ML and Ukrainian Women.

[Faux Pas]

My Gal is scheduled to get on plane early Saturday morning to fly back to me.
Will she get on this plane?
Who knows!

Maybe a loaf of white bread might win her over? 

[ML]

She likes dark bread best.
Maybe I will send her a picture of a slice of dark bread . . .
and another of me in my boxers.
See which one she chooses.

[Anotherkiwi]

My Gal is scheduled to get on plane early Saturday morning to fly back to me.
Will she get on this plane?
Who knows!

Why are you having doubts?  From what little you have told us, things seem to have been going very well - have you been having "discussions" while she has been away?

[ML]

We talk almost every night (her time) on Skype.
Everything is going great.
We profess that we miss each other very much.
But still . . . everyone has to take that action to get on the plane.
Very few certainties in the world.
And I am an optimist.   

[Anotherkiwi]

We talk almost every night (her time) on Skype.
Everything is going great.
We profess that we miss each other very much.
But still . . . everyone has to take that action to get on the plane.
Very few certainties in the world.
And I am an optimist.   

No, you are falling into the same trap as so many others - seeing red (or at least orange) flags where none should exist.  From what you have told us, she has set up a wonderful life in the USA, even if you weren't in the picture.  That she has you as well should be a blessing (despite some of your weird opinions  ), and she doesn't seem to have any reason to stay away longer than planned.
 
Or have her family been brainwashing her into thinking that you really are using her for truly nefarious ends? 

[ML]

Her family likes me more than ever.
In fact, they have been buying presents for me for her to bring.
I have never mentioned any red flags.
It ain't over til the fat lady sings.   

[Faux Pas]

Her family likes me more than ever.
In fact, they have been buying presents for me for her to bring.
I have never mentioned any red flags.
It ain't over til the fat lady sings.   

I think what you are feeling is a purely natural occurrence, you miss the ole gal.  Whether you're admitting it to yourself or not doesn't matter or why you're missing doesn't matter much either. It is what it is

[ML]

Well she did get on the plane and return to me.  Surprise, surprise!!

Actually,  I  was just trying to jerk you guys around a little and get some action going.  But it didn't work much.

But heck, it worked for Rivcardo.  What, 100 pages or so of him jerking you guys around . . . and I only get 3-4 responses.   

[Anotherkiwi]

...Actually,  I  was just trying to jerk you guys around a little and get some action going.  But it didn't work much.

But heck, it worked for Rivcardo.  What, 100 pages or so of him jerking you guys around . . . and I only get 3-4 responses.   

You need to work on your "get up people's noses by having a dodgy job" skills, instead of just being a multi-millionaire property developer - that's SO 1980s! 

[Faux Pas]

Well she did get on the plane and return to me.  Surprise, surprise!!

Actually,  I  was just trying to jerk you guys around a little and get some action going.  But it didn't work much.

But heck, it worked for Rivcardo.  What, 100 pages or so of him jerking you guys around . . . and I only get 3-4 responses.   

Maybe you should get into pimp-n-porn as a side business and less of a consumer to drive your thread page count up?

[ML]

We spent a few days in the big city where she landed in USA.

Now we are back on the ranch and she has started second summer session at the university.  She greatly enjoyed the Fourth of July activities here . . . two music concerts, parades, fireworks.

Trip back to the home country went fine for her.
Most of her female friends were very jealous of her for her jump to USA.
They also said she was very 'brave' for having done so.

As a couple of others have mentioned here . . . changing terminals at SVO in Moscow is now a lot easier than changing planes at airports in USA.  Has nothing to do with particular language; the directions and instructions are just a lot more clear in SVO . . . at least now.

Also, new terminals are very nice in Kyiv and now the terminals are a lot less crowded than before because people are spread out over more terminals.

Last year she flew from Paris and said that, upon landing in USA, the interior of the plane was just disgustingly trashy looking.

But the flight to USA from Moscow landed looking very spiffy inside.

Spiffy is a new word she learned in Intensive English Classes that she seems to like.

Also, today, she told me another driver's actions 'freaked her out.'  I got quite a chuckle from that expression.

[ML]

As is our usual activity, we walked for an hour today (Saturday) along our local walking trails, and then went to McDonald's for breakfast . . . to make sure we do not lose any weight.   

We use coupons at McDonalds, Hardees, Burger King, IHOP, etc., because we can't afford regular prices.

Anyway . . . we were having our usual great conversations; and I mentioned how  it seems that very few guys go to western Ukraine in search of a woman.

The main reason was that relatively fewer women from western Ukraine post their profiles on the dating sites (relative to other parts of Ukraine).

And, I mentioned that on these discussion sites it is usually stated that the reason for these fewer profiles is that economic conditions aren't as bad in western Ukraine, etc.

But my Gal said the reason was just the opposite.  The economic conditions were actually worse in western Ukraine, but . . . a very  high number of women from western Ukraine had already left the country for jobs in Italy and other such western countries.  They were (geographically) much closer to these western countries and it didn't seem so traumatic for them to be moving there.  So there were fewer women from western Ukraine posted on the dating sites . . . because many were no longer living in western Ukraine.

She mentioned one other contributing factor.  People in western Ukraine are generally much more into religion than those in other areas of Ukraine; which leads to some reluctance of the women to 'post themselves' on dating websites.

My Gal is really not an expert on this, has never even visited a dating website, and doesn't have any close gal-friends who have . . . so she might not have the  correct answer.

But, anyway, we had an interesting conversation about this for a half hour or so.

= = = = =

One other thing which brought a big smile to my face.

When talking about how many women from western Ukraine had moved to other countries; she said that some had gone to . . . 'the Russia.'   

[Jumper]

Western Ukraine, predominantly Ukrainian language speaking , is a bit different culturally and economically.A lot of the region is more economically depressed for sure.
The region is also more nationalistic, and wary of foreigners as a general rule.
I have lived in an area of Czech that was  similar.My wife's extended relatives are from western ukraine, and it is somewhat of a  different mindset culturally.

I'm sure  Ukrainians posting here can fill in with much more detail,,but it just  isn't surprising that despite economics being dire, there aren't as many listings on marriage agency sites from that region.

[ML]

 I recently asked my Gal why the FSU folk think that most Americans are stupid.  She said that actually in Soviet times, the common folk did not think that Americans were stupid.  They sort of looked up to us, despite the communist rhetoric.  It was only after the fall of SU when larger numbers started traveling to USA and even living in USA and raising their children here that the word started filtering back to FSU about the stupidity of Americans.  This was mainly due to the fact that their children were far ahead of the American kids in their math, etc.

Further she said that during Soviet times, rather than thinking we were stupid . . . they actually felt sorry for us.  This was because they were drilled constantly  in school about how lucky they were to be living in the greatest country in the world, and that in America most were poor and only the few rich had a good life.

[IAmZon]

You know ...  I have been thinking:

In the past, I had thought that it was best to go to one area and develop real relationships with people, and that good introductions with good girls would happen naturally - and that is true.  BUT, in places like Cali, Colombia and Poltava, Ukraine ... where then MOB industry has been very active, there is a certain "frame of reference" that is suspicious (both for the women AND the man).   It is obvious that an AM gets a high "trade up" in these locations, especially with women who are a little off the radar screen.

But, at the end of the day, in many cases, you end up meeting women that are not part of the modern world - village girls in Ukraine / Barrio girls in Colombia.

On my way back from Ukraine last month, I met a dance instructor from Turkey.  She was traveling to the USA, where she had been and worked many times before.  She was 32 years old (dance instructors are never overweight).  Because she was traveled and plugged into the modern world, she caught my humor and intelligence more than the women in met in Poltava or Kharkov.  We were very close by the time the planes' wheels hit the ground - a good connection.  It felt very normal.  Conversely, the women I met through agencies, while perhaps well-intended, seemed tentative by comparison. (Thus, the constant statement the first trip sets up the second trip.)

So, in light of my recent experiences, I have used the computer like never before - primarily using Russian based online communities to search for women that have good English and are already accomplished (not desperate in any degree, or compromising).  Using Skype with these types of women is very revealing. With just a little research, there is no need to wonder or "de-code".   So, my point is (or more accurately) my perspective now is that a wide net of possibilities, a very uncompromising attitude, good English only, a little research to verify, and a lot of SKYPE to verify a connection, seems to reduce the risks of a WOVO greatly.  Of course, all of this is a journey to me, and I am no expert (I doubt anyone can ever be - luck plays a large role here)

This does require a different mindset IMO, however.  I do not think it is wise to be searching and holding one's breath for Ms. Right with this method.  THE PACE IS MUCH SLOWER.   Which reminds me the strangest aspect of the MOB narrative - the premature talking of marriage!  Was it just me, or did this seem mightily strange?

Today, I have a group of online acquaintances.  It is interesting to notice how compatibility and trust can be created, or not, in this way.  Few "scammers" and wastes of time live through such a normal filter.   In fact, you find yourself drawn to others based upon personality and interest.  Upon reflection, many of the success stories noted on RWD occurred in more or less this manner.  Food for thought.

[Gator]

In fact, you find yourself drawn to others based upon personality and interest. 

Am I missing something?  This is a statement of the obvious.  Are these not part of the qualities that create bonds?
 
 

       Which reminds me the strangest aspect of the MOB narrative - the premature talking of marriage!  Was it just me, or did this seem mightily strange?
           

Keep in mind that many men do not have the time nor money for repeated trips.   This approach is recommended for those planning on selecting a fiancee after only one or two meetings.  It was referred to as "converse in reverse."   A couple talks about life options such as number of children, stay home or work, MIL moves to America, etc. rather than simply have a good time together and see what develops.   It happened a lot.
 
 

[IAmZon]

Gator - "Keep in mind that many men do not have the time nor money for repeated trips."

LOL! A man in such a situation, should never try in the first place.   This is much more complicated than it appears on the surface.  Don't think otherwise! Don't be a mule!

I am just now beginning to take the whole thing seriously.  My "hunch" is that this is near hopeless in Ukraine - difficult in Russian and  White Russia. If it were not for a good Plan B, I would feel somewhat defeated:)

[Jumper]

Gator - "Keep in mind that many men do not have the time nor money for repeated trips."

LOL! A man in such a situation, should never try in the first place.   This is much more complicated than it appears on the surface.  Don't think otherwise! Don't be a mule!

I am just now beginning to take the whole thing seriously.  My "hunch" is that this is near hopeless in Ukraine - difficult in Russian and  White Russia. If it were not for a good Plan B, I would feel somewhat defeated:)

Whoa riv ,
Hopeless in Ukraine?
Sounds like some Movie title.

You make  good points about certain cities or locations with a larger MOB presence possibly tainting expectations or attitudes (on both sides)
and about people first looking into this not generally taking all the hurdles into account.


Like every scenario  there is a flip side though?

My recent experience.
It is possible to navigate the MOB scene, in a city well known as scam center anymore.
In facet I just dint find it really  that difficult, it just took approaching it without expectation,just like a local date, and neither closing ones eyes, blindly, or being paranoid.

On the ground there, I do see where agency women, particularly in such a city, often have a few things going on, in either preconceived notions, or simply agenda that would make things challenging.
Also see thousands of normal women, single, without any of those issues, that simply have a hard time finding marriage minded local men, so are open to meeting a foreign guy.A rel;tivelty normal m,an going there, with good intentions amnd serious about a relationship with its intent to ultimately lead to marriage and family, still would be in huge demand.


Is it complicated? yes and no.
Yes many men  don't look into  the real difficulties,living in a fantasy, and under estimate the whole thing. Its not picking out a puppy.

However its far from hopeless?
It would be incredible hard for a normal man, truly  interested in relationship /marriage to live there a decent  amount of time and not end up married.
So just how complex is that?Its not, its just the understandable constraints most men traveling on are under changes the dynamic.
I'm not sure it swings it all the way to hopeless,or even to dire.

[Eduard]

Further she said that during Soviet times, rather than thinking we were stupid . . . they actually felt sorry for us.  This was because they were drilled constantly  in school about how lucky they were to be living in the greatest country in the world, and that in America most were poor and only the few rich had a good life.

very different from my experience growing up in the USSR...

[Eduard]

Gator - "Keep in mind that many men do not have the time nor money for repeated trips."

LOL! A man in such a situation, should never try in the first place. 

why not? aren't they entitled to be happily married just because they have a job that limits their time for travel to another country? You chose to go about your search the long and hard way, learning the ropes, making your own mistakes and learning from them. Eventually, if you keep going you may find a good woman for you. However, I personally know men who have jobs that don't allow them getting away for prolonged trips, yet they are happily married and having kids with RW... I think that they would strongly disagree with your statement above.

  This is much more complicated than it appears on the surface.  Don't think otherwise! 

Anything you are not an expert in will appear to be complicated whether it's business, technology or relationships. Once you become an expert in this persuite it will seem quite easy to you. However you need to be prepaired to invest time and money in becoming one. Also you have a limitation of not being a native Russian or Ukrainian speaker. Being one really does make a big difference.

 
... My "hunch" is that this is near hopeless in Ukraine - difficult in Russian and  White Russia. If it were not for a good Plan B, I would feel somewhat defeated:)

My experience is more like: Somewhat difficult in Ukraine, very easy in Russia and easy in White Russia (Belarus)

[ML]

A month or so past the one year mark that my Gal has been here with me in USA.

A couple of new things recently.

For the first time ever, we bickered frequently during one day.
Just the trivial stuff:  That's not where the dish towel goes.
Why is the TV so loud. Why did you forget to get milk.

But we mostly just ignored each others caustic remarks,
and the next days were back to serene bliss.

Also, had our first 'married sex' this week.
Her 'days' were due to start any time; man here doing some backhoe work;
he had to leave for 10 minutes and then we would be busy with him
for several hours; we ran into house undressing as we moved; she was pretty excited about us doing this for first time; it worked.  She told her female friends about it on Skype. 

TMI for you?  Poo Poo Poo

[ML]

Gal accepted the Graduate Teaching  Assistantship.  I didn't really want her to accept it because it will really cut into our 'together' time, but I didn't protest too much.

She pretty pumped about it.  Excited about having an office at the University,  even one that is shared with 3 other GTAs.

Pays over $1500 a month for 9 months.  Yes, piddly money for our comparison, but her 'working friends' back home are incredulous that she gets this much for 15 hours of work a week when most of them are getting less (some less than half) for 40+ hours a week.  All tuition is paid for GTAs also, but she already had a Tuition Scholarship.

I told her 'only in America' could she get all her education expenses paid and also get paid for going to school.

She said, 'not true' as she (along with other top students) got 'spending money' stipends during their entire 5 years at university.

[ML]

I had read a lot of info about the Student Visas before Gal applied.
Knew there were restrictions against such holders working in USA.
Some exceptions for limited on campus work.

With her Graduate Teaching Assistantship, the University knew well how to follow the rules, and they filled out several forms which we took to Social Security office to apply for her SS card.

Gal said, once I get the SS card, I can probably work anywhere.
I agreed saying how could our  government keep track of this.
Yes, I know if SS were withheld, government could identify unauthorized
employers, but are they really going to track this?

But, today her SS card arrived in mail.

On the face are typed the words "VALID FOR WORK ONLY WITH DHS AUTHORIZATION." 

So that will pretty much nix it for working for any place 'Off Campus.'

Which is great by me.

[Muzh]

They are called TAs, not GTAs. Everyone assumes they are in graduate school.

$1500 a month? Not bad. Try $250 a month. Given that was 30 so years ago.

[ML]

The testing never ends for my Gal. 

Before she could have spoken interaction with students as GTA (that's the official name here) she had to get a passing score on TSE (Test of Spoken English) or SPEAK test.

She passed this test.  If she had not passed, she would still keep her GTA but would only be doing grading, etc., until subsequent passing.

I told her she would pass this test because I understood her well.  But she was dubious, saying that parents always understand their young children's gibberish  when no one else does, simply because they spend so much more time with them.

[Note:  I am going to suggest the University change from GTA to GTO.  Sounds a bit more racy.  I had one once (GTO that is) in my wilder youth.]