Life Changes...Part Deux

[Admin]

And don't even believe for one minute that "A" was the first and only 16/17 yo that was contacted on the internet.
 
GOB

Facts NOT in evidence. It is exactly this sort of leap that strikes a nerve - with me anyway. Cite your facts to support your claim, or do not make the allegation.

- Dan

[SMS60]

Although some may label this "morally repugnant" I tend to see it a little more pragmatically. You understand the concept of Child Grooming I guess? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_grooming
You understand that adolescents can be manipulated and exploited by authority figures? And you probably understand why there are certain checks and balances in place between children/adolescents and teachers, doctors and the like?

I think you are being a little melodramatic; this is not about oppression. It is about discouraging manipulative behaviour. It is about discouraging men from setting out to pursue relationships that will more than likely damage one or both parties; and I'm not talking of preventing them, this isn't about forcing people to do anything. This is about frankly discussing the issues, not least of which are the issues of exploitation.

So, in a free society with the internet what is the solution to help you sleep better at night?

[BC]

Facts NOT in evidence. It is exactly this sort of leap that strikes a nerve - with me anyway. Cite your facts to support your claim, or do not make the allegation.

- Dan

As it refers to BillyB or in general terms?

[Ade]

Fair enough. Use of the phrase "morally repugnant" was my word choice and not yours - and it is appropriate for you to correct me. FWIW, my use of that phrase emanated from my interpretation of the strength of some of the responses, yours included.

Re: Child Grooming. Actually, your reference to it is the first I have seen using those terms - though it makes definitional sense. Let me ask directly - are you alleging that BillyB was engaging in the act of "child grooming"?

I'm not alleging anything, although it's of course a possibility. I'm also saying that adults contacting children to "chat" on the internet may have consequences. Perhaps even unintended consequences; it wouldn't be the first time a girl became infatuated with a father figure. Children and adolescents need to be protected from themselves and the rash decisions they make; as adults, it's up to us to do that. However, some men will deliberately (and sometimes unwittingly) exploit these tendencies in adolescents.

Your quote: discouraging men from setting out to pursue relationships that will more than likely damage one or both parties.

Implicit within that quotation is the judgment that we know, or can know, which characteristics of relationships to identify so that we might be effective at discouraging them. Be specific as to those characteristics. I would like to see what the limitations would look like.

- Dan

No, we cannot know absolutely. We can however, extrapolate from what we see around us, the cultural norms in their countries and the likely outcome. Yes, it's possible that this is a match made in heaven but is it likely? I think not. Further, for Billy to even hint that this situation is something that men should actively seek out is beyond unwise, at least if they want a long term marriage with an equal partner.

You may say that my rationale is based on lots of ifs, maybes and suppositions. Yes, and perhaps you are right but there are far more ifs and maybes in the counter argument.

[Hammer2722]

The ignore feature remains available to you although it is not in the form of a "button" any longer. Just go to your "Profile" - look in the left frame for "Buddies/Ignore List" - find the link for "Edit Ignore List" and add whomever you wish to ignore.

While in your Profile be sure to look also at the Personal Messaging options which, if properly selected, will allow you to ignore the PMs sent by anyone in your Ignore list.

For that matter, while in your Profile just look around at the many configurable options available to you. You might stumble onto something you wish to make use of.

- Dan

Thanks for that info Dan!

[Admin]

As it refers to BillyB or in general terms?

As I understood GOB's post, he is claiming that BillyB made contact with other girls in the FSU who are 16 years old. Unless that is supported with evidence, it is a false allegation designed solely to smear Billy.

Imagine for a moment how GOB (and most of us) would react if someone were to begin making false and ignorant claims of wrongdoing aimed purely at maligning character.

This action to impugn someone's character is, IMO, a malicious and repugnant act. And in this instance, I know clearly why it hits a nerve with me having had more than a few people do exactly that sort of thing directed at me in the past. In fact, I have little doubt my ex-wife is engaging in just such behavior as we speak. It seems her favorite pastime.

- Dan

[BC]

This action to impugn someone's character is, IMO, a malicious and repugnant act. And in this instance, I know clearly why it hits a nerve with me having had more than a few people do exactly that sort of thing directed at me in the past. In fact, I have little doubt my ex-wife is engaging in just such behavior as we speak. It seems her favorite pastime.

- Dan

Can only suggest asking a direct question for a direct answer.. On both counts.

Eliminates chances of baiting.

[Ade]

So, in a free society with the internet what is the solution to help you sleep better at night?

I sleep fine thank you. There are sufficient laws in place to protect adolescents in most countries.

There are several problems here. One main problem is the mother of this child; not only did she not step in to discourage this relationship but she (apparently) actively encourages it. In my experience this is not the behaviour of a rational mother; this opinion is reinforced by the persistent talk of her sexual advice given to Billy.

The other problem as I see it is that Billy, being the "man" he is, is obviously not constrained by societal norms that most of us are. He doesn't see that he may be exploiting this girl or perhaps he just doesn't care. And yes, it is entirely possible to exploit a willing participant.

I'm still unsure if this is an elaborate set up or just an infatuated girl egged on by her eccentric mother. Obviously the girl is not exactly behaving normally either no matter what the real motivations are.

But whatever, I know what I would do if a Billy started chatting to a 17 year old of mine. I would talk to her. I would get her mother to talk to her. I would talk to the police and then I would talk to him. Unlike some, I think it unlikely that I would passively accept the situation and I  would use any means necessary to protect my daughter from herself.

Like Dan, I've had a pretty special life too with lots of experiences. I know how stupid a teenager can be from many personal experiences - experiences that are regretted many years later. I also know predators - I'm not saying Billy is one - and I certainly wouldn't stand by and allow a daughter of mine to unwittingly fall under the influence of one.

[Admin]

I'm not alleging anything, although it's of course a possibility. I'm also saying that adults contacting children to "chat" on the internet may have consequences. Perhaps even unintended consequences; it wouldn't be the first time a girl became infatuated with a father figure. Children and adolescents need to be protected from themselves and the rash decisions they make; as adults, it's up to us to do that. However, some men will deliberately (and sometimes unwittingly) exploit these tendencies in adolescents.

No, we cannot know absolutely. We can however, extrapolate from what we see around us, the cultural norms in their countries and the likely outcome. Yes, it's possible that this is a match made in heaven but is it likely? I think not. Further, for Billy to even hint that this situation is something that men should actively seek out is beyond unwise, at least if they want a long term marriage with an equal partner.

You may say that my rationale is based on lots of ifs, maybes and suppositions. Yes, and perhaps you are right but there are far more ifs and maybes in the counter argument.

To some extent - maybe to a large extent - it depends on your perspective at onset. SMS60 raised an excellent question. With focus on the phrase free society, what limits do we place on individual behaviors? While most sensible people would agree with you that we need to protect "children and adolescents" the definitional lines are not as clearly demarked as one would like, and the courts are rife with real life examples. What is the age of a "child" and when, exactly, do they graduate to being an "adolescent." Are they an "adolescent" until they become an "adult" at the age of 18? I can tell you that in the US most jurisdictions have some age guidelines pertaining to these sorts of things, but in all cases, a crime must have been committed before any issue is raised. At age 18 a person is fully entitled to the judgments and consequences of an adult and behaviors that would have been crimes at age 17 are no longer crimes as of their 18th birthday.

In this topic the effort has been made to draw a line of demarcation at the age of consent. That has proven to be woefully inadequate as some country's laws allow sex with very young persons - far younger than the girl Billy met. The US has some history with extra-terratorial enforcement of its laws pertaining to predatory sexual behavior by Americans overseas - but as I recall an 18 year old female does not meet the US statutes. When the effort to condemn Billy's behaviors fail on legal grounds, then it seems the effort turns to moral judgment. If not that, then what is the basis for condemnation?

And BTW - I remain curious as to the specifics of the limitations you would see imposed so as to discourage these types of relationships.

- Dan

[Ade]

To some extent - maybe to a large extent - it depends on your perspective at onset. SMS60 raised an excellent question. With focus on the phrase free society, what limits do we place on individual behaviors? While most sensible people would agree with you that we need to protect "children and adolescents" the definitional lines are not as clearly demarked as one would like, and the courts are rife with real life examples. What is the age of a "child" and when, exactly, do they graduate to being an "adolescent." Are they an "adolescent" until they become an "adult" at the age of 18? I can tell you that in the US most jurisdictions have some age guidelines pertaining to these sorts of things, but in all cases, a crime must have been committed before any issue is raised. At age 18 a person is fully entitled to the judgments and consequences of an adult and behaviors that would have been crimes at age 17 are no longer crimes as of their 18th birthday.

In this topic the effort has been made to draw a line of demarcation at the age of consent. That has proven to be woefully inadequate as some country's laws allow sex with very young persons - far younger than the girl Billy met. The US has some history with extra-terratorial enforcement of its laws pertaining to predatory sexual behavior by Americans overseas - but as I recall an 18 year old female does not meet the US statutes. When the effort to condemn Billy's behaviors fail on legal grounds, then it seems the effort turns to moral judgment. If not that, then what is the basis for condemnation?

And BTW - I remain curious as to the specifics of the limitations you would see imposed so as to discourage these types of relationships.

- Dan

Just a quick reply before my wife an I retire for the night.

You are again forgetting that contact was made when she was at most 17.

Take a look at Misha's post here;

In Canada the age of consent depends on the nature of the relationship:

Source: http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/dept-min/clp/faq.html

Seems like a good limitations to me; I'm not sure but I think some/most European countries have something similar - too late to look it up now but I will check tomorrow.

[BC]

The US has some history with extra-terratorial enforcement of its laws pertaining to predatory sexual behavior by Americans overseas - but as I recall an 18 year old female does not meet the US statutes.

IIRC the 'limit' is 16.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROTECT_Act_of_2003

For the purposes of this law, illicit sexual conduct includes commercial sex with anyone under 18,[6] and non-commercial sex with persons under 16 when there is at least a four-year age difference or the person is under 12 years of age.[2][7][8][9]

FWIW

[Admin]

Just a quick reply before my wife an I retire for the night.

You are again forgetting that contact was made when she was at most 17.

Take a look at Misha's post here;
Seems like a good limitations to me; I'm not sure but I think some/most European countries have something similar - too late to look it up now but I will check tomorrow.

No, I am really not forgetting her age at 17 when they first began communicating. I *am* reminded of the fact that no crime was committed - and that considers the Canadian reference you support. I am also reminded of the fact that you are not claiming "child grooming" was in play.

What does that leave?

- Dan

[GQBlues]

pitbull has been sometimes blunt and to the point,  and has the perspective of a mother (which like you said, we'll never quite actually have).


She posted something quite eloquent and telling a little over a year ago, which would also give a little insight into a) who she really is, and b) another reason she would see this relationship as potentially detrimental for "A"

I actually have a pretty good 'read' about pitbull a tad based solely on her postings here. It goes without saying, I always thought she's a class act and maybe that's why her post took me by surprise.
 
But in reading one of BC's posted link upthread, it helped give light (presumption on my part) as to the intent behind pitbull's post (re: wasted precious years). I may well be wrong as she may have meant it to be something else but if I'm right, then I can't say I disagree with her in this context.
 
referenced link

It's interesting to note how folks feel about the subject of a woman's role in a marriage. And as always...to each his (her) own... 

[BC]

But in reading one of BC's posted link upthread, it helped give light (presumption on my part) as to the intent behind pitbull's post (re: wasted precious years). I may well be wrong as she may have meant it to be something else but if I'm right, then I can't say I disagree with her in this context.
 
referenced link

Don't forget mies here: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=11638.msg276079#msg276079

[GQBlues]

I have to be honest BC, I did see the post (mies') and tried to read it. Unfortunately, and of no fault of mies', that one huge paragraph sort of gave me a headache so skimmed through it and didn't really register, thus I may have unfortunately lost out on another insightful contribution from her.
 
- is anyone else having *some* difficulties with the font/paragraph structure when they write/post their replies? -

[GoodOlBoy]

Billy, you live in the Seattle area right? So do I. I hope that someday when your A and my Lena arrives we can all get together for dinner or something.

I hope you are planning to meet up at Burger King or McDonald's.
 
"A" just turned 19, so unless you want to spend a night in jail for supplying alcohol to an underage, I would stay away from restaurants and bars.
 
GOB

[Ranetka]

I just think it's sad for a young beautiful girl to enter such unequal marriage. She has so many choices at her age. A young bright Ukrainian boy of similar age and from a good family is so much better prospect for her in all respects.
 
Ths is just my humble opinion, of course I do not personally know Billy or A.
Promised my self not to post in this thread anymore but this is just so addictive.

[GQBlues]

....Promised my self not to post in this thread anymore but this is just so addictive.  

  
 
I give to you my post # 1,217, LOL!

[Misha]

I just think it's sad for a young beautiful girl to enter such unequal marriage. She has so many choices at her age. A young bright Ukrainian boy of similar age and from a good family is so much better prospect for her in all respects.

Perhaps, but it won't guarantee her an American green card 

[BC]

The more I peruse this subject, the more I am reminded of damsels in distress and knights in shining armor.

Maybe the conflict between equality and necessity and amour.

BillyB  comes near every goal MOB agencies tout - the same, many if not most, highly doubt..

Not once, but twice, maybe even thrice.

If so a huge Hurrah!

But lets not forget.. we talk about the easiest part of a journey,

one that the likes of jb and others can only give warning..

All a roll of the dice, for sure..

of which only the end will bring closure.


crappola... I should be a poet...

[Admin]

I just think it's sad for a young beautiful girl to enter such unequal marriage. She has so many choices at her age. A young bright Ukrainian boy of similar age and from a good family is so much better prospect for her in all respects.
 
Ths is just my humble opinion, of course I do not personally know Billy or A.
Promised my self not to post in this thread anymore but this is just so addictive.

"Unequal" because of the 22 year age difference - or unequal because of her lack of maturity - or unequal because of the economic differences - or ?

If the issue is equality - then I wonder about equal application of whatever considerations make up 'equality' in a domestic union and how those are different in the international context.

- Dan

[Ranetka]

"Unequal" because of the 22 year age difference - or unequal because of her lack of maturity - or unequal because of the economic differences - or ?


- Dan

What on earth IS equal in this marriage?
 
I think to me the biggest unequality is in their life/love experience and possible life choices. Billy has his life "sorted", he has a certain job, certain social status etc. She at this age is all future, she can be anything, anywhere and can have anything she wants. She is giving up her most amazing years to live a middle age life and the only benefit everyone can agree on is an American passport. I do not think it's worth it.
 
I knw Billy says that she recognise him as an amazing man. She would meet plenty of amazing men, at her age there are plenty aunmarried, no ties, with bright future.
 
 

[GQBlues]

What on earth IS equal in this marriage?
 
I think to me the biggest unequality is in their life/love experience and possible life choices. Billy has his life "sorted", he has a certain job, certain social status etc. She at this age is all future, she can be anything, anywhere and can have anything she wants. She is giving up her most amazing years to live a middle age life and the only benefit everyone can agree on is an American passport. I do not think it's worth it.
 
I knw Billy says that she recognise him as an amazing man. She would meet plenty of amazing men, at her age there are plenty aunmarried, no ties, with bright future.

"...but ObiWan, the temptation of the darkside is much too strong! I find it so hard to resist! Luke...you must resist! The future of the empire rest upon your strenght to defy the darkside...."
 
Ok, I'll take a break and step right into the darkside for a minute...
 
I'm wondering maybe the difficulty in this saga is the fact BillyB is the apparent highest bidder? Daveman sort of touch on this point, albeit the other way around. Would the skepticism change a bit if someone like say...Johnny Depp, maybe Robert Downey were waiting for 'A' instead of BillyB? Justin Beiber's already hooked...

[Ranetka]

  
 
I give to you my post # 1,217, LOL!

Please beggin you explain what do you mean?

[BC]

I'm wondering maybe the difficulty in this saga is the fact BillyB is the apparent highest bidder?

According to Billy, he is on ebay.