Cheaper Meat????

[Misha]

Far more women get scammed, mostly for sex, than men do for anything. 

Easy solution: women should not have sex with anybody if there is any chance you will regret it in the morning. Simply put, a woman should not have sex IMHO if they are doing it solely to improve their chances of keeping some guy and that does not matter if he is local or from another continent.

[Rutherford]

JR.. your post is IMO rather tasteless. 

Guys claiming there is no such thing as a sex tourist are absolutely clueless.  Just read the romance scam boards and then try and make such an uninformed comment.  Far more women get scammed, mostly for sex, than men do for anything.  Amazing lack of insight on display.

To put it nicely , is what you have done .
It seems there are some really young  men here lacking in life's experiences

[boaterguy]

Your number 2 is total nonsense.  Did you read JRs original post and my follow on?

It is ludicrous for a man to pay big money to travel solely for the purpose of getting sex.

No sane man would do it.

Men might do number 2, but they certainly are not going to pay to travel long distances to do it.  So there is sex; but no sex tourism.

LOL! I know a dude that used to make a yearly trip to the redlight district in Amsterdam!

[brave girl]

A month or so ago I went to Ukraine where I got laid once. The total cost was about $2000.00 USD.

It is ludicrous for a man to pay big money to travel solely for the purpose of getting sex.

Big money??  
where is BIG MONEY??
please foreign men with shallow pockets do not disturb nice Russian girls with such silliness stay home!!  brave girl

[greg2654]

Easy solution: women should not have sex with anybody if there is any chance you will regret it in the morning. Simply put, a woman should not have sex IMHO if they are doing it solely to improve their chances of keeping some guy and that does not matter if he is local or from another continent.

Agreed. Don't help others to do bad to you.

No one (men or women) likes to have their emotions trifled with. Women getting played for sex and men getting played for money attacks a person's dignity to the core. These players don't realize, or care, just how much this behavior poisons the well for everyone. A little consideration can go a long way.

[remiel6]

at the risk of stating the obvious, its not just about the sex, its about the chase. Its about an idea in a persons head and they chase after the idea. My advice to women is to do what thier mothers might have told them. Not have sex. It is just as imperative for a woman to find out if the man she's been smitten with is honorable as it is for him to find out if she is a pro-dater/scammer.
Just as a woman in her profile can be too good to be true, so can a man in his. There is the potential of dishonesty on both sides.
example:
If a person sets up in thier mind they will only accept the millionare husband who will buy her expensive gifts, how is she suppose to know who the *bleep* he is? She can't check his bank account and we don't know what he "led her to believe" If this is your critera then be prepared to have men with big credit cards fly over once in a while with promises of rich ever after to take advantage of you. If you are shallow and vain then, you will find shallow and vain people.

[remiel6]

Oh and that wasn't meant as a comment to anyone in particular. I didn't wan JR thinking I was talking about him when I was only making a general comment. 

[mies]

Your number 2 is total nonsense.  Did you read JRs original post and my follow on?

It is ludicrous for a man to pay big money to travel solely for the purpose of getting sex.

No sane man would do it.

Men might do number 2, but they certainly are not going to pay to travel long distances to do it.  So there is sex; but no sex tourism.

so which exactly statement do you object?

That

1) there are Western men who pay great deal for trip to FSU to meet, promise love, and have sex with many women in same or different cities during one trip. (while women believe this man wants family with them)

2) these Western men are sane.

[mies]

My advice to women is to do what thier mothers might have told them. Not have sex. It is just as imperative for a woman to find out if the man she's been smitten with is honorable as it is for him to find out if she is a pro-dater/scammer.

the issue is not about sex. it's about lie. Women feel bad after meeting with sex tourists not because they had sex, but because they trusted man, and opened heart for him. Sex in this case is just the natural outcome of being infatuated. If women knew ex ante that man was seeking only sex, and women knowingly gave consent for sex - there would be no indignation and hate ex post.

In a way - as pointed by posters above - sex tourists are same as scammers. They promise something they aren't going to deliver in order to gain trust and obtain what they desire (sex, true emotions, whatever else).

[RussianWind]

Add to that the fact that some RW do not require a condom. 

It's not true. Believe me or not the fact is that some men arrive without condoms...  

[Gylden]

What I gather from this thread is that there are a lot of insane men in the world.

[GQBlues]

JollyRat never mentioned how he got sexed up in Ukraine and by whom? Nor did he even mentioned if he is now engaged, in a relationship, dating, etc with the particular woman he sexed up with. He did not mention that getting laid in Ukraine was the core reason, or a consequence, of going there in the first place. He could've very well met someone at a club, on the street and consensually engaged in casual sex.

How the OP's initial post automatically rejected the notion sex tourism doesn't exist based on this premise is just plain silly.

I would also assert not all men involved in this adventure fall in the same mold JollyRat is. I seriously doubt that all the men who go to FSU gets the same favorable female attention, a date, gets laid as easily as other men can and do. There's a very darn good reason why men who complains gorgeous, slim women do not exist for them to date in their world; and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the women or how many of them are..

The fact is places like FSU/Asia/SA afford a lot men, who would otherwise be at the bottom of the social totem pole at home, an opportunity to experience and live out the type of life and attention the types of men like JollyRat can with relative ease. Not all men are created equal. Deal with it. The economic disparity between countries allows these group of men an opportunity AND a reality to role play to exist. How these men go about dealing with this opportunity/reality is where it'll differ.

Many men in these adventures are like alcoholics, they'll deny and defend their respective reality as such (e.g. fat/ugly men who complains of fat/ugly women for being, well, fat/ugly), OR delude themselves into thinking that the attention they get in those places confirm the idea that somehow those women are different than their global sisters (They're always surprised how marriage agency women they write to, well, are marriage minded. LOL) - or more importantly, their perceived economic superiority, whether real or not; does not play into any of part of this opportunity.

They simply have a difficult time conducting themselves accordingly once they arrive. The obvious economic disparity automatically empowers them. They get to become the type of man they never could be otherwise - even for a short time...

[mies]

Knowing that the local hooker is with him only because he paid her money is a turnoff.  He prefers the fantasy that the beautiful "8" or "9" woman is with him because he is a wonderful man, not because he paid her a few hundred dollars for a hour or so of sex. 

Especially when considering that those couple hundred $$ land not in the girl's pocket but in the revenue of an air-carrier company.
It's about same as claiming every man can buy regular/"economy class" trip to Vegas and have a "business-class" hooker meet him in the airport and stay with him whole week attending to every his wish, and demand nothing, only occasional lunches and wine every now and then.

Add to that the fact that some RW do not require a condom. 

not sure what you meant by your line about a condom. and about "require".

[Mars]

so which exactly statement do you object?

That

1) there are Western men who pay great deal for trip to FSU to meet, promise love, and have sex with many women in same or different cities during one trip. (while women believe this man wants family with them)

2) these Western men are sane.

Hi Mies, one of most intelligent lady posters here.  :-))

I would like to answer your question, but I don't see something in your words which corresponds to both (1) exact words I have typed and (2) something that I object to.

However, from your words, I suspect you are just showing your dislike for the WMVM approach; so probably nothing new can result from a back and forth.

[Mars]

Quote from: Gator on Today at 08:36:39 AM
Add to that the fact that some RW do not require a condom.

It's not true.

Sorry RW, but what Gator says is absolutely true.

And even further, some FSUW do not only 'not require a condom,' but they become very angry when the man insists on using one.

And my experience is not with younger gals who may be trying to trap a man with a pregnancy.  My experience is with gals past age 40 who are highly educated and highly intelligent (except for this situation).

These ladies view the man's use of condom as some indication the man thinks the gal may not be clean enough.  They seemingly don't understand the point that the man may be the one with the STD (which I don't have and intend to keep it that way).

And further, when a man or woman has unprotected sex with one partner, they are in effect having sex with all the other unprotected partners that have occurred in the past.  For some unknown reason, this reality seems not to be understood by FSUW.

I even  had a long discussion about this with a FSUW who was a member Mensa.
For a long time she denied the truth about "in effect having sex with all the other unprotected partners that have occurred in the past."  Only after the long discussion and examples, she finally agreed I was correct.

[Misha]

Women feel bad after meeting with sex tourists not because they had sex, but because they trusted man, and opened heart for him. Sex in this case is just the natural outcome of being infatuated. If women knew ex ante that man was seeking only sex, and women knowingly gave consent for sex - there would be no indignation and hate ex post.

Don't local Russian men lie, cajole, bend the truth and otherwise do their best to have women have sex with them You would think that any woman past her teens would already understand a thing or two about the general male psyche 

[Mars]

There are posters on this forum who continually insist on misrepresenting what other posters have said.

For purposes of clarification of this matter:

I have not said that desireable women who meet my criteria do not exist in the USA.

Here is the quote of my exact previous words from the "Where are best women thread":

"However, I strenuously disagree with your ' it is easy to find thin, attractive, educated, cultured women to date right here.'  It is simply not true.

Yes, there exist 'thin, attractive, educated, cultured women right here.

But, 'to date'  not true at all.

Reason:

1) Most of these such women are quite happily married and their men are not about to let them go.

2) For those who are not married; since men overwhelmingly desire thin women, each of these very few (proportionately) women have their pick from hundreds of men.

Further, there is virtually no way that these women could not take on a very haughty attitude.  It defies everything we know about human nature to even think that they would not.

So under no stretch of the imagination are such women 'easy to date.'
And most likely, the man would not enjoy such a date anyway.

Sure, sure I know that  many men here will brag that they regularly can or do date such women.  And I also have a bridge for sale."


As a recap for those who can't keep words straight (on purpose):

1. Highly desireable (for the criteria noted above) women do exist in USA.
2. The vast majority of such women are happily married.
3. The remainder single women (meeting the criteria above) know they are in extremely short supply and thus (quite naturally) are extremely haughty (and other such adjectives as appropriate).
4. Because of the haughty attitude, I cannot enjoy dates with such women.

[Gylden]

Misha,
Of course there are some Russian men who lie and such. I think that the FSUW just are expecting that WM who has the means to travel a long distance to meet them would have better character than those RM who lie.

[Mars]

Don't local Russian men lie, cajole, bend the truth and otherwise do their best to have women have sex with them You would think that any woman past her teens would already understand a thing or two about the general male psyche  

Quite a good point Misha.  One which the FSUW like to ignore in these discussions.

Interestingly, I had a long discussion about this and related topics with a quite brilliant FSUW who was happily married.  Not one that I was trying to romance; she was a colleague in a charity project I was working on.

She quite readily admitted that FSU women have a very pronounced double standard with regard to local men vs foreign men.

For local men, the FSUW will date and have sex with no expectation of a long term relationship and certainly no expectation of marriage.

But when a foreign man is involved, the FSUW suddenly become righteous virgins who think that the first kiss should lead directly to a marriage.  If this is not the total plan of the man . . . then he is insincere and a sex tourist.

Then, back to screwing Igor, Vladimir and Sergei just for fun.

Note; these are not my words.  They are the words of a totally honest, mature FSU woman who has many female relatives and friends involved in the International dating situation.

[Mars]

What I gather from this thread is that there are a lot of insane men in the world.

And what have you 'gathered' with respect to women?

[mies]

Hi Mies, one of most intelligent lady posters here.  :-))

I would like to answer your question, but I don't see something in your words which corresponds to both (1) exact words I have typed and (2) something that I object to.

However, from your words, I suspect you are just showing your dislike for the WMVM approach; so probably nothing new can result from a back and forth.

Thank you, Mars. You are too kind

my questions were meant to understand better what exactly you were saying.

i have no objections against WMVM - when man is open about it, and when woman he sleeps with knows that after her this man is going to have sex with 3-5 more gals. And then will possibly pick the best one. Or will continue his search.
In my understanding - the limits defining "sex-tourism" are quite shady and vague. Most clearly - pedophiles traveling to third-world countries qualify for "sex-tourists". People who go on a trip planning to have sex with many different women, and keeping intentions hidden from participating women - I believe this is also sex-tourism, and not just WMVM. Visit many is ok, have sex with many in 1 week while claiming the marriage plans - ??? call me old-fashioned.

Would you go to see a woman if you knew that on a week while you are going to be there she is going to meet 4 other WMs, and have sex with all of them - in order to check physical compatibility? Even using condoms it's still does not sound right to me. Would you file fiance visa application for such woman? Would you marry her?
Now, how things are different if she keeps it in secret. You file documents for her, and then accidentally - find out that while she was telling "I love you darling, i want to marry and have children" (it's just general phrase, of course not all men want to have more children) in a phonecall with you - she was on her way to other man's hotel room? And let's say - your neighbor on a plane shows explicit photos of your fiance, in his hotel room, that he took about the time you were talking about love and marriage with her?

So it's not as much about sex as i said - it's more about lies and broken trust.

[Gylden]

I think that AM get bashed pretty good on these forums by some and I would just like to say that I think it is a mistake to do so and it is a sign of week character, just as bad mouthing a former spouse. It lacks class to say the least. I do believe that AW are looking for much the same as FSUW and it is easier for them to identify who these “undesirable” men are, because they speak the same language and most often use more time in the dating process. (Making it easier by nature)
The FSUW however doesn’t have the language or time advantage and so character flaws are often not discovered until after they are married and have moved to the US or wherever. These are often labeled as GCG by their disappointed ex-husbands.
Not all men are this way.
By the way, I have three daughters in the US and it is my opinion that they are pretty OK! (But of course I am their father)

[mies]

Don't local Russian men lie, cajole, bend the truth and otherwise do their best to have women have sex with them You would think that any woman past her teens would already understand a thing or two about the general male psyche 

in this case - expensive trip plays great role. RW are more eager to believe that if WM paid so much for the trip - he certainly must be serious about his willingness to get married. While if in reality he didn't have that plan - we came back to the initial statement that some men indeed are eager to pay 2'000$+ for the opportunity to have sex in FSU, Thailand, or anywhere else but not at home.

Speaking about RMs, i've heard that sometimes they promise marriage while only want sex. But i never met such men, or girls who dated such RMs. However, I did meet women who dated WMs, who promised marriage while scheduling next date with another/next sexually attractive woman.

[Mars]

Gylden, fix up your message to read AW rather than AM.  You can modify within a few minutes of your post, but not later.

[Mars]

Thank you, Mars. You are too kind

my questions were meant to understand better what exactly you were saying.

i have no objections against WMVM - when man is open about it, and when woman he sleeps with knows that after her this man is going to have sex with 3-5 more gals. And then will possibly pick the best one. Or will continue his search.
In my understanding - the limits defining "sex-tourism" are quite shady and vague. Most clearly - pedophiles traveling to third-world countries qualify for "sex-tourists". People who go on a trip planning to have sex with many different women, and keeping intentions hidden from participating women - I believe this is also sex-tourism, and not just WMVM. Visit many is ok, have sex with many in 1 week while claiming the marriage plans - ??? call me old-fashioned.

Would you go to see a woman if you knew that on a week while you are going to be there she is going to meet 4 other WMs, and have sex with all of them - in order to check physical compatibility? Even using condoms it's still does not sound right to me. Would you file fiance visa application for such woman? Would you marry her?
Now, how things are different if she keeps it in secret. You file documents for her, and then accidentally - find out that while she was telling "I love you darling, i want to marry and have children" (it's just general phrase, of course not all men want to have more children) in a phonecall with you - she was on her way to other man's hotel room? And let's say - your neighbor on a plane shows explicit photos of your fiance, in his hotel room, that he took about the time you were talking about love and marriage with her?

So it's not as much about sex as i said - it's more about lies and broken trust.

Mies, I can't give you good answer because we have fundamental differences of opinion as to what is possible on a WMVM trip.

Despite what others have claimed, I hold firmly that it is impossible to carry out a WMVM trip where you 'a priori' inform the ladies of your intention to date and possibly have sex with several women.

So those who feel such info should be given 'a priori' are just using a disguised way of voicing their disapproval of the WMVM  method.

Sorry!!  :-))

Now about  the rest of your post as to how I would feel if the woman I was interested in did such and such.  For such a discussion to be rational vs emotional, we must distinguish were the relatonship is on a time line.  i.e. first meetings vs several trips later, etc.

Your example is best suited to outrage related to a long term commited relationship.  This is a much different situation than the initial WMVM visit.

Until an engagement is agreed upon;  I feel that all is fair for both man and woman with respect to other partners.  I would neither ask about other partners, nor want to be told.