have worked.  Not on a hunt for a woman, though I have met and dated women I respected and cared for from many cultures.  And I have learned that you can not generalize about anyone.  Individuals are just that... individual.  Including us so called "Americans" though I think that term ignores the fact there are countries in the Americas that are not the USA, so I try not to use it.

[gousa]

I'd like to hear how many RW you have personally known, except your ex, to be qualified to judge the plurality of them this way. 

Like said, there are surely exceptions to the rule.   Of course one of my reasons for being at RWD is to comiserate so mostly the horror stories and not many of the virtuous stories are familiar to me.  I suppose the AM who seek RW are also looking for a new and better deal in life as well.

The ones in my knowlege are the ones read about here and my ex-wife's  personal circle of RW friends,  who are much like her and a pretty motley crew at that and most are divorced.    But there is one still married, who was
my particular favorite, who disbanded her friendship with my ex-wife announcing her reason as being  my ex-wife's unquenchable thirst for money and high maintenance which in her opinion is crazy.    That RW is cool and she liked me alot and she is still friends with me, not my ex.   

So.. we know what American men talk about which can be seen here at RWD.  What do the crazy RWs (ie: my ex and her friends) talk about when they get together?     My ex wife and her existing whacked out friends talk about what they are going to get from men, and how thery are going to get it.  In particular they talk about meeting someone like Hugh
Heffner so they can be spoiled pampered playpen sugarbabies and have some wealthy old fart take care of them while they strut around looking cute in their G-strings and underwear, and of course get paid well for it.   

Perhaps we should classify RW into two groups, the entitlement group and thank heaven for the other kind.
 

[vwrw]

Did your wife asked you for mink coat or diamond necklace as a 2-year anniversary present? 

Wife? 
Come on, mies. With your intellect, you are capable of better contribution to this subject than a premature judgment.

[Ade]

SJ, I have to say, your name does not do you justice.  I think you are one of the enlightened ones here.  Not the only one, but seriously, you do not seem jaded.  

SJ is an old handle that I'm fond of. It meant something at one time but you're right in that it's not particularly descriptive these days.

I wouldn't describe myself as "enlightened" either although a psychologist friend of mine once complimented me on being the sanest person she knew. Maybe she didn't get out much though?

One thing with the original post is that there are studies and there are real studies. I've seen many that aren't worth much or are so highly speculative or use such a small skewed sample that they cannot or should not be used to draw any real world general conclusions. Also, given the poll results, I can see that given the type of venue that a lot of guys use to look for women, that there may be an inordinate number of women that fit the general "entitlement" profile but that's probably because those type of women tend to gravitate towards those types of places. So, if 80% of women on MOB sites do have an "entitlement complex" one should not extrapolate from that and conclude that 80% of all FSUW have an entitlement complex.

Although I will admit that social welfare states may increase the likelihood of engendering an entitlement complex, I would still say that individuals still need to be predisposed in the first place; genetics and the values instilled in you by your close family will have a bigger impact than the economic system you live in. I'm open to being proven wrong though.

And I'd like to throw this back to VWRW and ask if you feel entitled? If not, why not? How about the other RW here?

[Gator]

 

Perhaps we should classify RW into two groups, the entitlement group and thank heaven for the other kind.
 

There are more than two classifications for RW.

[BillyB]

I posted a phone conversation I had with a RW that happened a few days ago on another thread. Gator recommended I will repost here since this is a better place for it so I shall do so. The RW in this phone conversation told me what she expects or is entitled to from a husband, a boyfriend and a lover.

RW: Hi Billy

Me: Hi RW. So what inspired you to finally return the calls I made to you a couple of weeks ago? I thought you lost interest in me or found someone else.

RW: I didn't want to call because you didn't seem interested in marriage and family.

Me: You probably have me mixed up with another guy or you misunderstood me. I said we should start out as friends and I'm open to having a serious relationship and marriage with the right woman. We've only went out once so it's too early to talk of marriage.

RW: I'm a serious woman and I don't search for just friends or lovers. I want to go with man only for marriage. Why did you divorce your Russian wife?(sizing me up to see if I could qualify being her husband)

Me: You must have me mixed up with another man again. I told you had a Ukrainian wife. I then tell her why we divorced and one reason was because we married to early without truly understanding we were compatible with each other.

RW: Okay, how long will it take you to decide if you want marry? Years, months, weeks or one more date with me?

Me: It would take me months and possibly more than a year. It's best we go out with as friends first and not talk of marriage so soon. I appreciate the fact you are marriage minded but if you marry a guy too quick, you will probably end up divorcing. Remember you told me you agreed to marry within two weeks when first meeting your FSU husband who brought you here?. You have to take some time to know who you're going to marry. Let me ask you some questions. What do you think is a man's and woman's responsibility to each other in marriage?

RW: My man should support me and buy me what I need such as clothes and a car.

Me: What are the responsibilities of the man who's dating you?

RW: Same.

Me: In America it doesn't work that way. We date to learn more about if we could live and share a life together. Sometimes the women even pay for dinners on dates.

RW: If you don't want to marry or you will take long time to decide, I want to make a suggestion. I don't need to go to restaurants or movies. I need support. I don't work and I go to college now. If you don't want marriage and only want to be lovers then I still need help. A man should help his woman.

Me: What kind of help do you need in your life??

RW: About $500 but you can't be jealous if I continue to search for a husband.


Some details about the situation: We had one date. She lives in the next city over which is about a 30 minute drive. An FSU man brought her over here. They married and divorced. No domestic violence involved. She's in college and getting financial assistance from the government. She's been here under 2 years and can stay in America permanently so although she's wanting to get married, she doesn't need a man for a green card. The speed that she wants to get married is what scares me though.

She's honest and straighfoward and business like in what felt like negotiations. She stated clearly what she wanted, marriage and lots of financial and material support, and after she wasn't going to get it from me, she went for plan B and stated she doesn't care about dating or me buying her dinner but she'd rather have the cash money that I would have spent on dating her instead and we could both still take care of our phyiscal needs.

[Boethius]

Me: In America it doesn't work that way. We date to learn more about if we could live and share a life together. Sometimes the women even pay for dinners on dates.

But she's not an AW.  Her expectations are bound to be different.

I don't think this is an entitlement attitude.  She is very frank about her expectations, and limitations, of what would be, in essence, a business relationship. 

[BillyB]

But she's not an AW.  Her expectations are bound to be different.

She is judged by me as an individual, not as a RW. I'm dating another local RW right now and she is VERY HAPPY with me. She has paid for a few dinners on our dates and she is going to make me dinner at her house next time I see her. She has clearly stated she is not looking for marriage. She has never asked me for support of any kind. She likes me for ME. The good news for guys is not all RW are the same. That's also the bad news so choose wisely.

Her expectations are bound to be different.

I don't think this is an entitlement attitude.  She is very frank about her expectations, and limitations, of what would be, in essence, a business relationship. 

From a husband or a boyfriend she expects $, clothes, and a car. That's what she feels entitled to her for being their wife or girlfriend or basically in what's supposed to be a non business relationship. She's certainly more expensive meat compared to the woman who asked for a $700 coat from NickB. My opinion is the RW is not trying to take advantage of me but clearly stating what she deserves in a relationship. She is focused on finding a man to marry. She ignored me for 2 weeks after our first date because she thought I wasn't married minded. She is not a insincere gold digger that only takes from men and accepting every opportunity for a free dinner. Unlike in NickB's situation where he wasn't offered anything in return for a $700 coat, the RW I talked to was willing to give her man the full benefits of her body. I respect her for the fact that all though she is bold enough to tell me what she wants, she was bold enough to tell me exactly what I'm going to get.

From a lover she expects much less from him than she would from a husband/boyfriend. I consider the lover option more of a business relationship to her. She's not entitled to exactly anything in that relationship so things may be negotiable when making a deal with a lover. She may not view a boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife relationship as business but standard practice that a man gives his woman $, cars, and clothes and she's entitled to it. It's non negotiable otherwise she may divorce her man for not doing his duty.

Brave Girl, if you're reading this, what is your opinion on the RW I just had a conversation with? Does she have higher standards than the woman who asked NickB for a $700 coat?

[Boethius]

She is judged by me as an individual, not as a RW.

It was you who referred to her as a "RW".

From a husband or a boyfriend she expects $, clothes, and a car. That's what she feels entitled to her for being their wife or girlfriend or basically in what's supposed to be a non business relationship.

As you stated,  she is basically saying she will have sex with you if you provide X, Y and Z.  That is what she expects in return for the use of her body.  It is not an entitlement.  It is a business arrangement.  

You could certainly find AW with similar attitudes.

Unlike in NickB's situation where he wasn't offered anything in return for a $700 coat, the RW I talked to was willing to give her man the full benefits of her body. I respect her for the fact that all though she is bold enough to tell me what she wants, she was bold enough to tell me exactly what I'm going to get.

He claimed to have been sleeping on top of her for a week.  As I posted there, if she'd asked for a $5 coat, his attitude would have been let's go buy it.  But because she was out of his price range, he threw her out the next morning.

Are these the actions of a decent man?

[GQBlues]

Billy-

There still exist cultures in our world today where if a man wishes to marry a woman, he must first ask the father's permission and bring along offerings for the entire family as a show of his ability and intention to provide for the woman. This is a bit of an extreme sampling but the point is, there exist a cultural divide within us and venturing beyond our own brings possibility the you'll likely need to, or be expected, to abide by other people's cultural ways.

Our cultural norm differs than cited above. But if a man have a need to venture beyond his culture in his search for a wife, then one must expect such differences do in fact exist. You don't go to Bangladesh and expect its peoples to abide by your American cultural norm anymore than they coming here and expect us to do so.

That isn't necessarily a case of entitlement.

[BillyB]

It was you who referred to her as a "RW".

If I said I was dating a "local woman" instead of a "local RW", people could assume I'm dating an American woman. That's why I said RW.

You could certainly find AW with similar attitudes.

Not as often and not as open compared to RW. A lot of American men come here shocked by what they hear from RW when asked point blank for a high dollar gift. Maybe the woman is a gold digger? Maybe she grew up to expect a boyfriend to buy her a car and the question is innocent in her opinion? Who knows? It's best to be safe and I won't buy any woman a car before a second date.

If I proceed with this woman in any type of relationship, I have 3 ways to proceed. 1) Be her husband at a high cost. 2) Be her boyfriend at a high cost. 3) Be her lover at a very low cost but she can leave me at anytime once she finds a husband. I don't need to take a poll to understand which path most men will take.

[BillyB]

There still exist cultures in our world today where if a man wishes to marry a woman, he must first ask the father's permission and bring along offerings for the entire family as a show of his ability and intention to provide for the woman.

Yeah and he saves a lot of money when he doesn't have to date/wine and dine the lady. Just give daddy a couple head of cow and good to go.

This is a bit of an extreme sampling but the point is, there exist a cultural divide within us and venturing beyond our own brings possibility the you'll likely need to, or be expected, to abide by other people's cultural ways.

Our cultural norm differs than cited above. But if a man have a need to venture beyond his culture in his search for a wife, then one must expect such differences do in fact exist.

I've dealt with lots of RW and I'm currently dealing with a handful now. I can assure the readership here that the RW who are bold enough to ask for gifts after the first few days of meeting a man are in the minority and thus it's not the norm in their culture to do so. If a man and woman brings the best his or her culture has to offer, even if they are from the same culture, they will probably have a successful relationship. If they bring the worst, they probably won't last long.

[Boethius]

If I said I was dating a "local woman" instead of a "local RW", people could assume I'm dating an American woman. That's why I said RW.

Point taken.

Not as often and not as open compared to RW. A lot of American men come here shocked by what they hear from RW when asked point blank for a high dollar gift. Maybe the woman is a gold digger? Maybe she grew up to expect a boyfriend to buy her a car and the question is innocent in her opinion? Who knows? It's best to be safe and I won't buy any woman a car before a second date.

There are two issues here, I think.  First, AW are not as open about it, but the attitude certainly exists on this continent.

The second issue is that one of the main problems of Soviet culture was that work was viewed as a punishment from the earliest times.  Platonov described this very well in a poem.
The state indulged this attitude, particularly with their alcohol policies.  And many people from the FSU are still working this through this, because the attitude is ingrained.

Would she ask the same of a Russian man in Russia?  Probably not.  Watch the end of this video for a Russian man's attitude (from about 3:55) -

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[GQBlues]

Billy-

Sure. Most of the relatively younger RWs are rather more westernized in their psyche these days. Your experiences may well be the case but it doesn't negate the fact there's a cultural divide between the two regions. Despite what number gets thrown around, chances are the old school mentality will still be in the majority.

Likewise in the States, while the relatively younger generation had taken their own careers as foremost, the old school traditional mentality still exist albeit in the minority.

Which then brings to mind - the chances of anyone finding a woman who would likely be in the same wave lenght as you is from an AW. Why search anyone outside your own? All things considered, there's a higher likelihood you'll have a bigger pool to fish from that would mesh with your 'norm', no?

[BillyB]

Which then brings to mind - the chances of anyone finding a woman who would likely be in the same wave lenght as you is from an AW.

An AW and I would probably be on further wavelengths that a RW and I. As you know I'm a minority being half Asian and most my relatives around me are minorities. I also work in construction dealing with a lot of minorities. Since 1998 I've been in relationships with nothing but RW, also minorities here, that included marriage, long term and short term. In my next post in my thread "Life changes" I will mention how fast I got some dates while walking the streets of Kiev. I know how to deal with minorities and people from other cultures. At this time I feel I connect better with RW and they connect with me if they are initially satisfied with my physical appearance. Once physically attracted to me, I'm confident I can win a RW over with my good manners, communication skills and brains.

In a way I feel honored the RW I spoke of would consider me husband material for her after one date. In a way I feel honored she would consider me her lover until she finds a husband. Should I focus on AW just in case I do connect with them better for more success? I'm very happy with the FSU female attention I'm getting in my life right now so I'll stick with the program.

[Sculpto]

so I'll stick with the program.

I suspect it is going to be a long program.

BTW.. you are "honored" to have been chosen worthy to pay for sex?  Sugardaddies.com is full of hot AWs with the same sort of agendas.  Blind leading the blind 

[BillyB]

BTW.. you are "honored" to have been chosen worthy to pay for sex? 

I have never paid for sex or associated with women in the commercial sex industry. I have paid for dinners and entertainment for women and there happened to be sex afterwards.

The RW I spoke of is not in the commercial sex industry. She almost dumped me and ignored me for two weeks since she felt I did not do enough "serious" talk on our first date. She called back later to double check my feelings and since my immediate goals are not the same as hers, she wanted to continue to know me simply because she has physical needs that need to be taken care of and basically asked me to apply the savings from dinner and entertainment that doesn't need to happen to her pocket book. Costs balance out. Regardless of what you think, I will not treat her like a piece of meat that's for sale. I treat ladies well based on my good manners to them, not based on money, and that's probably why they are very comfortable around me.

Mr. Fiction, based off much of what you write at the forum, you need change a lot of your views on the way the World should work and on life if you're going to get off the program of abstinence. Not every woman in the World will like a man like me but there's enough to keep me busy. You are a very unique individual and you have a very difficult task to find one the few unique women out there to keep you busy. The various ladies you met and that you have written about in your trip reports are way different than yourself yet you seem to force yourself to accept them as they are but in the end they don't accept you and the differences between you two. Mr. fiction, my post to you may seem like an insult but it's advice and I'm serious that if you make some changes in your way of thinking, your love life will improve. You can thank me later.

[Sculpto]

No insult taken.. like much of what you say the .05 advice is worth exactly that much. 

[GQBlues]

Then BillyB maybe I got crossed with the signals I thought you were sending. If you feel more accustomed to the culture in FSU than that of the US, then I'm rather surprised you balked at this woman's flattering proposal to you. Why do you think there's more than a few mistresses in FSU? Now don't go on and say I am implying every RWs have this type of attitude and/or perspective because it isn't true. But the 'culture' of the MOB do in fact carry a healthy dose of that type of mentality and element.

You may say you're a minority in the States, and you may lay claim you live in the old school ways but what you seem to overlook is the very fact many (not all) UW/RW, especially those in the MOB circle, will simply look at you as an American who is likely living the type of life and means far above their economic threshold. In some instances - beyond their humble perception.

Is it really that hard to understand that when a person with lesser economic opportunities react to a person ( and in this case - prospective foreign husbands/boyfriends) who is not only perceived to be wealthy by virture of his country but have been impressed as such (not necessarily you) with impressions of wealth during their communication and/or his visitation; that she request, ask for, etc...items of comfort and/or luxury?

[BillyB]

If you feel more accustomed to the culture in FSU than that of the US, then I'm rather surprised you balked at this woman's flattering proposal to you.

At this time I have not accepted or declined the lady's offer. I ended the call by saying "I need some time to think about it. I'll call you back later." By saying that she will respect me more for not jumping into bed with her so quickly in exchange for money.  No marriage minded woman likes the thought that the man she sleeps with is prone to paying prostitutes for sex.

Although the RW made a bold proposal to me, it did not come out of her mouth easily when saying it. I suspect she did not want me to look at her with less value.

Is it really that hard to understand that when a person with lesser economic opportunities react to a person ( and in this case - prospective foreign husbands/boyfriends) who is not only perceived to be wealthy by virture of his country but have been impressed as such (not necessarily you) with impressions of wealth during their communication and/or his visitation; that she request, ask for, etc...items of comfort and/or luxury?

If a guy talks the talk, he should not be surprised that he's called out to walk the walk. I always tell the ladies I'm communicating with I live a normal life in America. I still have enough ladies that are interested in me to keep me happy. Because the amount of communication time I will spend with the ladies and the questions I ask, compared to other guys I have much less chance on visiting a woman who will ask for gifts or who has a bad attitude and more chance to visit a woman who has good manners and who's willing to be a partner with her husband and build a life together. I like to reduce my dependency on luck any way I can.

When it comes to local women, I dont' need to spend a lot of time corresponding and there's less risk in losing time and money traveling half way across the Globe. I can quickly get some face to face time with local women and learn about who they are in a normal way. Sure a phone call or email is cheaper to get to know the local ladies but I'd rather pay for dinner and enjoy their company even if it doesn't end up in marriage. Then again, maybe I should ask for my money back if it doesn't end in marriage.