My trip to Ukraine - Part three

[GQBlues]

Dogspot-

Do you now see what happens when you're inconsistent? You don't know whether you're coming or going.

1. Where did I assailed you complimented any of my post? I pointed out you were being INCONSISTENT. Look up the definition of the word..

2. Where did I say my approach was better than anyone else's?

3. Where did I, time and time again, pass judgment on a guy who does things slightly differently than I did especially after I've repeatedly said this experience is so highly subjective, WHICH you agreed with btw. I passed judgment on NickB for prolonging the time with a woman he knew from DAY ONE isn't right for him and NOT because he was doing something different than I did.

Heck, FWIW, YOU are the one passing judgment on me for doing things differently than you did. Do you see the logic in this?

4. This part where you said......but I wonder why you don't always agree with yourself...is loudly laughable if it wasn't too cryptic. You are definitely facing a mirror man.

5. There's a HUGE difference between ladies from out of town bringing in their suitcases to stay in the same hotel as me BUT have their own rooms - to ladies bringing their suitacases to stay with a man in a one bedroom apartment to share the same bed with him - taking turns. If you don't know the difference - then I can't help you there...

Lastly, and once again, I went to Russia to meet the women I was corresponding with in person to personalize the association so that we can all make an informed decision. I did not go to Russia to date women I have never met.

Is this really that complicated for you to comprehend? Are you that dense?

[Zmejka]

July/August.

I'll be sure to let him know the economic situation has improved markedly since then.

Please, you're very kind. I also was there July/August/September, there should have been that additional days in September when the economics made a huge jump forward. I'm talking about Russia, not Moscow, not Saint Petersburg, sorry i don't know how is it in Ukraine.

In general people seem to judge from their own experience and experience of their closest circle, so while you're sure in one thing, i (for example) am sure in the opposite, seems we'll never agree.

[dogspot]

Heck, FWIW, YOU are the one passing judgment on me for doing things differently than you did. Do you see the logic in this?

Not passing judgment...simply pointing out that your method is not that much different than NickB's. I have no problem with either of your methods. But I have a problem with you coming out and belittling a guy because he shared a flat with a woman instead of getting her her own flat. You seem to want to paint a picture of NickB as a sex tourist because his dating methods differ from yours.

Lastly, and once again, I went to Russia to meet the women I was corresponding with in person to personalize the association so that we can all make an informed decision. I did not go to Russia to date women I have never met.

Is this really that complicated for you to comprehend? Are you that dense?

That's funny. Dude, you were dating. Call it what you want but the fact is you went over their to meet them for dinner and to get to know them. This is called dating. Again, you are trying to put yourself above others by saying "to personalize the association so that we can all make an informed decision." But the reality is, you are no different.

[GQBlues]

Weak.

So in the end Dogspot, you accuse me of saying things I never did and when I confronted you to prove your accusations - you conveniently deflect and brush it aside because they're simply unfounded.

Then to make that even worst, in your desperation you are now trying to define what it was I did for me in hopes to salvage any semblance of a point you are lost trying to make. Cool.

Listen, get two greek columns and try to run for presidency. There's enough gullible folks left I'm sure.

[Mars]

I totally agree with BillyB, Daveman and other people who found that logic of Boethius and brave girl just weird.

Zmejka, thanks for your timely post.

I was starting to think that all of the women here must be weird if they didn't feel that Boethius was just really weird with her way of thinking.

[Mars]

He views the whole endeavour "distasteful" because of the economic disparities. 

Boethius, I know it is hard, but try to be logical and stick to the point here.
Don't bring in teenage prostitutes forced into it, children on drugs, foreign workers being taken advantage etc.
Just stick to this one situation.

By your own words, and those of your husband's quoted above, you do not think that WM should be going to FSU to date and marry FSU women.

So I am telling you in clear terms, there is a very easy way to stop this.
I guarantee you that if any given woman will not place her profile on a marriage or dating website, then she will not be contacted by a WM.
And if all women in a particular FSU city or country will not post themselves on a marriage or dating website, then the flow of WM to that city or country will quickly come to a standstill.

The distastefullness of it to you and all others of a like mind will be eliminated when the women involved choose to take action to eliminate it.

The FSU women completely control the situation as to whether or not they want WM to come visit with them.

Once you can convince the FSU women to take the correct position, then your distaste will be eliminated.  The WM need not have any agreement or action at all for this to happen.

Please try to stick with this simple situation itself in your reply, and not bring extraneous situations into play.

[Boethius]

Please, you're very kind. I also was there July/August/September, there should have been that additional days in September when the economics made a huge jump forward. I'm talking about Russia, not Moscow, not Saint Petersburg, sorry i don't know how is it in Ukraine.

In general people seem to judge from their own experience and experience of their closest circle, so while you're sure in one thing, i (for example) am sure in the opposite, seems we'll never agree.

I'm talking about Ukraine.  

My husband's mother lives on a pension.  However, his cousin owns several stores in central Kyiv.  She and her husband were devoted commies before the collapse, and profited handsomely thereafter.  A friend of his (who I also knew, and he was a good person, though a bit macabre) was part of the nomenklatura, and started the Foxtrot group of stores, which grew into a large conglomerate.  That friend was the host of the sushi dinner at which Yushchenko was "poisoned".  Many of his neighbours and friends did well, though a lot of the men are dead (alcohol).  He also worked with a lot of escapees, so he knows that life too.  I'd say he had a very wide circle of acquaintances (not many real friends).  So, the judgment comes not from one particular economic level.

Ukraine's per capita GDP is about 45% less than that of Russia, about a third of that of neighbouring Poland.  It is even lower than that of Belarus. It is 15-20% of most Western countries.  (I am using 2008 numbers, it will be even worse this year.)  One of every ten Ukrainians is working abroad (mostly illegally).  Parents are dumping their kids in villages to go earn money, resulting in a huge number of street children in Ukraine's largest cities.  One of every three hryvnia is circulating in Kyiv.  So, discounting all personal observations, by all standard economic measurements, the country is a basket case, particulary once you move out of Kyiv.  

This cannot be dismissed as easily as it has been here.  

Plus, Zmejka, the issue was never the coat, or the asking for it.  My points were:

A (most importantly) the OP's reaction;
B that this woman likely had no concept of what the money meant; and
C the posts equating this woman with a whore. (I will say here, I agree with GQ's posts on this issue.) 

If that coat had been $5, I think the OP would have bought it, and nobody would have posted that he would have done better with a prostitute.  As I posted, he wanted a cheap cow.  He was fine sleeping on top of her until she dared ask him for something.

[facetrock]

  I agree that life is tough in Ukraine but obviously it isnt to tough that a woman will ask for a 700 dollar coat when I am sure 700 dollars could help her and her family in a million other more useful ways. But the fact that she wanted a 700 dollar coat says alot.
  Maybe the sex just wasnt that good and she really didnt deserve it. Maybe she only deserved a 200 dollar coat.
   In any event they both agreed to shack up for a week and both knew there would be some banging going on before hand.
 They dated, they had sex, and it didnt work out. Happens all the time all over the world.
 

[Sculpto]

sex = "whats in it for me" for too many people.

[glassman]

Seven Hundred bucks for a coat.  Time and time again, we have heard darn near everybody say it. 

A good woman never asks a man for anything. 

[Boethius]

A good man has the decency to rent a lady a separate apartment, or at least a separate room, doesn't lead her to believe in the possibility of a relationship when he knows it's not in the cards, and doesn't throw her out after playing house for a week.

[JR]

A good woman never asks a man for anything. 

And here I always thought a "good woman" meets her man at the door wearing only a $700 coat and asks for sex!

[Miss FSU]

A good woman never asks a man for anything. 

Lets then state that a good man makes everything for woman not to ask him for anything

[Sculpto]

Lets then state that a good man makes everything for woman not to ask him for anything

Men.. pay attention to what Miss FSU just said.  This is a pearl.. no sarcasm here at all.. she has revealed an insight that is truly golden into the mindset of modern FSUW, especially those under 30.

[Daveman]

Plus, Zmejka, the issue was never the coat, or the asking for it.  My points were:

A (most importantly) the OP's reaction;
B that this woman likely had no concept of what the money meant; and
C the posts equating this woman with a whore. (I will say here, I agree with GQ's posts on this issue.) 

If that coat had been $5, I think the OP would have bought it, and nobody would have posted that he would have done better with a prostitute.  As I posted, he wanted a cheap cow.  He was fine sleeping on top of her until she dared ask him for something.

Of course, and if she would have asked for a $20 teddy bear, or to go to a decent restaurant, etc., it would have been perfectly normal as well. The price of the gift DOES matter in this case, living together or not, because of the early stage of the relationship process. 

And "that she dared asked him for something" is a very misleading summation of the events. She dared ask him for something that costs probably 2 months of her salary.  She didn't "dare ask him for" cheesecake, or a cute cuddly stuffed animal, or a lock of his hair...

I do, however, agree that if the OP knew nothing more would develop between them, he should have made that clear and let her go early on. 

[Miss FSU]

Of course, and if she would have asked for a $20 teddy bear, or to go to a decent restaurant, etc., it would have been perfectly normal as well. The price of the gift DOES matter in this case, living together or not, because of the early stage of the relationship process. 

And "that she dared asked him for something" is a very misleading summation of the events. She dared ask him for something that costs probably 2 months of her salary.  She didn't "dare ask him for" cheesecake, or a cute cuddly stuffed animal, or a lock of his hair...

I do, however, agree that if the OP knew nothing more would develop between them, he should have made that clear and let her go early on. 

Why you are so sticked to this 2 months salary? If her salary is 3000usd, then she has right to ask for the coat?
Actually I remember the time when the coat on the cheap marked costed 1 or 2 months salary and people DID buy them.So why should it be too much as present from a man she actually sleeps with? The situation is sick from both sides.

By the way, how about 700 usd Teddy bear?

[Boethius]

You missed the point completely, Dave.  

First, because of the way their economy is structured, a lot of Ukrainians don't see this price as significant (and really, for most Westerners, it isn't).  Second, the price has nothing to do with the issue.  If you think it does, we go back to the point of wanting the cheapest cow.  It's okay to paw her for a week and throw her a few trinkets, and well, she should just be grateful.

[SMS60]

I like how people can spend other peoples money. Its so easy. A very remarkable trait. 

[Boethius]

It has nothing to do with money, SMS.  The fact that all you guys (with the exceptions of GQ and 2012) are focused on the money rather than the ethics and behaviour is quite telling.  

  

[SMS60]

It has nothing to do with money, SMS.  The fact that all you guys (with the exceptions of GQ and 2012) are focused on the money rather than the ethics and behaviour is quite telling.  

Reading the posts, including yours, it has everything to do with money or material things.

[Boethius]

No, my posts are about attitude and exploitation.  On both sides.  However, because the Westerner is not economically disadvantaged, I expect more of him (or her, as the case may be).

[SMS60]

I expect more of him

I dont think you should expect anything. When you do this you are always let down as we see in this thread.

After reading NickB's story again. When she mentioned the coat I would have escorted her to the nearest metro and said goodbye.

[Miss FSU]

Actually I am  more then sure, that this guy would spend same or even bigger amount on restaourants, teddy bears, agencies and other stuff, what I've noticed, WM don't like buying some good and practicall stuff, it scares them away. But its quite easy to make tham spend some money on flowers and so on

[Boethius]

Who said I'm "let down"?  

Would you have been sleeping "on top" of her for a week?  Would you have met her daughter, let the woman cook for you, and basically lead her on for a week?  Do you think this is normal?  Ethical?  Moral?

[SMS60]

Who said I'm "let down"?  

Would you have been sleeping "on top" of her for a week?  Would you have met her daughter, let the woman cook for you, and basically lead her on for a week?  Do you think this is normal?  Ethical?  Moral?

You are thinking in terms of someone held at a higher standard ( the women) instead of an equal. You are expecting something in return. Like I said not good in starting a relationship.

I could easily say she owes me a coat for entertaing her or choosing her for the week? I'm not chump change.

See what happens when you think you deserve something instead of letting the heart take care of things.